--- Log opened Thu Dec 12 00:00:35 2019
00:47 < dasunt> Bored as hell, digging through the family tree.  I have one family that entirely disappears.
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01:10 < DrArkaneX> correlate with findagrave
01:10 < DrArkaneX> mine dropped like a rock, then went to findagrave and found the link
01:10 < DrArkaneX> was able to trace my patriarchy back to early 1500s then it drops
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02:22 < dasunt> More complicated.
03:03 < aestetix> oh he left
03:03 < aestetix> I was gonna ask what country
03:04 < aestetix> my family is all from ireland.... which explains our great affinity for drinking lots of beer
06:10 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:12 <@Dolemite> ls
06:16  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
06:16 < aestetix> https://youtube.googleblog.com/2019/12/an-update-to-our-harassment-policy.html yeah this is gonna end well
06:16 < PigBot>  Official YouTube Blog: An update to our harassment policy  (at youtube.googleblog.com) http://tinyurl.com/ss22ab5
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07:29 <@Mirage> Sneaky chinese bastards selling shit on amazon.  look up the company and you get a US address. Had to contact support and most of the updated manual and firmware install/upgrade instructions are in chinese.  Had to get a part to replace a faulty piece and it's shipping from Hong Kong.
08:30 < aestetix> ugh so many meetings
08:35 <@Dolemite> ugh so many cert renewals
08:36 < aestetix> it's that time of year when domain names and ssl certs demand renewal
08:37 <@Mirage> only if you bought them around now
08:40 <@Mirage> dude running the meeting i'm listening to sounds like he should be a DJ on an easy listening station
08:40 <@Mirage> about to put me to sleep
08:41 <@dc0de> Mirage: just picture him masturbating
08:42 <@Dagmar> "We will no longer allow content that maliciously insults someone based on protected attributes such as their race" <-- a whole lotta rap videos will be coming down
08:42 <@Dagmar> So far this policy update seems reasonable
08:43 < aestetix> and fauxminists who hate white men
08:43 <@Dagmar> Just, regulating assholes on the internet is a bit like saying "we're going to make gasoline safe for drinking by making it non-combustive"
08:43 < aestetix> unless you want to argue that white isn't a race, something which I will agee with
08:43 <@Mirage> but it's totally cool for black artists/actors/etc to say things like nigger or cracker multiple times per minute..
08:44 <@Dagmar> aestetix: Yeah a lot of frothing fauxminists are about to be ejected at speed, which is probably a good thing
08:44 <@Dagmar> Mirage: Probably not anymore
08:44 < aestetix> Dagmar: I highly doubt that
08:44 < aestetix> I wish that would happen
08:44 <@Dagmar> "We will no longer allow content that maliciously insults someone based on..."
08:44 < aestetix> This whole thing was prompted by Twitter outrage at Youtube
08:44 <@Dagmar> There's sooo much of that in fauxminist videos
08:44 < aestetix> They are not going to do something that generates more Twitter outrage
08:45 < aestetix> oh I agree
08:45 <@Dagmar> Dude, nothing doesn't generate Twitter "outrage"
08:45 < aestetix> haha
08:45 <@Dagmar> We've got a massive blogger/"news site" ecosystem that survives off manufacturing outrage
08:45 < xray> Now that outrage is a virtue they will have to ban a lot of videos.
08:46 <@Dagmar> So, they could announce that they're declaring next Tuesday to be "Tuesday" and someone would want to fucking argue that they're authoritarian fascists
08:46 <@Dagmar> All the ridiculous outrage and hate towards others is not healthy and it's not constructive
08:46 <@Dagmar> ...and being used as virtue-signaling is just fucking insanity
08:46 < aestetix> The word you're looking for is destructive
08:47 <@Dagmar> No.
08:47 <@Mirage> Pandering to all the whiners isn't helping anything.  What they should be doing is just telling them to shut the fuck up and not read/watch/listen if they don't like it.
08:47 <@Dagmar> I don't care that it's "destructive"
08:47 < aestetix> The outage is destructive
08:47 < aestetix> oh ok
08:47 <@Dagmar> I care that it is _not_ constructive while it's being claimed that it is
08:47 <@Dagmar> It's very easy to demonstrate that it's wasting time
08:48 <@Dagmar> None of that histrionic bullshit is actually attempting to approach understanding
08:48 < aestetix> yep
08:48 <@Dagmar> Exactly none of it is trying to see the things from the other person's side
08:49 <@Dagmar> It's basically xenophobia, ethniocentrism, and a little bit "nucking futz" all rolled into one
08:50 <@Dagmar> Flood the twitternets with 99% hate-filled garbage, and there's just no chance for any "constructive" dialogs to take place
08:50  * aestetix hires Dagmar to be the channel diversity counselor
08:50 <@Dagmar> Not a fucking chance
08:51 <@Dagmar> As much as I believe in free-speeech, that's the sort of "position" that is going to always be fighting a losing battle
08:51 < xray> Just don't use twitter.
08:51 < aestetix> ^
08:51 <@Dagmar> It *always* requires authoritarianism.
08:51 < aestetix> The few times I unblock twitter from my DNS to check something, I always regret it
08:51 <@Dagmar> Just because the level pedants and malcontents will go to in order to buck the system
08:52 <@Dagmar> THey gish gallop like a shark swims.
08:52 <@Dagmar> No one can be an effective arbiter without authoritarianism, which simply means you're painting a fucking target on your head
08:53 <@Dagmar> I am *fine* with simply driving trolls away with sticks and fire.
08:53 <@Dagmar> I don't need a title.
08:54 <@Dagmar> Frankly, this whole scenario woudl be a lot different if the vast majority of internet users werne't on an asymmetric connection
08:54 < xray> There are none of the self correcting behavior of non-anonymous speech. You monitor what you say and how you say it when there is a real chance of getting punched in the nose by the person you are saying it to. This self correction mechanism doesn't exist in online systems.
08:54 < aestetix> on the plus side
08:55 <@Dagmar> Now that G+ is gone there's just about nowhere an average person can put something up where the entire internet can hear it without the approval of large media conglomerates
08:55 <@Dagmar> They can't run their own webserver
08:55 < aestetix> twitter is fantastic, because I can usually look for keywords in someone's twitter profile which tell me I should ignore anything they say
08:55 <@Dagmar> THey can't stream their own podcasts
08:55 <@Mirage> I honestly don't think most people really see the difference between making a valid argumentative statement and being a troll, and therefore fail to filter out the trolls
08:56 <@Dagmar> So they've been conditioned to believe their opinion and value set doesn't really matter, and they sit quietly by while dipshits who don't care blow up every civil discourse
08:56 < xray> I find that real discussions that change minds are with people you know face to face.
08:57 <@Mirage> Of course I, and I'm sure everyone else in here, has at one point thought that someone asking a valid question or presenting a valid argument was trolling when they were being completely serious
08:57 <@Dagmar> xray: And let's not forget the results of being bombarded with a specific mindset from multiple news outlets
08:57 < aestetix> xray: yep
08:58 <@Dagmar> If the media groups wanted to say the sky was green, they could just start talking about how green it was, and after a few weeks people would be going outside to their cars and thinking it was nice the sky was back to it's "usual blue color"
08:58 < aestetix> I think one of the issues that's causing political polarity right now is that the left and the right have redefined words to mean different things
08:58 < aestetix> and it's impossible to keep track of it unless you follow the group on twitter
08:59 < xray> I have a responsibility to filter out the noise and find the truth. If I find that the noise in an information source is to high I just drop it as a source.
08:59 < aestetix> yep
08:59 <@Dagmar> xray: Except most people don't have the skill, time, or knowledge to be able to make that distinction
08:59 < aestetix> Reminds me of the time a far-leftist friend informed me that asking what a dog-whistle was was itself a dog-whistle
08:59 < aestetix> (I'm still not entirely sure what the term means)
08:59 <@Dagmar> It requires a moderately adept level of critical thinking
08:59 < xray> Someone once told me that if something is important enough someone would call me on the phone and tell me.
09:00 <@Dagmar> aestetix: McCarthyism had rather a lot of it
09:01 < xray> So I try to spend the majority of my time working on things I have direct control over and interacting with people I actually know. This is one of the few virtual forums I talk in that I haven't met everyone face to face.
09:01 < aestetix> it did
09:01 <@Dagmar> aestetix: ...and you can't tell me you've not noticed "Make America Great Again"
09:01 <@Dagmar> Sounds like a good plan, right?
09:01 < aestetix> oh man
09:02 <@Dagmar> Except it really means, "Make Oligarchy via the GOP into your new glorious Masters"
09:02 < aestetix> you know... this whole "you're with us or you're against us"
09:02 <@Dagmar> yes
09:02 < aestetix> I didn't like it when bush used it in 2002
09:02 < aestetix> and I don't like it now
09:02 <@Dagmar> aestetix: False dichotomies are the bread and fuckin' butter of deceptive assholes
09:02 <@Mirage> Anyone else been enjoying the clips of the republicans defending Trump regarding the impeachment papers?
09:02 < xray> I think a better slogan would be "get your shit together". We can only change ourselves and though that try to influence others we know to change as well, knowing that they may chose not to.
09:03 < aestetix> Mirage: I've been ignoring all of that
09:03 < aestetix> I already know what the outcome will be
09:03 < aestetix> Seems not useful to pay any attention to it
09:03 <@Dagmar> The obvious utter failure of the rule of law.
09:03 <@Mirage> I only watch what they show in the evening news while I'm waiting on the weather report.
09:04 <@Dagmar> They've got a evry nice laundry list of the things that the system, as it presently stands, is going to almost certainly quietly sweep under the rug as if it were nothing.
09:04 < xray> Everything happening in Washington is political theater and should be viewed as entertainment and not reality.
09:04 <@Dagmar> I can think of no better way to show America that they are *not* represented.
09:04 <@Dagmar> Not even a little bit represented.
09:04 < aestetix> well this is why I keep pushing people to get involved in local government
09:04 <@Dagmar> That as things stand, they are no better than chattel of the state.
09:04 <@Mirage> I haven't checked, but I'm willing to bet that none of the people who are being extremely vocal are up for re-election
09:04 < aestetix> especially if you can get local laws passed that challenge federal government laws
09:05 <@Dagmar> ...and it's time to start getting serious about making politicians terrified about upsetting milllions of people.
09:05 < xray> aestetix: I have been working with local government for some time and found that we the people have very little if any influence.
09:05 < aestetix> xray: yeah but at least you can go to city hall and complain
09:05 < xray> It sounds good on paper but doesn't work well in practice.
09:05 < aestetix> The last I checked, you can't walk into congress and complain about the NSA
09:05 < aestetix> (for example)
09:05 <@Dagmar> You can also go to the alley _behind_ City Hall and complain, and get the same result
09:06 < aestetix> lol
09:06 < xray> Yes I can do that but it is a waste of the little time that I have.
09:06 < xray> Dagmar: My experience totally agrees.
09:06 <@Dagmar> They've won their election through media saturation, funded by the groups of people who actually _do_ have a say, and are doing their best to rearrange society solely to their benefit.
09:06 <@Dagmar> THey literally don't care about everyone else.
09:07 < aestetix> sigh
09:07 < aestetix> on the one hand, I'm glad trump won, because he exposed how broken the system is
09:07 < aestetix> on the other hand..... boy he really is something else....
09:07 <@Dagmar> ALl they have to do there is stand and _pretend_ 'the system' works when they're in front of a camera so the illuaion is maintained
09:07 < xray> It seems that you have to be a sociopath (I think that is the right term) in order to be any good as a "politician".
09:07 <@Dagmar> That business where polticians were getting chased out of restaurants awhile back?
09:07 <@Dagmar> We need more of that
09:08 <@Dagmar> We need _much_ more of that
09:08 < aestetix> basically the only thing I agree with trump on is that political correctness is terrible
09:08 < aestetix> that doesn't mean racism etc is good
09:08 <@Dagmar> We need for each and every politician who is doing nothing but working towards enslaving everyone else to be terrfied of the harassment and abuse they'll suffer by going out in public and trying to pretend "they're one of use"
09:09 < aestetix> Dagmar: how about ending the congressional health care package
09:09 < aestetix> And forcing politicians to have health care plans like everyone else
09:09 <@Dagmar> We need it to be an absolute nightmare for them to try to walk through a crowd of the public, shaking hands
09:09 < aestetix> dealing with open enrollment, companies denying claims, etc
09:10 <@Dagmar> Because if they're *seen* being spit on, cursed at, and generally reviled for the terrible things they're doing, suddenly a lot more people will realize that they wildly outnumber these assholes
09:10 <@Dagmar> That they do have a say, because there's a whole crapload of average joes who _are_ reasonable people
09:10 <@Dagmar> THey're not the only sane person in their circle.
09:11 <@Dagmar> Most people's daily interactions involve less than 20 people
09:11 <@Dagmar> ...but two to three times that through media entities.
09:11 < aestetix> so
09:11 < aestetix> is there a way to solve this issue
09:12 <@Dagmar> An honest assessment of what's going on around them is literally drowned out by the garbage being pumped into the atmosphere by media outlets and the politicians they represent
09:12 <@Dagmar> aestetix: yeah it's called "revolution" but a gilded cage is still a cage and it's very hard to have such a thing without everything getting a whole lot worse for the downtrodden in the short-term
09:13 <@Dagmar> How much have you heard about Iran lately?
09:13 <@Dagmar> How much have you been seeing on global news about the ongoing shitshow that is Hong Kong?
09:13 <@Dagmar> That first-world areas are undergoing massive unrest over the same shit we have going on over here?
09:14 <@Dagmar> The media projects the image that everything is just dandy, people see it, and they continue going to work and paying their taxes and being basically treated like sheep
09:15 <@Dagmar> So you basically _don't_ see that Hong Kong is actually having systemic financial issues because a mininum of 10% of the population has been in the streets yelling angrily for the last six months
09:15 <@Dagmar> You don't find out that in Iran, people actually burned a whole bunch of banks pretty much to the ground
09:15 <@Corydon76> aestetix: On Congressional healthcare, they *do* have the same healthcare as everyone else:  individual or employer health plans.  They have an employer health plan.
09:16 <@Dagmar> Corydon76: They can also afford to purchase additional coverage
09:17 <@Dagmar> ...but their employer-provided healthcare is nothing like everyone else's
09:17 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: but that's because to be elected, you have to effectively be rich already.
09:17 <@Dagmar> The knee surgery I had, both times, made my right leg the size of my arm
09:17 <@Corydon76> I dunno, I think their health care plans are similar to Detroit's, and by that I mean the unionized auto makers.
09:18 <@Dagmar> Both times, the insurance company attempted to claim I did not even _need_ physical therapy assistance to correct that, because I wasn't an athelete
09:18 <@Dagmar> Like, I didn't have a _need_ to be able to walk normally.
09:18 <@Dagmar> How the fuck that's not a basic "need" I have no idea
09:18 <@Dagmar> I gaurantee you that shit doesn't happen with the insurance plans the gov't has for Congress
09:19 <@Corydon76> You won't get me to defend insurance companies.
09:19 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: maybe not to Congress critters, but their staff has the same healthcare, and I'm sure they get screwed pretty regularly
09:19 <@Dagmar> We've got an economic balance issue here that means you are either independently wealthy, or you basically get whatever healthcare is left over
09:20 <@Dagmar> i.e., you are part of "the system" or cattle have better health care than you
09:20 <@Corydon76> We have a few mutual friends who run in those circles and can probably testify... I'm thinking Rattle and Timball.
09:20 <@Corydon76> Whereever the hell they are now.
09:21 < aestetix> Isn't rattle with cfr or something
09:21 < aestetix> timball no idea
09:21 <@Corydon76> Last I heard, rattle was in Boston doing something security related, but I honestly have no idea.  He did work in DC for some period, though
09:22 <@Dolemite> Rattle moved out of his PAC role
09:22 <@Dolemite> He's back to doing security, but I thought he was in NYC
09:22 <@Mirage> ugh...new customer is using DiamondIP.  *runs*
09:24 < aestetix> Have they been to PhreakNIC recently?
09:24 <@Corydon76> Not that I'm aware of, though I had to miss PhreakNIC last year.
09:24 < aestetix> has decius?
09:25 <@Corydon76> Not in several years.
09:25 <@Corydon76> I think Dagmar is the only person with founder status who shows up to PhreakNIC.
09:25 < aestetix> no jonnyx?
09:26 <@Corydon76> No.
09:26 <@Dolemite> I'm pretty sure jonnyx ran out of "I only have another year to live" diseases
09:27 <@Corydon76> Elonka's leadership sidelined his ability to do whatever he wanted, and he hasn't been back since.
09:29 <@Corydon76> I think the good thing is that new leadership has concentrated efforts on getting a new generation involved, and if anything, that's the main thrust for PhreakNIC to continue long term.
09:30 <@Corydon76> Everybody originally involved has matured to the point where they're no longer interested in an excuse to party and listen to technical talks.  All of that still happens, but to a much lesser and more muted level.
09:30 < aestetix> s/matured/aged/
09:32 <@Corydon76> PhreakNIC is more family friendly, now, which is good, because I think it'll attract back the people who originally partied and now have kids of their own.
09:37 <@Dolemite> It's good to see it continuing to evolve
09:46 <@dc0de> I'm glad that it hasn't devolved into DEFCON.
09:52 < aestetix> dc0de: you mean fat middle aged government employee con?
09:52 <@Dolemite> Wait, what?   They have a conference for me, now?
09:53 < aestetix> or I guess..... given jeff moss
09:53 < aestetix> it could be called Sellout-con
10:33 <@Mirage> back to our earlier "just about anything can/will offend someone" discussion, I was just reminded of having to go in and change "purge" in squirrelmail to something else because it had offended people with bolemia, even though in IMAP "purge" is the standard/accepted term used for emptying the "trash" folder.
10:45 < aestetix> ..... what
10:46 <@Mirage> Yeah...that was back at VU
11:03 <@Dolemite> [LOL
11:09 <@Mirage> hrm, just saw this.  Probably old news for some of you.  https://www.reviewjournal.com/entertainment/tv/rene-auberjonois-actor-on-benson-star-trek-dies-at-79-1909832/
11:09 < PigBot> René Auberjonois, actor on ‘Benson,’ ‘Star Trek,’ dies at 79 | Las Vegas Review-Journal (at www.reviewjournal.com) http://tinyurl.com/s4oe6es
11:46 <@Mirage> um, yeah...fuck ebay + google.  Browsed to ebay w/ chrome vs my normal firefox (because firefox has broken the shit out of video streaming) and now somehow my google account is linked to ebay and i'm getting 2-3 bullshit emails a day.
12:46 <@Evilpig> I saw that yesterday or so.  RIP odo
13:38 <@Dagmar> Mirage: People just don't understand the kind of silly nonsense that would go on there
13:41 <@Dagmar> ..and not signed by any keys that you've *ahem* signed off on
13:41 <@Dagmar> @#$%#$%
13:57 <@Mirage> scheduled for 3 meetings right now, so joined 2 of them and am splitting attention...which apparently makes me the asshole in at least one of them because i'm not fulling paying attention and engaging in the meeting.
13:58 <@Mirage> too bad there's not some calender functionality in Outlook that shows when ppl are busy and shit...oh, wait, there is..
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 13 00:00:36 2019