--- Log opened Mon Oct 29 00:00:39 2018
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01:09 < K`Tetch> aestetix - I've spent time there, know a lto of eople there, and observe a lot of the politics going on there still. It's not 'far left', just as it's not in cambridge Mass, no matter how much CharlesG claims it has been. Ends up with people thinking libertarianism is centrist, and opposition to it (which ends up skewing right) goes 'far left'. The opposite of Libertarianism is 'civilization'
01:36 < aestetix> So once again you accuse me of being Libertarian
01:36 < aestetix> And if you don't consider the bay area far left, I'm curious what you *do* consider to be far left.
01:39 < aestetix> (I generally define far left as being in favor of equality of outcome, something I strongly oppose. And it's all over the place there)
01:46 < K`Tetch> oh boy, there's a lot that's part of 'leftist', and liberal isn't the same as 'leftist'
01:48 < K`Tetch> there's no actual 'leftism' in action in the US, not even really center-left.
01:50 < K`Tetch> best way I can put it is that 'left and right' are both relative positions, and absolute positions, but 'liberal' and 'conservative' are... "vectors" describing the attempst to move from there here-and-now, to a future non-specific end point n a rough left or right direction
01:52 < K`Tetch> in some ways, the bay area is pretty right
01:54 < K`Tetch> I mean, I don't see much in the way of government ownership of hte businesses there, do you? no nationalisation of facebook, or Apple, or any tech giant. No large social housing projects - it's pretty like the DC 'burbs' in as many (if ot more) ways than it's different
02:06 < aestetix> K`Tetch: ah ok that's reasonable.
02:06 < aestetix> So maybe the definitions are loaded.
02:07 < aestetix> I've also found that what I consider left and right are very different from what europeans (at least germans) do
02:07 < aestetix> And ftw, when I say "regressive left", it is specifically referring to people who try to shut down or censor things they don't like.
02:08 < aestetix> So it doesn't apply, for example, to people who support Obamacare.
02:08 < aestetix> (since regress is the opposite of progress, and I generally consider censorship regression)
02:08 < K`Tetch> not everything is censorship though
02:08 < K`Tetch> its often thrown aroudn inacuracytely
02:09 < aestetix> Now in terms of government control, the bay area actually does have a lot of government control issues
02:09 < K`Tetch> but since its now 3am, and i've been editing videos for the last 15 hours, I'm too tired to focus more on things
02:09 < aestetix> Such as the zoning laws, property codes, etc
02:09 < aestetix> oh ok
02:09 < aestetix> glad to oblige :)
02:10 < K`Tetch> but look up 'militant' in the UK for an example of the left. especially wrt Liverpool.
02:12 < aestetix> K`Tetch: I can reply more if you want, but maybe it's best to wait until you've rested
02:12 < aestetix> Since sleep is imporant
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06:13 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:30  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
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08:42 < synxhm> sup peeps
08:43 < synxhm> anybody have a line on job openings in nashville area or remote, im still out of work since getting laid off in sept :(
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08:49 <@Dolemite> Are you on Facebook?   If so, are you in the group that RC Martinez created, "InfoSec and IT Jobs"?
08:52 < synxhm> on facebook yes and no not in that group
08:55 < synxhm> does it have the hackers picture splash?
08:55 <@Corydon76> Yes
08:56 < synxhm> cool, thanks! i sent in a join request
08:56 < synxhm> this is probably the first time ive been on facebook in over 2 years
08:57 < synxhm> ive been blasting linked in applications like its my job
08:57 < synxhm> well it kinda is my job actually, finding a job that is
08:57 < synxhm> ha
08:58 < synxhm> also using whoishiring.io
08:58 <@Dolemite> LinkedIn == Dumpster Fire
08:58 < synxhm> unfortunantly the leads i was really sure would get me a job all just kinda went stale, all my contacts just cant get traction and it probably doesn't help its coming up on dec
08:58 < synxhm> Dolemite, agreed eleventy percent
08:59 < synxhm> ive been out of work since 7 sept, shit is starting to really get me down
08:59 <@Dolemite> What discipline of IT are you skilled/interested in?
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09:01 < synxhm> therein lies part of the issue, i exited a company where i did voip solutions testing, as in we delivered large scale testing of call centers from things like dropping 10K calls into your call center and answering them with our equipment to measure performance etc
09:01 < synxhm> i delivered and setup/designed the testing so i was mostly deep in packet captures and helping customers figure out what and where their network/voip performance issues were
09:02 < synxhm> but the issue is i dont have any specific cisco, avaya, genesys certs as all my work was hand holding the customer not doing actual config for them just helping point them in the right direction
09:03 < synxhm> but id love to branch out into devops or netsec, or hell even developing i have lowlevel embedded C experience and lately been learning golang
09:05 <@Dolemite> FYI, for those interested...   https://cyberforcecompetition.com/
09:05 < PigBot> CyberForce Competition™ – A DOE Cyber Defense Competition (at cyberforcecompetition.com) http://tinyurl.com/ybgn45t3
09:05 < synxhm> im rapidly approaching the point of applying at a grocery store haha, i have noticed at least here in town that every publix i go into the staff are super friendly and happy looking, kroger not so much though
09:06 <@_NSAKEY> synxhm: I'm pretty sure my old employer is still looking for NOC people. They'd probably stick you on overnights, and I'm sure the pay is shittier than it was when I was there, but it's probably better than a grocery store.
09:06 <@opticron> I hear publix takes care of their employees, too
09:06 < synxhm> Dolemite, wonder why DOE is sponsoring that, i guess DOD/USAF Cyber command would be a bit odd
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09:07 <@Dolemite> synxhm: Well the focus is on protecting energy systems
09:07 < synxhm> _NSAKEY, ya ive been working 100% remote for the past 6 years so just going to an office is going to be a change but my family situation is not such that i could work second shift but like you said if it gets to it ill have to do something to make a living
09:07 <@Dolemite> The scenario is "Big Oil Company"
09:07 < synxhm> Dolemite, oh duh i should have read more
09:08 <@_NSAKEY> synxhm: Last time I heard anything, they were having trouble filling the 12 AM - 10 AM shift.
09:08 <@_NSAKEY> aka, my old shift.
09:08 <@Dolemite> Also, Costco is another company that treats employees very well.
09:09 < synxhm> Dolemite, i have also heard that, one of the workers at our first kids daycare left to go there because of pay and benefits
09:09 < synxhm> you know what i think i would actually really enjoy, driving a school bus, its too bad it doesn't pay enough to make ends
09:10 < synxhm> i tried to convince the wife to sell all our shit and move to a farm and just live like hippies but she wasn't having any of it
09:10 <@Dolemite> If you had a consulting business in between the morning and afternoon hours, it could.  :)
09:11 < aestetix> synxhm: that sounds like a great idea until you find out that hippies don't bathe
09:11 < aestetix> ;)
09:11 < synxhm> ha
09:11 < aestetix> "all natural, mannnnn...."
09:12 < synxhm> serious though, my dad was a high level exec and was getting so stressed out he had to go on FMLA and after a few months he up and quit moved into his house up in the mountains full time and now raises goats up there and just does shit around the house
09:12 < synxhm> im not in that financial position to be able to do that but i really considered trying to move the family to socali to move in with him
09:13 <@Corydon76> SoCal is not affordable by any means.  You're better off in BFE Tennessee.
09:13 < aestetix> ^
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09:14 < synxhm> Corydon76, valid but he is about 2-3 hours outside of LA up by edwards afb and way up in the mountains its not as bad as you would think
09:14 < aestetix> I used to hear people say "I wanna get away from it all" often. What they actually meant was "I want to get away from my problems."
09:14 < aestetix> And usually their problems followed them wherever they went ;)
09:14 < synxhm> aestetix, that is a very valid observation me thinks
09:15 < synxhm> though i think part of my problems stem from the rat race so i do think it would be an improvement
09:15 <@Corydon76> Or worse, exchange a set of problems you know how to cope with for a set of problems you have no idea how to deal with
09:15 < aestetix> Corydon76: yep
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09:25 < Synx_hm> in other news why the fuck cant openvz get on a kernel from this decade
09:25 < Synx_hm> its really a fucking drag id love to test out wireguard on this vps
09:26 <@Evilpig> why can't a modern desktop OS come with telnet or ftp command line utilities by default?
09:26 < Synx_hm> lol, on that note when did windows can the telnet client?
09:27 <@Evilpig> win 7
09:27 < Synx_hm> its super fucking annoying i used to use it all the time to test tcp socket connection
09:27 < Synx_hm> its still in server os i think at least
09:27 <@Evilpig> same here.  stupid os x has joined that crew of not making it available now as well
09:27 <@Evilpig> for windows you can load it as an extra
09:27 <@Evilpig> it's just not in the default install
09:27 < Synx_hm> so i get all these stupid windows app store defaults but no tiny telnet binary
09:27 < Synx_hm> thanks ms
09:28 <@Evilpig> I updated my work laptop last weekend to the latest os x build and it took away telnet
09:28 < Synx_hm> i tried really hard last month to go ubuntu with mate full time
09:28 <@Evilpig> then later I learned it was missing ftp too
09:28 < Synx_hm> but it just didn't work out
09:32 <@Dolemite> Well now you can install Ubuntu within Windows, so you can have both tool sets
09:41 < Synx_hm> thats still a bit of a hackjob
09:42 < Synx_hm> last i checked you couldn't pass usb devices off to /dev, nor could you easily pass in gpg auth agents (can be done via proxy but still)
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10:02 <@_NSAKEY> Synx_hm: I ran into something similar, with not having access to telnet as a client. The solution involved /dev/tcp. You may want to see if powershell has similar voodoo under the hood.
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11:17 <@shapr> gosh I despise gpg-agent
11:17 <@shapr> least user friendly thing I've seen in the past decade or so
11:22 <@Corydon76> You're lucky if that's the least user friendly thing you've seen in a decade
11:23 <@Corydon76> Let me introduce you to Honda data file feeds, fixed width, no line feeds
11:26 <@Corydon76> Fortunately, the data format hasn't changed in a decade.  Unfortunately, they reserve the right to change the format with no notice.  Yes, that's right in the specification.
11:29 <@xray> Synx_hm seems to have skipped out but other might like to know that Google has a job search site https://www.google.com/search?q=google+job+search&oq=google+job+search&ibp=htl;jobs
11:29 < PigBot> google job search (at www.google.com) http://tinyurl.com/y8co8r75
11:30 <@Mirage> I'm sure I missed a discussion earlier, but who thought last night's Doctor Who was another steaming pile of shit?  I powered my way to the end, but my wife went in the other room to play a game on her computer about half way through.
11:34 <@xray> Writing makes a show. A great actor can't always cover for bad writing.
11:36 <@xray> So are they trying to write great Doctor Who episodes or are they trying to write great social commentary that just happens to have this character named Doctor Who in it.
11:36 <@xray> That seems to be the basis of all the angst I'm seeing about the show.
11:37 <@shapr> Corydon76: that sounds worse
11:37 <@shapr> I actually like SIP at this point, and consider it a good design
11:37 <@xray> There is also the issue of the actor being able to portray they idea of the character.
11:37 <@shapr> brimstone pointed out that means I've sadly injected the kool-aid
11:38 <@xray> shapr: I think I missed something. What are you doing with SIP?
11:38 <@shapr> it's pretty much my job
11:39 <@xray> I wasn't aware of that.
11:39 <@Corydon76> shapr: from my past dealings with SIP, I agree with brimstone.
11:39 <@shapr> I recently read all the SIP/SDP/RTP RFCs, and a few of the SIPREC RFCs
11:40 <@shapr> I skipped out on the NAT traversal RFCs and a bunch of the others
11:40 <@shapr> but I probably need to go back and read them
11:40 <@shapr> honestly, I need to finish the SIP stack I started in Haskell
11:40 <@shapr> and then extend it to a real SIPREC server and client
11:40 <@Corydon76> The fact that they blatantly violate layer separation is one thing that may make things work around some terrible network hacks, but in the process make the protocol itself a terrible hack
11:40 <@Evilpig> Mirage: yes.  and the trump jab was just over the top
11:40 <@shapr> Corydon76: explain?
11:41 <@Corydon76> shapr: the fact that one of the things they do is to embed layer 2 addresses right up in layer 7?
11:42 <@dasunt> Are the latest Dr. Who episodes streaming on any major service at this point?
11:42 <@Corydon76> INVITE foo@1.2.3.4 <-- really?
11:42 <@shapr> oh good point
11:42 <@shapr> that's causing us problems right now
11:43 <@Corydon76> SIP doesn't belong anywhere NEAR 'good design'
11:43 <@shapr> Corydon76: this is valuable for my thinking, could you expand on problems with the design/implementation of SIP/SDP/RTP/etc?
11:43 <@Corydon76> shapr: I've been out of the loop for at least 5 years
11:43 <@shapr> you clearly have a viewpoint I value
11:44 <@Corydon76> And if I have my druthers, I won't be getting back in
11:44 <@shapr> well, if you have the urge to type more about SIP, I'd like to learn.
11:44 <@Corydon76> One of the problems with 'design by committee' is that entrenched players encode their awful hacks into the specification.
11:44 <@shapr> yeah, that's true
11:45 <@Corydon76> Examine the old way that Asterisk used to do DTMF to find an example of where the specification was so inexact that two vendors came out with implementations that did not interact well.
11:46 <@shapr> I know there's in-band and event
11:46 <@Corydon76> Fortunately, Asterisk did adapt. But ultimately, Asterisk threw out its own implementation, and just went with an external library.
11:46 <@shapr> yeah, we have a sip stack in Golang, and it's ... buggy
11:47 <@shapr> we're about to license pjsip so we don't have to deal with all the weirdness
11:47 <@Corydon76> Inband DTMF is horrible all on its own.  Add any jitter or lost packets, and inband sucks
11:47 <@Corydon76> Inband is great if you have a reliable and nonsaturated link.
11:48 <@Corydon76> But when you're dealing with cloud communication, that is impossible to ensure
11:48 <@Corydon76> And then you get to deal with a single DTMF getting interpreted as 2 or 3 DTMF events.  UGH!
11:49 <@Corydon76> And don't even think about inband fax.  That's even worse.
11:52 <@Corydon76> And yet, back when I was doing Asterisk deployments, before T.38 support was ready, that's exactly what we did for fax.  Inband.  Oh, the horror... the horror...
11:54 <@shapr> :-(
11:54 <@shapr> I've heard about that.
11:55 <@shapr> fax + voip = pain
11:55 <@shapr> Corydon76: any other thoughts on what's wrong with the SIP stack?
11:55 <@shapr> sad to say, I think it's a better design than the work code I maintain
12:02 <@Corydon76> That's not surprising, actually.  A lot of internal codebases are more about making it work than making it good
12:03 <@Corydon76> "I'll clean this up later." tends to be a frequent comment that remains for decades at a time.
12:03 <@Corydon76> Assuming the codebase is in production for that long.
12:04 <@shapr> This is our second big product. First one took years to clean up
12:04 <@shapr> Required a total rewrite, but golly it's nice now.
12:05 <@Corydon76> For our total rewrite, I had good architecture at first, and then management was in more of a rush to get it done than to get it done right.  So all that nice architecture got hacked around.
12:10 < TheDukh_> been a moment since I checked, but has the IBM + RedHat merger been talked about already?
12:14 <@Dolemite> Nothing left but tears
12:18 < dfused> how much is your soul worth? .... oh about 34B ...sigh
12:18 < dfused> assume this is IBMs attempt to stay relevant
12:24 <@Dolemite> SO glad that I went with Docker EE rather than RedHat CoreOS.
12:24 <@Corydon76> Was their last big buyout Informix, or has there been something more recent?
12:24 <@Corydon76> Just look at where Informix is now -- nowhere.
12:27 <@Corydon76> I think I have a new slogan for IBM:  "Where yesterday's technology goes to ensure that it dies a long, drawn-out, painful death"
12:27 <@Corydon76> Catchy, right?
12:27 <@Dolemite> Reminds me of the slogan I offered up for the town where I live - they decided not to use it.
12:28 <@Dolemite> Based on the fact that we have lots of retailing leaving the town limits, and almost all of the new development is for assisted living centers, I offered, "Welcome to Farragut, a great place to wait to die!"
12:28 <@Dolemite> s/retailing/retail
12:28 <@Dolemite> MFGA!   Make Farragut Great Again!
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13:44 <@_NSAKEY> Corydon76: I'm not sure which is worse. IBM, Cisco, or Oracle.
13:45 <@Corydon76> If that's the choice, Oracle wins, hands down.
13:45 <@Corydon76> All you have to do is look at the Android lawsuit fuckery.
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13:46 <@Corydon76> "The Java API is copyrighted."  Bullshit.  You cannot copyright an API, just the implementation of that API.
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14:41 <@dasunt> Um:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZcC3ySKNzc
14:41 < PigBot> Donald Trump Appears Not To Know How An Umbrella Works (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/ybur5myr
14:43 <@Corydon76> He is such a dumbass
14:43 <@dasunt> I still think a case could be built for senility.
14:44 <@Corydon76> You know, there's probably memo he dictated to the Secret Service about making the door to AF1 a little bigger.
14:44 <@dasunt> Presumably, Trump had the skill at one time to close an umbrella.
14:46 <@dasunt> One year ago, he could:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybrL9wrapFE
14:46 < PigBot> Trump can't close his own umbrella...lol (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/y86ao5pd
14:46 <@Corydon76> Actually, if they did make the door bigger, he'd probably take the opportunity to miss the jetway and faceplant on the tarmac.
14:46 <@dasunt> So isn't a loss of basic life skills one sign of senility?
15:02 <@dasunt> Hmm:  https://thehardtimes.net/opinion/opinion-dead-kennedys-songs-werent-supposed-to-age-this-well/
15:02 < PigBot> Opinion: Dead Kennedys Songs Weren’t Supposed to Age This Well (at thehardtimes.net) http://tinyurl.com/y76dj9zj
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16:26 <@dasunt> How is an OSI approved open source license free for personal use?
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 30 00:00:41 2018