--- Log opened Thu Nov 15 00:00:05 2018 00:00 -!- EnabrinTain [sid11525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uwsuubtltxyuktrh] has joined #se2600 00:00 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o EnabrinTain] by ChanServ 06:19 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez! 06:20 * aestetix hugs Dolemite 06:50 < aestetix> https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-46200010 06:50 < PigBot> Brexit latest - May faces Commons grilling after resignations - BBC News (at www.bbc.com) http://tinyurl.com/yc9zqeyb 06:50 < aestetix> in case anyone wants to watch 06:50 < aestetix> she's getting grilled hard 07:43 <@Corydon76> They really need a second voter referendum on the deal, whether to go forward with what they have, or put it off. 07:43 <@Corydon76> And have no real Brexit until the voters approve such a drastic political shift 07:44 < aestetix> There's no good way out of it. 07:45 <@Corydon76> They've got 90 days before the hard break, so they've got time for an election 07:45 <@Corydon76> Might also be an election for a new PM 07:46 < aestetix> That's not going to happen. 07:47 <@Corydon76> On the morning news this morning, there was a threat of a nocon vote. 07:47 < aestetix> what is nocon? 07:47 <@Corydon76> No Confidence. If they get to 48, then the government is dissolved, and they hold a new election 07:47 < aestetix> oh 07:48 < aestetix> So basically it boils down to.... what is the least horrible path, and will there be an agreement to take it 08:04 <@Corydon76> They really boxed themselves into a corner on this one 08:07 < aestetix> Yep. 08:16 -!- dfused [~flajackun@c-71-197-193-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:22 -!- dfused [~flajackun@c-71-197-193-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 09:14 < dasunt> 90 days for a new election, then finding a path out? Seems very rushed. 09:16 < aestetix> I mean, Brexit was approved by like 50.1% or something 09:17 < aestetix> If they hold a new election, one of two things will happen. It will either be reaffirmed, in which case they are doubly fucked, or reversed, and likely reversed by 50.1% again 09:17 < aestetix> which will then piss off 49.9%, and cause a lot more problems than currently exist 09:17 < aestetix> Plus it will teach the lesson that if you don't like the result of a vote, just vote again. 09:17 < aestetix> There is really no good way out of it. 09:33 <@opticron> the brexit referendum was non-binding, iirc, so they could just opt not to or delay it forever 09:36 <@opticron> admittedly, that would also be a bad precedent to set 09:37 < aestetix> yeah ask greece how that worked out 10:11 < dasunt> Maybe they should have thought this out beforehand. 10:11 < dasunt> Because at this point, the UK's purpose is going to be to serve as a warning to other EU member states. 10:12 <@rhia> iirc, they didn't really explain to the people what they had in mind when they basically snuck it on the ballot 10:13 < dasunt> Wasn't what most people had in mind for Brexit was Hail Britannia forever? 10:14 <@rhia> most people didn't understand what Brexit was -- kinda the way the people putting it on the ballot wanted 10:17 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfstsymcjmrmjppp] has joined #se2600 11:06 < dasunt> This whole "fuck the politicians" attitude we have in regards to voting kinda sucks. 11:11 <@Evilpig> I've had that attitude toward them for a long time but it wasn't based around voting 11:12 <@Evilpig> for the most part politicians are out of touch with their base and are off just doing whatever the fuck they want based on the opinions of whatever cackling idiot is closest to them 11:12 -!- Synx_hm [~Synx_hm@unaffiliated/synx-hm/x-1623004] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12 -!- Synx_hm [~Synx_hm@unaffiliated/synx-hm/x-1623004] has joined #se2600 11:14 < dasunt> Well, I dislike my fair share of politicians, but I'm not choosing my beliefs based on whatever mainstream politicians are against. 12:01 < K`Tetch> 08:43:57 «@Corydon76» And have no real Brexit until the voters approve such a drastic political shift <-- not how it works. the 2 year clock was started, if there's no deal by the time it expires in March, then the uk leaves with no deal 12:01 -!- PigBot [~PigBot@wilpig.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch: I'm not saying how it is; I'm advocating for how it ought to be. 12:01 < K`Tetch> oh I know 12:02 < K`Tetch> and if you have any qusetions, feel free to ask, I've got a little bit of knowledge ont he subject... 12:02 <@Corydon76> I am absolutely aware that the politicians have painted themselves into a corner, and the only way out is to dive off the ledge and hope they don't break their necks. 12:03 < K`Tetch> (having worked on a few general election campaigns, ran a multi-country EU election, and intimately followed the negotiations of the lisbon treaty0 12:03 < K`Tetch> oh, it's a neck breaker regardless, it's just a matter of everyone else having their necks broken too, and if that means dath, or perminant invalid status 12:11 <@Corydon76> I think once the reality of Brexit does set in, the citizens will ask to rejoin the EU. 12:12 <@Corydon76> although I suspect the EU is going to demand additional concessions. 12:14 < K`Tetch> oh, there'll be a lot of changes for a start 12:14 < K`Tetch> no rebate, no exemptions from certain parts of EU regulations 12:15 < K`Tetch> under article 49, we have to joi with a clean slate 12:15 < K`Tetch> however, until the day of leaving, the UK can cancel its article 50 notification, and carry on like before 12:43 < dasunt> Maybe the painting into a corner was intentional? 12:44 < dasunt> Any Brexit deal is going to suck. Using the Brexit cliff to force a deal may be the only way to get a deal. 12:44 < K`Tetch> its going to suck.. for the UK. Not for the EU 12:45 < dasunt> It'll suck for the EU as well. Just not as bad.l 12:45 < K`Tetch> 'If you dont give me a deal, I'm going to punch myself in the testicles. see, that'll make you give me a good deal' 12:45 < K`Tetch> no, it really won't suck for the EU, not at all 12:45 < dasunt> It's like if Texas decided to peacefully leave the union. We'd miss some of their economic output, as well as them as a market. But Texas is going to be hurting a lot more as it drops out of every trade deal and finds new barriers to its supply chains. 12:48 < dasunt> RationalWiki has an alt-right glossary. 12:49 < K`Tetch> the disruption in't as bad as you'd think. and it's less texas, and more... washington state 12:49 < dasunt> What percentage of the EU economy does the UK make up? 12:49 < K`Tetch> in services, about 15-20 12:49 < K`Tetch> in goods about 8% 12:49 < K`Tetch> I think (i don't have the numbers to hand) 12:50 < dasunt> Checked Wikipedia. Nominally, it's the second largest contributor to the EU GDP, but well behind Germany. 12:50 < K`Tetch> by contrast, the EU makes up soemthing like 50-55% of UKexports and 44% of imports 12:51 < K`Tetch> that gdp contribution includes domestic GDP right 12:51 <@rhia> cool, so WA can secede and the US won't miss us? Sweet. 12:51 * rhia rambles off to petition Canada for provinceship 12:51 < K`Tetch> or you talking interstate gdp? 12:51 < dasunt> UK makes up about 15% of the EU nominal GDP, it seems. 12:52 < aestetix> K`Tetch: is there any good way out of this? 12:52 < aestetix> I watched most of the parliamentary "questions" today... more like yelling really 12:52 < dasunt> aestetix: Everyone can pretend nothing happened and go with the status quo. 12:52 < K`Tetch> aestetix - pmq is always like that 12:53 < K`Tetch> and yes, they can cancel the A50 notification 12:53 < aestetix> K`Tetch: I watch it on occasion. It's not usually more than 2 hours long, and it's not usually so heated 12:53 < K`Tetch> it gets heated any time there's a hot story 12:54 < dasunt> Huh, it would be more like California leaving the US, judging by GDP. 12:54 < aestetix> well yeah. If poland were leaving the EU, nobody would care anywhere near as much 12:54 < K`Tetch> i stopped watchign it, because usually the questions are more important than the answers (the answers are usually non-answers, the qustions indicate what the parties are thinking) 12:55 < aestetix> K`Tetch: well the questions are often statements that begin with "surely you'd agree that...?" 12:55 < aestetix> or "would the prime minister join me in ___" 12:55 < K`Tetch> aestetix - thats parliamentary ettiquete 12:55 < aestetix> yes I know 12:55 < aestetix> but that's not really a question, is it :) 12:55 < K`Tetch> i mean they can't ask a direct blunt question 12:56 < aestetix> to quote cory doctorow, "questions are not long rambling statements that end with 'so what do you think?'" 12:56 < dasunt> Actually, roughly like California by area as well (UK is 5.4% of the EU, CA is 4.3% of the US) 12:56 < K`Tetch> lots of restrictions onw hat can and can't be done in parliament. for isntance, uk tv can't use parliamentary footage for comedy pursopes 12:57 < dasunt> And close to population as well. 12:57 < K`Tetch> so shows like 'have i got news for you' can't use any clips at all 12:57 < dasunt> So basically, Brexit ~= California succession. 12:57 <@rhia> dasunt, don't crush the dream 12:57 < K`Tetch> so what's alaska? finland? 12:58 < aestetix> dasunt: nah, the EU is pissed at Brexit. Whereas I think much of the US would welcome California seceeding :) 12:58 <@rhia> WA shares a border with Canada, they can absorb us easily, esp if we won't be missed ;) 12:58 < dasunt> K`Tetch: Danged if I know. Only checked the closest states for GDP and Area, then I ran the population and it was closed as well. 12:58 < dasunt> rhia: If Canada gets Washington, they have to take Minnesota as well. We're far more socialist than WA. 12:59 < dasunt> Plus the accents here often have Canadian rising. 12:59 <@rhia> get in line 12:59 < aestetix> dasunt: I'm guessing wisconsin would come along with you 12:59 < K`Tetch> area percentage wse - Georgia is closer to the UK in actual area 12:59 < dasunt> Wisconsin elected Scott Walker and Paul Ryan. They can rot in hell. 12:59 < dasunt> I mean Trumpland. 13:00 < K`Tetch> (I'm also REALLY glad I don't have to go to cairo tommorow night for a football game) 13:00 <@rhia> ok, compromise - WA & Oregon from the Cascades west -- then we'll be socialist enough 13:00 <@rhia> eastern WA is nearly western Idaho anyway 13:01 < dasunt> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland_map 13:03 <@rhia> https://www.npr.org/2018/11/15/668296045/ranked-choice-voting-delivers-another-victory-to-house-democrats <--more, please -- with paper ballot trails, too, kthnxbai 13:04 * rhia has argued for ranked choice voting for y e a r s 13:16 < aestetix> speaking of brexit 13:16 < aestetix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYS9EQWkXg 13:39 < dasunt> I liked RCV. 13:40 < dasunt> But whatever, we don't get it. :( 13:40 < dasunt> I would also like to see automatic redistricting. 13:44 < dasunt> I suspect there's a better way to do redistricting instead of the usual splitline algorithm. 13:50 <@rhia> that's still better than letting politicians pick their voters which is the gerrymandered mess we have now 13:51 <@rhia> https://www.rangevoting.org/GerryExamples.html 13:53 <@rhia> there's a variant: https://bdistricting.com/2010/ 14:03 < dasunt> Sure, I think splitline > current system. 14:05 < dasunt> I suspect though that if you asked each voter what neighbor they felt closest to, and have a choice of 8 (N, NE, E), etc, with town names or whatever magnitude you need for districting, then build a undirected graph and use the splitline algorithm on that, you may combine similar groups better. 14:06 < dasunt> But splitline alone may be good enough. 14:08 < dasunt> I do think splitline really needs to follow political boundaries though, like county boundaries. 14:09 < dasunt> Btw: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/#Compact 14:10 < dasunt> I do have to say though, I like the "Promote highly competitive districts" option on that page. 14:11 <@rhia> was just going to make that comment 14:12 <@rhia> but i would want to get money OUT of politics before that or we'd be in 24/7/365 END OF CAMPAIGN FLOOD THE AIRWAVES POLITICAL ADS 14:13 < dasunt> The compact districts gives us 99 out of 438 as highly competitive. 14:13 <@rhia> because those are increasing worse (more strident and more often) the more competitive the race 14:13 < dasunt> Highly competitive gies 242/438. Which is awesome. And we'd may see more centralist candidates then. 14:16 <@rhia> only public funding of elections, ranked choice voting, paper ballots, and highly competitive districting - would possibly, eh, probably, not put the current dumpster fire in the oval office 14:30 <@Dagmar> Frankly, I'd rather see mexican knife fights used to resolve who takes a seat when there's more than one man running 14:30 <@Dagmar> Just so long as someone dies 14:49 -!- NotLarry [~NotLarry@c-68-53-121-109.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53 -!- NotLarry [~NotLarry@c-68-53-121-109.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 14:53 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o NotLarry] by ChanServ 15:13 < dasunt> I'd be okay with more knife fights in politics. 16:02 < dasunt> So basically, Florida put shitty voting machines in what was a district that lead more democratic, and now the shitty voting machines can't do the recount? 16:15 <@Dagmar> Voting machine selection is about maximizing kickbacks while minimizing unmatched feature bullet points 16:15 <@Dagmar> The best devices become the ones which look good on paper, but are indistinguishable from lowest-bidder contracts because of the kickbacks 16:16 <@oddball> Doesn't help that the county's voting commisioner has a long history of ignoring voting laws. 16:17 <@oddball> Oh, and there's reports of them "discovering" new boxes of votes, video recordings of them mishandling the paper ballots, and actually barring the appointed observers from the room as they tally the votes. 16:57 <@Dagmar> Maybe some people with guns need to show up and defend their rights 16:57 <@Dagmar> Also, this is why Antifa are sniveling bitches 16:58 <@Dagmar> THey're totally willing to go out and grant a handful of neo-nazis the attention they so desperately deserve, but when there's _actual evil_ and _actual fascism_ and _actual misdeeds_ involved, they're nowhere to be found 16:59 <@oddball> Well, in this case, it's fraud in the favor of the Dems, so... 16:59 <@Dagmar> That it's fraud _at all_ is a problem 16:59 <@oddball> You're absolutely correct. 17:00 <@oddball> But Antifa is a bunch of hypocriticaly asshats. 17:43 <@rhia> you mean the fraud the right leaning FL sec of state and LEOs can't find any evidence of? yeah, Broward has a history of issues, but prior issues do not equal current fraud 17:43 <@rhia> https://www.factcheck.org/2018/11/bogus-voter-fraud-claims/ 17:53 <@rhia> antifa may be hypocritical but what is wrong, exactly, with being anti-fascist? oh, and considering who antifa tends to come up against, well . . . https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article159376054.html 18:27 < Synx_hm> hey anybody in want of a large duplex laser printer, it needs some toner, OkiData C5800Ldn 18:27 < Synx_hm> in Nashville area 18:29 < Synx_hm> it has the network card too btw, and the duplexer, its large think it can print A4 but i cant recall off the top of my head the size it goes up to 18:29 < Synx_hm> single paper tray holds about a full ream of 8.5/11, thing weights a lot 18:32 -!- NotLarry [~NotLarry@c-68-53-121-109.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:40 -!- NotLarry [~NotLarry@c-68-53-121-109.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 18:40 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o NotLarry] by ChanServ 20:20 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfstsymcjmrmjppp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] --- Log closed Fri Nov 16 00:00:06 2018