--- Log opened Fri Feb 02 00:00:23 2018
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05:16 < PrezPusyGrab> :D
06:15 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:15  * Dolemite grabs PrezPusyGrab
06:16  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
06:16  * aestetix grabs Dolemite by the 
06:17 <@Dolemite> If I'd known you were going to do that, I might have washed it.
06:27 < aestetix> Given that Nolan Bushnell has now been hit by metoo, I wonder how long this can continue before it collapses
06:28 <@Dolemite> I have no idea who that is
06:28 < aestetix> Ever heard of Atari?
06:28 <@_NSAKEY> aestetix: I'm not even surprised, honestly. I remember that even Game Informer hinted at how fucked up Atari was back in the day.
06:29 <@_NSAKEY> I think the example they used is that a limo driver could sleep their way into being a project manager at Atari.
06:29 < aestetix> _NSAKEY: the problem is that intersectionality feminism has defined "appropriate" to be far more constrictive than even the most ardent Southern baptists
06:29 < aestetix> And now they are digging through everyone's history to evaluate them all against this standard
06:29 <@Dolemite> Oh, right, that guy
06:30 <@Dolemite> aestetix: I agree.   It's gotten to where apparently asking someone out when they don't like you is considered harassment.
06:31 <@_NSAKEY> aestetix: I'm waiting for the feminist puritans to figure out that Nintendo used to run at least one love hotel in Japan.
06:31 < aestetix> I mean they are attacking Germaine Greer for not being feminist enough
06:31 < aestetix> Which is amazing, because in the 90s Greer was the outcast all the feminists agreed was too extreme
06:32 <@Dolemite> _NSAKEY: You mean Mario wasn't the only one laying a lot of pipe?
06:32 < aestetix> I'm all about equality of opportunity. But this shit is horrible.
06:33 < aestetix> And I love how they attack Mike Pence because he refuses to be alone in a room with a woman who isn't his wife.
06:33 < aestetix> There's a bunch of stuff about Pence I don't agree with
06:33 < aestetix> But that one makes sense.
06:36 < aestetix> Dolemite: it's also giving media outlets an excuse to air stories with very explicit sexual drama in them.
06:36 < aestetix> I'm kind of curious why these media outlets aren't taking these allegations to the police.
06:37 <@Dolemite> pendulums can swing too far in both directions, not just one
06:48 <@Dolemite> WTF!?
06:49 <@Dolemite> https://boingboing.net/2018/02/02/in-1906-the-bronx-zoo-exhibit.html
07:30 <@Mirage> I'm kind of curious when someone is going to sue the shit out of the media for libel due to stories they run based on bs rumors and allegations.
07:31 <@Mirage> that and someone suing the shit out of an employer for wrongful termination based on the same
07:37 <@Mirage> of course when/if either of those happen, no one will ever hear about it.
08:35 < aestetix> Mirage: yep
08:35 < aestetix> Mirage: I'm hoping that happens soon.
08:35 < aestetix> James Damore comes to mind. He was basically fired because Gizmodo took his memo, misrepresented it in their description, and removed all the sources.
08:36 < aestetix> And the author who published that piece is still working there.
08:56 <@Dagmar> He should probably be suing them as well as Google
08:57 <@Dagmar> If anyone's going to be likely to do a plain reading interpretation of the document, it'll be a federal judge
08:57 <@Dagmar> Even calling it a memo is misleading as fuck, and that's all been the media whores
09:11 <@dasunt> LOL:  https://twitter.com/citypages/status/959284957184012288
09:11 < PigBot> Title: City Pages on Twitter: "Club Jäger protested, closes early on second night back https://t.co/Bq82ASjTSJ… " (at twitter.com) http://tinyurl.com/ycvjac9q
09:12 <@Dagmar> Enh
09:12 <@Dagmar> Fuck that article
09:12 <@Dagmar> One activist present said the group was "incredibly disappointed" to learn of the bar's attempted resurgence, but "not surprised someone like Julius DeRoma would try to exploit the Super Bowl for profit."
09:12 <@dasunt> Guy's a shithead.
09:12 <@Dagmar> He runs a bar.
09:12 <@Dagmar> Of COURSE he's going to try to "exploit" the Super Bowl for a profit
09:12 <@dasunt> Yes.  That's his right.
09:13 <@Dagmar> No, that's fucking _normal_
09:13 <@dasunt> It's activist rights to point out that the owner of said bar has no problem backing KKK members.
09:13 <@Dagmar> ...yet they're quoting someone who is using phrases like "someone like Julius DeRoma" in conjuction with that
09:14 <@Dagmar> Like, clearly it's because he's a nazi, not because every fuckign bar everywhere has a SuperBowl party
09:14 <@Dagmar> That's the sort of mental desert I don't want to be anywhere near
09:14 <@dasunt> Oh, he's trying to exploit the Superbowl crowd, for sure.
09:14 <@Dagmar> Because it's a fucking bar
09:14 <@dasunt> Because he lost everyone when it was revealed he supported David Duke.
09:14 <@Dagmar> Hell, we have bars fucking _dedicated_ to sports all over the place
09:15 <@Dagmar> We even have a special name for them
09:15 <@dasunt> Yes, we do.  And there's plenty around here.
09:23 < aestetix> maybe Americas problem isn't too many lawsuits..... it's too many stupid lawsuits, not enough good ones
09:23 < aestetix> Because libel law is clearly not being enforced lately
09:23 <@dasunt> What's libel in this story?
09:24 < aestetix> Oh I was referring to the Damore story.
09:24 <@Dagmar> Maybe it's too many news outlets being more interested in yellow yournalism for easy clicks than _decent_ journalism to educate and informa
09:24 < aestetix> I don't know about the other ones
09:24 < aestetix> Dagmar: that too
09:24 <@dasunt> A biased reporting of facts is, AFAIK, not libel, but IANAL.
09:24 < aestetix> But still, that should make it a gold mine for a prosecutor
09:24 <@Dagmar> Because those fuckers just magnify the works of idiots to make a bunch of people mad
09:24 < aestetix> dasunt: biased reporting isn't libel, but incorrect reporting that leads to someone getting fired, without issuing a correction, is
09:25 <@dasunt> aestetix: What's incorrect?
09:25 <@Dagmar> THat depends on whteher or not the person sig~ning the paychecks is fine with yellow journalism
09:25 <@Dagmar> Clearly, nowadays, media outlets are _completely_ fine with yellow journalism
09:25 < aestetix> ok let's take a look
09:25 < aestetix> https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320
09:25 < PigBot> aestetix: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
09:25 <@Dagmar> Just the fucking title is a lie
09:25 < aestetix> first, the memo wasn't anti-diversity, nor was it a screed
09:25 <@Dagmar> "anti-diversity"
09:25 <@dasunt> Dagmar: According to a Fox News lawsuit a few years ago, they claim to be entertainment, not news.  So at least one major news outlet is not even trying for yellow journalism.
09:26 < aestetix> In fact, it contains 1.5 pages of suggestions on increasing diversity
09:26 <@dasunt> aestetix: Point.
09:26 <@Dagmar> dasunt: Fox News isn't the majority, they're just one of the noisier ass clowns
09:26 < aestetix> second, gizmodo is saying they have obtained it in full, implying that it is in full on tha page
09:26 < aestetix> "The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted."
09:26 < aestetix> This is not true. They took out *all* the sources.
09:26 <@Dagmar> Weren't they also making a bit deal about how he supposedly didn't substantiate anything?
09:27 <@Dagmar> The recurring theme around that document was really simple tho
09:27 < aestetix> now compare it to the version Damore himself put online
09:27 < aestetix> https://firedfortruth.com/
09:27 < PigBot> Title: Fired for Truth James Damores official site (at firedfortruth.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9qhaecn
09:27 <@Dagmar> Question the party line, doubt even for a moment that he wasn't advocating raping babies and burning migrants, and you get called a sexist racist nazi asshole or worse
09:28 <@Dagmar> WHatever a reasonable person could possibly say about the document is only an invitation to be vilified because everyone's already made up their minds about what was really in the document, because the media told them what to think about it
09:29 <@Dagmar> Fuck each and every single person involved in that counter-productive abomination of egalitarianism
09:30 <@Dagmar> I don't care if you're purple, have three dicks, grew up inside a black muslim, whatever...
09:30 < aestetix> So yes. Gizmodo modified the material by removing the sources, put forward an article that does not reflect the source material, and as a result, Damore was fired.
09:30 < aestetix> I'd say that's a very strong case for a libel lawsuit.
09:30 <@Dagmar> I got called terrible things just about as soon as I could say, "Hey wait... this thing seems to say..."
09:30 <@dasunt> I will say that memetic ideology control appears to be a human trait.
09:31 <@Dagmar> So... I will no longer discuss that shitshow online
09:31 <@Dagmar> In person, I can get in someone's face and DEMAND that they prove they actually read it
09:31 <@Dagmar> Because statistically speaking, no one ever bothers
09:31 <@dasunt> I tend to find that whenever I investigate anything, I get too nuanced for any conversation.
09:31 < aestetix> Dagmar: wise
09:31 < aestetix> dasunt: so yes, that's the big one I can immediately think of.
09:32 < aestetix> But also, 90% of the reporting on Jordan Peterson.
09:32 <@Dagmar> They read a news article that says something is nazi cancer, and they think "Great, we've identified another source of nazi cancer" and have a feelgood moment
09:32 < aestetix> Although Peterson isn't being negatively affected as much, so it's not as big a deal.
09:32 <@Dagmar> They never, ever seem to question if the news report was accurate
09:32 <@dasunt> Speaking of which, someone in one of the conservative groups posted a supposedly Finnish weapon used by a robber made from road scraps.  It was (supposedly again) a full automatic.
09:32 < aestetix> actually hold on
09:32 <@dasunt> Looked for sources, could not find any.
09:33 < aestetix> https://aestetix.com/2018/01/25/why-i-no-longer-read-news/
09:33 <@dasunt> But I shut up, because, y'know, internet things.
09:33 < aestetix> here's another one
09:33 < aestetix> This is about a story in the guardian
09:33 < aestetix> I've found issues like this with *every* major publication out of the US, including the NY Times and CNN
09:34 <@Dagmar> Because if you don't tote the party line, you *are* The Enemy
09:34 <@dasunt> I disagree.
09:34 <@dasunt> If you don'
09:34 <@Dagmar> The social justice warriors have simply taken a new approach to social control that's a shade more sinister than anything in 1984
09:34 <@dasunt> It should be, "If you don't support the party, you *are* the enemy".
09:35 <@Dagmar> Follow the GroupThink or be declared The Enemy
09:35 <@dasunt> That usually includes toting the party line, but does also require ignoring it if it gets in the way of supporting the party.
09:35 <@Dagmar> There'
09:35 <@Dagmar> s plenty of that going on
09:36 < aestetix> yep
09:36 < aestetix> A good example of that is the Trump book that just came out
09:36 < aestetix> that guy... Wolff
09:36 < aestetix> The book IMHO is basically tabloid gossip crap
09:37 < aestetix> But every major news outlet took it all as truth
09:37 <@Dagmar> What we should start doing is sneaking sentences from Damore's post out there one at a time
09:37 < aestetix> UNTIL someone used the stories in it to make a sex allegation against Niki Halley
09:37 <@Dagmar> Some of his suggestions were quite decent
09:37 < aestetix> and you can see the video from Morning Joe yesterday of Mika kicking Wolff off their panel for refusing to defend her
09:38 < aestetix> So basically Wolff's book is gospel until it is used to attack a woman
09:38 <@Dagmar> No.  No, I can't.
09:38 < aestetix> lol
09:38 <@Dagmar> I'm not watching a show named that.
09:38 <@dasunt> Neither am I.
09:38 < aestetix> then take my word for it :)
09:38 < aestetix> I only know about it because something popped up in my RSS feed about it
09:38 <@dasunt> I was interesting of Wolff's book until I learned he was one of those guys who writes what is more entertaining to happen rather than what actually happened.
09:39 < aestetix> dasunt: https://aestetix.com/2018/01/14/fire-fury-and-fiction-in-the-trump-white-house/
09:39 < PigBot> Title: Fire, Fury, and Fiction in the Trump White House | aestetix (at aestetix.com) http://tinyurl.com/yarhbn78
09:39 < aestetix> I tried to read it and stopped because it was clearly a tabloid rag
09:39 < aestetix> but yeah I think we're probably in agreement here
09:39 <@dasunt> I just skipped it.
09:40 < aestetix> dasunt: you're better off for it
09:40 <@dasunt> Anyways I'm still working through a book on class in America that I should have finished two weeks ago.
09:43 < aestetix> but apparently if you say "men and women are different" in public your career is over
09:44 <@dasunt> I will say that the biological difference between men and women is likely overstated.
09:46 < aestetix> I didn't say anything about how big the difference is
09:46 < aestetix> just that they are different
09:47 <@dasunt> Yes.  There's biological differences.
09:47 <@dasunt> There's also biological differences between different groups of people - for example, risk of certain inherited diseases.
09:47  * aestetix reports dasunt to the twitter secret police
09:48 <@dasunt> OTOH, if you start saying something like "Jews are different from non-Jewish Europeans", people are going to make assumptions.
09:49 <@dasunt> And if you try to play it of ass "well I was only talking about the chance of different haplogroups", people won't fall for that game.
09:53 <@Dagmar> No, they've already decided how what you meant differs from what you said
09:54 <@Dagmar> ...and they don't need to hear any more from you about your horrible racist opinion.
09:54 <@Dagmar> Which makes total sense you know, since like, eight out of ten people are rabid nazis
09:55 <@Dagmar> Of course at the first sign of possible devitation from GroupThink a person should be declared The Enemy, because The Enemy Is Everywhere
09:56 <@dasunt> Now aren't you engaging in a little hyperbole yourself?
09:56 <@Dagmar> Nope
09:57 <@Dagmar> Like I said, I don't give a fuck what color or gender someone is
09:57 <@Dagmar> This is a thing that's widely known about me
09:58 <@Dagmar> ...but every fucking time I try and interject some sanity or reason into one of these discussions, things *immediately* turn into "WHy are you such a woman-hating racist asshole?"
09:58 <@Dagmar> You can't even bring up that it's NOT THE ENGINEERS who are the reason women are thin on the ground in tech offices
09:58 <@Dagmar> It's all the fucking media outlets telling women that pretty is more important than smart, and all the little girls falling for it
09:59 <@Dagmar> But every goddamn time, the conversation is somehow all about what are we going to do to prevent the engineers from scaring all the women away
09:59 <@Dagmar> How do we make engineers stop keeping women out of tech
10:00 <@Dagmar> ...which is all wasted freakin' effort.
10:01 <@Dagmar> Because it's easier to attack the people closer to you than it is to try and attack say, Cosmopolitan or Redken or the sources of all the "pretty > *"
10:01 <@Dagmar> Confronting the latter for spreading a bias would require identifying the sources, and that would be too much like real work
10:02 <@Dagmar> Better to rest yourself and just take it out on the people nearest you
10:10 < aestetix> dasunt: but I will say this: I think intersectional feminism is both wrong, and dangerous.
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10:26 <@Mirage> I think I saw something recently about Walgreens or CVS changing their signage policies such that they would no longer perform 'photoshop touchups'
10:29 <@Dagmar> aestetix: It's based on a fallacy, so of course it is
10:29 < aestetix> if you define feminism as a movement to make sure that women who want to do certain things are able to do them, that's great, I'm on board
10:29 < aestetix> but that's not what this is
11:09 <@Dagmar> No, it's not
11:09 <@Dagmar> It starts with the *assumption* that all of society is exclusively controlled by "white patriarchal racists"
11:10 <@Dagmar> Anything they do on the basis of that will be invalid
11:10 <@Dagmar> At least the Occupy people were clear on the concept of economic oppression
11:19 <@dasunt> aestetix: Intersectionality is an important idea, but in it's transition from the ivory tower to the streets, it has frequently ended up being used as a "more oppressed than thou" stick.
11:39 < aestetix> dasunt: it's an idea, but it's being treated like a weapon to bludgeon people with.
11:39 < aestetix> Further, even if it *is* valid, there are strategies that totally counter any of the issues from it.
11:39 < aestetix> I don't actually think it's valid.
11:43 < aestetix> And I think if the US continues to embrace it in politics, education, and mass media, it's going to lead down a very, very dark path.
11:49 < PrezPusyGrab> Wow Devin Nunes is a goddamned retard.
11:50 < PrezPusyGrab> This memo is just a couple of already known GOP talking points
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12:11 <@dasunt> aestetix: Why don't you think it's valid?
12:15 < aestetix> dasunt: because it focuses on group identity rather than individual identity. And makes claims about group oppression without really citing specific individual cases.
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12:16 < aestetix> And they actively ignore examples of individuals who deny these "oppression" group claims.
12:16 < aestetix> I hear a lot more about oppression from people who claim to represent the "oppressed", than the "oppressed" themselves
12:17 < PrezPusyGrab> well maybe thats because as white people we're allowed the privilege of being treated like individuals while other groups are reduced to those groups.
12:17 < aestetix> If someone comes to me and said "I am opressed by X because of Y reasons, please help me"
12:17 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: tell that to Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas
12:17 < PrezPusyGrab> exceptions to a rule don't negate a rule
12:18 < aestetix> Further, "privilege" and "oppression" are nebulous terms.
12:18 < PrezPusyGrab> howso?
12:18 <@Dagmar> Well, "oppresion" isn't nebulous, but "privilege" is usually a big warning sign that multiple fallacies are inbound.
12:18 < PrezPusyGrab> You can't honestly tell me white privilege isn't a thing, every white guy from the south knows there's shit we can get away with that would end black peope up in jail usually
12:19 <@Dagmar> Sure, but it doesn't extend to every possible activity
12:19 < PrezPusyGrab> I know damned well i've gotten away with shit that a cop would have arrested a black guy for
12:19 < aestetix> I don't call that privilege. I call that tribalism.
12:19 < PrezPusyGrab> well thats a privilege they don't have
12:19 < aestetix> Further, let's assume "privilege" is a real thing.
12:19 < aestetix> Do you have control over it?
12:19 < aestetix> If not, you're beating people over something they can't control.
12:19 < PrezPusyGrab> I think you miss the point, it's not about beating peope over the head or guilting them for it
12:19 <@Dagmar> ...which makes the entire argument entirely hypocritical.
12:19 < aestetix> And further, you're judging them based on immutable characteristics.
12:20 <@Dagmar> You're not, but many other people are.
12:20 < PrezPusyGrab> its understanding that other peope may not have been as lucky as you
12:20 < PrezPusyGrab> thats pretty much it
12:20 <@Dagmar> It's literally the foundation of the "white privilege" argument
12:20 <@Dagmar> Holding white people responsible for the actions of all white people.
12:20 < aestetix> right
12:20 <@Dagmar> ...just because they're white.
12:20 < PrezPusyGrab> But that's a misrepresentation of the issue
12:20 <@Dagmar> No, it's not.
12:20 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: did the jews have white privilege?
12:20 < PrezPusyGrab> Noone wants you to be guilty for being white
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12:20 <@Dagmar> Yeah they do
12:20 <@Dagmar> I hear it all the time
12:20 < PrezPusyGrab> maybe some far fetched crazies do
12:21 < PrezPusyGrab> but any random fool on the internet can say whatever they want
12:21 <@Dagmar> We've noticed.
12:21 < aestetix> I mean, an artist in the building right next to me got carted off to Auschwitz in 1944
12:21 < aestetix> He had "white privilege" though
12:21 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix that makes no sense
12:21 < PrezPusyGrab> white privilege is things like not having to worry about cops thinking you're more dangerous and shooting you.
12:21 <@Dagmar> Neither do the vast majority of arguments where that comes up
12:22 < PrezPusyGrab> white privilege is not having your resume thrown in the garbage because your name is jama
12:22 <@Dagmar> Gosh why my cops have gotten that idea?
12:22 < PrezPusyGrab> jama
12:22 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: if that's the issue you have, take it up with the police department.
12:22 < PrezPusyGrab> jamal blah
12:22 <@Dagmar> s/my/might/
12:22 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  noone's trying to blame you though, they're just pointing out injustice exists in society
12:22 < PrezPusyGrab> I don't see why that's offensive
12:22 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: it's fine if you cite *specific* examples.
12:22 <@Dagmar> Could it have something to do with an entire culture devoted to drug sales, prostitution, gun violence, and materialsm?
12:23 <@Dagmar> ...not to mention extreme racism/
12:23 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: my point was that white privilege is not some ultimate get out of jail card.
12:23 < aestetix> That's why I mentioned the jews.
12:23 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  and my point is that is a misrepresentation because noone said it was
12:23 < PrezPusyGrab> it just means you face less hurdles in life
12:24 <@Dagmar> Except that's not hte way the argument is leveraged
12:24 < PrezPusyGrab> yeah you may be poor as fuck, but you don't have to deal with being poor AND not being able to get a job because you're black
12:24 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: if someone is 50, they have a harder time getting a job than a 25 year old.
12:24 <@Dagmar> It's almost entirely used to ignore class issues and blame thing on racism
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12:24 < aestetix> Does the 25 year old have "age" privilege?
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12:24 <@dasunt> aestetix: Isn't it possible for members of a group to face, on average, more difficulties?
12:24 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  well yeah, but thats not really considered an issue
12:24 < PrezPusyGrab> but yes, privilege is an opportunity or right others don't have
12:24 < PrezPusyGrab> that's all it is
12:25 < aestetix> dasunt: absolutely. But if you try to solve things on a group level, it won't end well.
12:25 <@dasunt> aestetix: Why not?
12:25 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: I guarantee you the 50 year old who can't get a job disagrees with you.
12:25 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  it's important to understand how race caused these things
12:25 <@Dagmar> YOu have to solve _the right problem_
12:25 < PrezPusyGrab> and how racism caused these things
12:25 < aestetix> dasunt: solve things on an individual level.
12:25 < PrezPusyGrab> most peope don't understand the full extent of what's been done to the black community
12:25 < aestetix> Ok, let's say you're a clown.
12:25 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  that's easy to say when you're not part of a group that is dehumanized
12:25 <@dasunt> aestetix: Ever heard the phrase "best is the enemy of good"?
12:25 < aestetix> And clowns have a hard time getting work.
12:26 < aestetix> Should you create a policy that all workplaces must hire a clown?
12:26 <@Dagmar> PrezPusyGrab: What do you think claiming someone's opinion is invalid because of "white privilege" is?
12:26 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  your attitude is an example of privilege.  You haven't had to deal with real racism so you have the privilege of acting like it doesn't really matter
12:26 < aestetix> Or do you help that clown, IF they ask, to be a better clown?
12:26 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: you don't know anything about me
12:26 <@Dagmar> Oh wow that's bullshit
12:26 < aestetix> And now that this has turned into an ad hominem, I'm done.
12:27 < PrezPusyGrab> well I mean that's the actual argument, and it's pretty obvious
12:27 < PrezPusyGrab> being able to ignore race is a privilege black people don't have
12:27 <@dasunt> aestetix: For example, a policy that all households with dependent children with under $x income/year will get free medical care for their children will include some people who would otherwise be capable of giving their children free medical care, and exclude other people who need it.
12:27 <@Dagmar> ...and I've seen a hell of a lot more angry black people looking to kick a white guy's ass than I have seen actual white supremacists
12:27 <@dasunt> aestetix: But such a policy is pretty good at getting many poor children medical care.
12:28 < PrezPusyGrab> One privilege white people have had is the ability to even buy health insurance, and invest their money in future generations, while black people had to spend more taking care of past generations because they weren't allowed into health insurance markets.
12:28 < aestetix> dasunt: I've found that this arguments usually lead to ad hominem attacks, which is where I draw the line.
12:28 < aestetix> er, Dagmar
12:28 < aestetix> not dasunt, sorry
12:28 <@Dagmar> PrezPusyGrab: That one is jsut bullshit
12:28 < PrezPusyGrab> which one?
12:29 <@Dagmar> You arguing that race plays into health care market decisions
12:29 < PrezPusyGrab> black people have only recently been allowed into the health insurance market
12:29 < PrezPusyGrab> relatively speaking
12:29 <@Dagmar> Health care costs are so wildly out of control that anyone in the lower third of the income brackets might as well be trying to pay for it with bars of solid gold
12:29 < PrezPusyGrab> meaning for generations they have had to spend their entire life savings sometimes to find a doctor who may not even care about black people
12:29 <@Dagmar> That has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with class oppression
12:29 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  but we're not talking about just today, there's important history
12:29 <@dasunt> Dagmar: Race and class are mixed.
12:30 <@Dagmar> ...and I'm talking about what's going on _now_.  Today.
12:30 < PrezPusyGrab> you can not accurately assess the situation today without accounting for history
12:30 <@Dagmar> dasunt: They might be mixed, but attempting to address a class problem as a race problem will only fail
12:30 <@Dagmar> Yes I can because I'm able to determine that what's going on today is _wrong today_
12:30 < PrezPusyGrab> the most important type of wealth is generational wealth, you wouldn't have the opportunities you have, if your parents didn't have the opporutnities they had, which iin turn wouldn't have existed without the opportunities your grandparents had
12:30 < PrezPusyGrab> thats proven
12:31 <@Dagmar> I can't change the past.  No one can change the past.
12:31 <@dasunt> Dagmar: But the solution is not to ignore the racial aspects.
12:31 <@Dagmar> Runnign around trying to change the past won't fix what's wrong today, either
12:31 < PrezPusyGrab> No but you can understand how the past affects the present
12:31 <@Dagmar> Running around trying to change the past will _not_ fix the problems we have now
12:31 <@Dagmar> Again, it's solving the wrong problem
12:32 < PrezPusyGrab> not really, because without understanding how the situation occured, and what was done to black people, you remove all historical context and then can say they're at fault for their own situation, which is patently false.
12:32 <@Dagmar> No, you can make straw men with it tho
12:32 < PrezPusyGrab> You can't interpret the economic and social situation of the African American community in a vacuum without considering the broader history of racism in America. We know from centuries of research that the most important type of wealth is generational wealth, assets that can pass from one generation to another. You wouldn't have the opportunities that you have today if your parents didn't have
12:32 < PrezPusyGrab> the opportunities they had, and they in turn wouldn't have had their success in life without the success of your grandparents, etc.
12:32 <@Dagmar> ...because I was pretty fucking clear on the issue of economic oppression.
12:32 <@Dagmar> ...and yet you just turned "my" argument into one of race.
12:32 < PrezPusyGrab> but black people face economic oppression white people don't face
12:33 <@Dagmar> That may be true, but it doesn't mean white people *don't* face economic oppression
12:33 <@Dagmar> There's plenty of economic oppression to go around.  More than enough.
12:33 < PrezPusyGrab> There's a certain type of neighborhood that's known as a "nexus of concentrated poverty," a space where poverty is such a default state that certain aspects of economic and social life begin to break down. The level is disputed, but for the purposes of the census the U.S. government defines concentrated poverty as 40% or more of residents living below the poverty line. At this level, everything
12:33 < PrezPusyGrab> ceases to function. Schools, funded by taxpayer dollars, cannot deliver a good education. Families, sustained by economic opportunity, cannot stay together. Citizens, turned into productive members of society through ties to the economic well-being of that society, turn to crime out of social disorder. In America today, 4% of white adults have grown up in such neighborhoods. 62% of black adults
12:33 < PrezPusyGrab> were raised in them.
12:33 <@Dagmar> That's rather the point of _economic oppression_
12:33 < PrezPusyGrab> sorry to copy and paste but that's really important
12:34 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  4% of white people face the same communal poverty levels than 62% of black adults grew up in
12:34 <@Dagmar> So what
12:34 < PrezPusyGrab> which is why you see such a huge disparity in communities
12:34 <@dasunt> Heck, right now, studies have shown that putting names on a resume that are associated with African-Americans results in less callbacks.
12:34 < aestetix> Don't forget about the war on drugs
12:34 < PrezPusyGrab> there's a certain point where when enough people are poor all of society breaks down
12:34 <@Dagmar> We're almost there
12:34 <@dasunt> Same resume, just a "whiter" name, has more callbacks.
12:34 <@dasunt> You can't say "well that's class".
12:35 < PrezPusyGrab> and you can't address the problems without understanding the cause of them
12:35 <@Dagmar> You're right
12:35 <@Dagmar> You can't address the problem without understanding the cause of the problem
12:35 < PrezPusyGrab> ignoring race because it makes people uncomfortable isn't the answer
12:36 <@Dagmar> ...which is why attempting to address an economic oppression problem that faces everyone solely as if it were a _race_ problem is destined to fail.
12:36 < PrezPusyGrab> but it doesn't face everyone
12:36 <@Dagmar> Yes it doesnt cause problems for the rich, this is true.
12:36 < PrezPusyGrab> like I said earlier, 4% of white people grow up in the same communal poverty that 62% of black people do
12:36 <@dasunt> Dagmar: But calling it an economic oppression problem when it's more than just economic oppression will also fail.
12:37 <@Dagmar> The economics problem is more widespread
12:37 <@Dagmar> It's simply something people have "normalized"
12:37 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  even poor white people are usually born into a relatively rich community, with schools, job opportunities, etc..
12:37 <@dasunt> Dagmar: It's something that still has a race-based component.
12:37 < PrezPusyGrab> black communities don't have these opportunities
12:37 < aestetix> I think single parenthood is higher in the black communities as well
12:37 < PrezPusyGrab> they were rounded up into ghettos through redlining
12:37 <@Dagmar> It also I'm sure has a gender-based component, and a choice of kool-aid flavor-based component a well
12:38 < aestetix> And IIRC most black men of parent age are in jail on drug charges
12:38 < aestetix> So, end the war on drugs
12:38 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  yes, because once a certain percentage of people in a community are below the poverty line, families can't afford to stay together.
12:38 <@Dagmar> Again, an economic issue
12:38 < PrezPusyGrab> white people do 5x the amount of drugs that black people do yet end up at 10x more likely to go to jail for it
12:38 <@Dagmar> Fix the economic issue.
12:38 < PrezPusyGrab> thats not an economic issue
12:38 <@Dagmar> Made up statistics help no one
12:38 <@dasunt> If people with "white names" are more likely to be hired than people with "black names", the result is an economic disparity, but the cause is not.
12:39 < PrezPusyGrab> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/30/white-people-are-more-likely-to-deal-drugs-but-black-people-are-more-likely-to-get-arrested-for-it/
12:39 < PigBot> Title: White people are more likely to deal drugs, but black people are more likely to get arrested for it - The Washington Post (at www.washingtonpost.com) http://tinyurl.com/jhqze4h
12:39 < aestetix> dasunt: or more black people need to start companies
12:39 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  with what loans?
12:40 < PrezPusyGrab> once again, the ability to walk into a bank and get a loan is a privilege a lot of people don't have
12:40 -!- Dickie [~dickie@unaffiliated/dickie] has left #se2600 ["WeeChat 1.4"]
12:40 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: you keep saying this word
12:40 < PrezPusyGrab> because it keeps being relevant
12:40 < aestetix> My two responses to that are
12:40 < aestetix> 1. provide statistics of evidence of the claim
12:40 < PrezPusyGrab> that black people are denied loans?
12:40 <@Dagmar> PrezPusyGrab: They don't have that "privilege" becuase they're poor
12:41 <@Dagmar> Banks only care about profit
12:41 < aestetix> 2. If that is true, it's usually due to credit scores, and I agree that the credit industry should be abolished
12:41 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  but even poor white people grow up in neighborhoods where there's job opportunities.  only 4% of white people grow up in communities so poor that there's not shit there.
12:41 <@Dagmar> That entire industry only cares about profit.
12:41 < aestetix> In fact, I'm pretty sure the civil rights act makes a lot of the things you're complaining aobut illegal
12:41 <@Dagmar> Shifting goalposts won't help you
12:41 < PrezPusyGrab> individual poverty is a completely different problem than communal poverty
12:42 < aestetix> I mean I was also denied a loan in the US because I have shit credit there
12:42 < PrezPusyGrab> individual poverty can be overcome through hard work, while communal poverty is a really hard problem to fix
12:42 <@dasunt> aestetix: Why should more black people start companies?
12:42 < aestetix> communal poverty can be overcome through individual willpower
12:42 < aestetix> dasunt: I think more poeple in general should start companies
12:42 < PrezPusyGrab> black people grow up in poorer areas, meaning the education you got?  they didn't, since public schools are funded by property tax.  The jobs  you were able to get?  don't exist in their communities.
12:43 < PrezPusyGrab> because all the upward mobility programs of this country, they were left out of
12:43 < aestetix> again please give statistics
12:43 < aestetix> you're good on platitudes, weak on details
12:43 < PrezPusyGrab> America isn't the richest nation in the world because we're just naturally drawn to success.  it's because we reinvested slave labor and gave out free land to other white people, and created social programs that created lily white suburbs
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix: I did, you just missed it
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> There's a certain type of neighborhood that's known as a "nexus of concentrated poverty," a space where poverty is such a default state that certain aspects of economic and social life begin to break down. The level is disputed, but for the purposes of the census the U.S. government defines concentrated poverty as 40% or more of residents living below the poverty line. At this level, everything
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> ceases to function. Schools, funded by taxpayer dollars, cannot deliver a good education. Families, sustained by economic opportunity, cannot stay together. Citizens, turned into productive members of society through ties to the economic well-being of that society, turn to crime out of social disorder. In America today, 4% of white adults have grown up in such neighborhoods. 62% of black adults
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> were raised in them.
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> there
12:44 < aestetix> where is that from?
12:44 < aestetix> also, that's just a theory
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> here read all of this is actually pretty good
12:44 <@Dagmar> These are all facts, but you have yet to establish how they support your premise
12:44 < PrezPusyGrab> no its not just a theory thats a fact
12:44 < aestetix> oh I meant the "type"
12:44 <@Dagmar> ...or even really properly explain _a_ conclusion, for that matter.
12:44 < aestetix> but yes please share the full source
12:45 < PrezPusyGrab> https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/4gmeoo/cmv_black_people_need_to_begin_accepting_their/  the first reply
12:45 <@Dagmar> This is required for an argument to be both valid and true.
12:45 < PrezPusyGrab> beautifully written
12:45 < PigBot> Title: CMV: Black people need to begin accepting their own responsibility for their problems; it is black criminality/culture that is causing the black community's problems, NOT white racism. [Serious] : changemyview (at www.reddit.com) http://tinyurl.com/y8d98bcq
12:45 < PrezPusyGrab> explains all the history of redlining
12:46 < PrezPusyGrab> how black people were exploited and left out of upwards mobility factors in white america
12:46 <@Dagmar> So?
12:46 <@dasunt> aestetix: But why should specifically black people start companies?
12:46 <@Dagmar> dasunt: It's simple enough
12:47 <@Dagmar> There's a running complaint that largely companies are only run by "white people"
12:47 < PrezPusyGrab> they should go to schools they don't have, get jobs that aren't available, and save up to get loans from banks that think blacks are worthless, obviously.
12:47 <@Dagmar> Banks don't get to make decisions like that.
12:47 < aestetix> dasunt: ^
12:47 <@Dagmar> Every time they come close to doing so, they get sued into the red
12:47 < aestetix> er Dagmar
12:47 <@dasunt> Dagmar: So the solution to race bias in hiring is for other companies to be started by those who the bias affects the most?
12:47 < PrezPusyGrab> banks dont get to deny loans?
12:47 < aestetix> if you think there should be more black run companies, the solution is to have more black people found them
12:48 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  black people, if not denied loans, are exploited through predatory lending
12:48 <@Dagmar> What they *do* make decisions on, is whether or not the person asking for the loan has anythign they can *take*
12:48 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: have you ever been denied a loan from a bank?
12:48 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  are you aware that memos circulated in the 2008 housing crisis to target "mud people" with loans they didn't understand with adjustable rates?
12:48 <@Dagmar> It doesn't matter if you're black or white, if you actually _need_ a loan you're not getting one
12:49 < aestetix> If you get denied a bank loan, they have to tell you why (I think)
12:49 <@Dagmar> PrezPusyGrab: And amazingly they got the shit sued out of them for it, as well as hefty fines
12:49 < PrezPusyGrab> They were purposefully giving loans to black people for houses and including fine print with adjustable rates, taking advantage of black people's lack of education.
12:49 <@dasunt> Isn't that what parents are for?  Assuming they have the wealth and income to cosign?
12:49 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  who did?
12:49 <@Dagmar> A number of companies
12:49 < PrezPusyGrab> They crashed the economy and fucked everyone, including all the black people who invested in houses and had the rates jacked up on them
12:49 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: do you mean the credit default swaps?
12:49 < aestetix> That wasn't racial, that was predatory capitalism
12:49 < PrezPusyGrab> they were specifically targetting black people as "mud people"
12:49 <@dasunt> Which circles back to race - if discriminition effected previous generations and still continues to operate, then minorities seeking loans will be less likely to get someone to cosign.
12:49 < aestetix> The bankers weren't doing it to keep blacks poor, they were doing it because they wanted to get rich
12:50 <@Dagmar> PrezPusyGrab: That had nothing to do with racism and everything to do with capitalism and economic oppression
12:50 <@dasunt> Or they'll get higher rates.
12:50 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  and predatory capitalism always hits the most vulnerable
12:50 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: which is an economic issue
12:50 <@Dagmar> The banks fucked *everyone* who had two nickels to rub together that they could talk into a loan
12:50 < PrezPusyGrab> and its also a raace issue, since racism makes black people much more vulnerable to this
12:50 <@Dagmar> Except race was a condition, not the cause
12:50 <@dasunt> Dagmar: Why not both?
12:51 < aestetix> That's like if you had a room full of murderers who wore hats, and concluded that wearing a hat makes you want to murder people
12:51 < PrezPusyGrab> https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/4gmeoo/cmv_black_people_need_to_begin_accepting_their/
12:51 <@Dagmar> "both" what?
12:51 < PrezPusyGrab> oops
12:51 < PigBot> Title: CMV: Black people need to begin accepting their own responsibility for their problems; it is black criminality/culture that is causing the black community's problems, NOT white racism. [Serious] : changemyview (at www.reddit.com) http://tinyurl.com/y8d98bcq
12:51 < aestetix> dude you need to read less reddit
12:51 <@Dagmar> Predatory captalism doesn't give two shits about someone's skin color
12:51 <@dasunt> Studies have shown ongoing discrimination in housing and jobs for African-Americans, which results in less income and increased expenses.  Which results in higher loan rates, if a loan is offered.
12:51 < PrezPusyGrab> This idea that the poor and socially disadvantaged are more vulnerable is called exploitation theory, and it's really important to understanding race in America. <-- is a good point also
12:51 < aestetix> dasunt: so they should file a lawsuit
12:52 < aestetix> more nonsense theories
12:52 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar: yes, it does, and if you read what I posted about contract homes and redlining you know that predatory capitalism has always targetted black people more.
12:52 <@dasunt> aestetix: Of course they should.  But vulnerable people tend to have less resources.
12:52 <@Dagmar> You're reading things from the text that are not there
12:53 <@Dagmar> Also, it's a fucking reddit post
12:53 < aestetix> dasunt: so get a pro bono lawyer
12:53 < PrezPusyGrab> file a lawsuit?  goddamn dude.  you just make everything sound so easy.  I wonder why black people haven't been able to do all this as easily as you say it is
12:53 <@dasunt> aestetix: And how easy is that?
12:53 < aestetix> dasunt: in fact, there are many lawyers who go into practice specifically for this
12:53 < PrezPusyGrab> ever think of that?
12:53 <@Dagmar> For the same reason poor white people haven't been able to do anything about it
12:53 < aestetix> And many local governments give them grants to do so
12:53 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: are you focusing on the poor or the blacks? You keep conflating them
12:53 <@dasunt> You appear to be misunderstanding power here.
12:53 <@Dagmar> ...but deciding that the issue was really one of race gives people a "known" enemy and makes them feel all warm inside, having easily identified the conspiracy against them.
12:54 < PrezPusyGrab> maybe black people aren't as retarded as you think they are, and it's not as easy as you think it is, aestetix
12:54 < aestetix> wait a second what
12:54 <@Dagmar> It's much harder to actually look and deal with the fact that a very small part of the population is looking to seriously fuck everyone else over and turn them into slaves
12:54 <@dasunt> Right now, if my employer asked me to do something illegal, or took advantage of me, I could laugh in their faces, walk out, and hit a law firm on the way home.
12:54 < aestetix> ok.... which logical fallacy is that
12:54 < aestetix> where you're inferring I said stuff I didn't
12:54 <@dasunt> I don't need to care about bills for awhile.
12:54 <@dasunt> But I'm not poor.
12:54 < PrezPusyGrab> I mean the idea that all of this is so easy but black people can't figure it out should maybe tell you it's not that easy
12:54 <@dasunt> I have cash in the bank.
12:54 <@dasunt> Poor people, by definition, lack that cash.
12:55 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: sounds like you really want to save the poor black people ;)
12:55 < PrezPusyGrab> no, I just don't like willful ignorance because it preserves your feelings
12:56 < PrezPusyGrab> its easy to pretend everything is so easy for everyone else who don't have the same privileges that you do
12:56 < PrezPusyGrab> and its hard to accept maybe we have advantages that others dont
12:56 < PrezPusyGrab> but preserving white fragility isn't more important than justice
12:56 < aestetix> ....
12:57 < PrezPusyGrab> as a white person i can honestly say its pretty shocking how many mental gymnastics people will go through to pretend they don't have privileges in life.
12:57 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: and so the solution is to beat the shit out of yourself in secular repentance?
12:57 <@dasunt> As a white person, I'm just amazed at how other white people don't understand poverty.
12:57 < aestetix> because it's impossible for white people to be poor
12:57 < PrezPusyGrab> No, it's to not be an ignorant judgmental asshole to those less fortunate than you and pretend everyone has it as easy as you do
12:58 <@Dagmar> ...or at leat that's the theory.
12:58 <@dasunt> It was one of those things that struck me upon moving from rural poorville.
12:58 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: so you're calling me an asshole now?
12:58 <@Dagmar> However, those of us who have had to make the decision between eating and keeping the lights on damn well know better.
12:58 < PrezPusyGrab> no, I'm speaking in general about the topic
12:58 < aestetix> oh ok
12:58 < aestetix> Because you already made several accusations again me
12:58 < PrezPusyGrab> sorry I don't mean to be personally insulting if I am little combatative
12:58 < aestetix> I don't mind combatitiveness. I greatly mind personal attacks.
12:59 <@dasunt> Dagmar: Meh, you can go a few days without food.
12:59 < PrezPusyGrab> but some of the things you said are downright ignorant towards the plight of other people.  I know, because I used to think that same stuff until i really looked into it.
12:59 < aestetix> And inferring what I know or think or have experienced is prejudice.
12:59 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: I work on specific examples.
13:00 < aestetix> If you can cite specific examples of discrimination, I'm 100% behind you
13:00 < aestetix> Which would include "this man was denied a loan because he was blacl"
13:00 < PrezPusyGrab> But using that to ignore nuance and subtlety isn't accurate
13:00 < aestetix> ok, we're running into this circle again
13:01 <@Dagmar> ...which usually involves demonstrating that he actually had the collateral for the loan and was still denied.
13:01 < PrezPusyGrab> I suggest you read the link I posted, it explains a LOT of this stuff, and is one of the best short articles on it I've read
13:01 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: ok, do you think white people should kill themselves?
13:01 < PrezPusyGrab> no aestetix
13:01 < aestetix> Why not?
13:01 <@Dagmar> ...but since it always comes down to collateral...
13:01 <@Dagmar> Cause comes *before* effect, damnit
13:01 < PrezPusyGrab> Dagmar:  but thats part of the issue, black people have less opportunities for jobs, they were practically denied home ownership, etc...
13:01 < PrezPusyGrab> so they will have less chances to get collateral
13:01 < aestetix> Dagmar: if they guy had collateral and a good credit score and was still denied
13:02 < aestetix> then that would be very different
13:02 < PrezPusyGrab> meanwhile the fha controlled loans for white people and created a booming middle class
13:02 < aestetix> If youre suggesting the government should stop giving out free money, I agree with you
13:02 < PrezPusyGrab> fha regulation practically created white suburbia, while at the same time creating ghettos with no opportunities
13:02 <@Dagmar> ...except that's not the thing that happens
13:02 <@Dagmar> People get denied loans because they didnt have something of equal or greater value the bank could take if they default on the loan.
13:03 < PrezPusyGrab> he FHA and other banks which used their ratings (which were all of them, more or less) resolved not to give a loan to any black family who would increase the racial diversity of a neighborhood (in practice a barrier of proof so high that virtually no black families received financial aid in purchasing a home). These practices did not end until 1968, and by then the damage had been done. In
13:03 < PrezPusyGrab> 1930, 30% of Americans owned homes. By 1960, 60% of them did, largely because of the FHA and the lending practices its presence in the market enabled.
13:03 < PrezPusyGrab> ^^
13:03 < aestetix> Dagmar: be careful, or PrezPusyGrab will accuse you of being racist ;)
13:03 <@Dagmar> THe government should stop giving out free money to corporations.
13:03 < aestetix> +1
13:03 <@Dagmar> Corporations get _far_ more money from the government than any individual social welfare program could dream of getting.
13:03 < PrezPusyGrab> There have been government handouts to white people that have made them rich.  Not to corporations, to middle class white people.
13:04 < PrezPusyGrab> black people have been left out of those
13:04 <@Dagmar> Again, an *economic* problem
13:04 <@Mirage> stop?! IMO they should never have done it in the first place
13:04 < PrezPusyGrab> even if you're not rich yourself, 96% of white people grew up in communities where this wealth was around and they could take part in it
13:04 <@dasunt> Dagmar: What about black people being less likely to be hired than white people, even if the qualifications are identical?
13:04 <@Mirage> PrezPusyGrab: Yeah, I think I remember that guy's infomercials from ages ago about how to get free money from the gov't
13:05 <@Dagmar> dasunt: That goalpost isn't my concern right now
13:05 <@dasunt> Mirage: Did it involve sending a SASE to Peublo, CO?
13:05 < PrezPusyGrab> without the sterling credit ratings that businessmen in lily-white communities could buy at, there would be no modern suburb
13:05 <@Dagmar> It's also a _much smaller subset_ of the actual problem
13:05 <@Mirage> dasunt: i thin so
13:05 < aestetix> It's just amusing hearing this argument.... since I live in a country that used to be Communist
13:05 <@dasunt> Mirage: Also, did the guy wear clothing with question marks?
13:06 <@Mirage> dasunt: yup
13:06 <@Dagmar> Collectively, "black people" might be taking it on the chin
13:06 < PrezPusyGrab> You're ignoring all the wealth in white america, and how government social programs created that for people, and purposefully excluded black people from.
13:06 <@Dagmar> However, that's made up of individuals, and no progress will be made until something is done to help _individuals_ with economic oppression
13:06 < aestetix> And communism's result showed why these policies don't work
13:07 < PrezPusyGrab> while white people were inheriting homes and money, black people were inheriting poverty
13:07 <@dasunt> aestetix: I'm not sure what policies you are talking about that communism shows doesn't work.
13:07 <@Dagmar> Once you've gotten to the "dirt poor" stage, you stay that way for a long while
13:07 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  so the homestead act and giving white people free land didn't create wealth?
13:07 < aestetix> dasunt: any policy that has the aim of equality of outcome
13:07 <@dasunt> aestetix: How about equality of opportunity?
13:07 < aestetix> dasunt: I'm 100% in favor of that
13:07 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  FHA giving out sterling credit ratings to whtie people didn't create wealth?  The GI bill that black soldiers didn't get didn't create wealth?
13:08 <@dasunt> aestetix: Lots could be done.  For example, school funding could be at the federal or state level, instead of relying heavily on the local level.  So that regardless if a child is in a rich neighborhood or a poor one, educational opportunities are the same.
13:08 <@Dagmar> Oh look.  Economics again
13:08 < PrezPusyGrab> while white people were getting GI bills, home loans, and low credit rates, along with affordable health insurance, black people were denied ALL these things, and spent money on homes they would never own or pass to their children, and spent all their money taking care of their parents who were denied health insurance.
13:09 < aestetix> dasunt: I think the big question is why school has gotten so expensive in the US
13:09 <@Dagmar> Prevalence and "normalization" of loans
13:09 <@dasunt> aestetix: I'm talking K-12, not even college.
13:09 < aestetix> I mean, if someone has good grades and *wants* to go to an exclusive school, and gets accepted, I'm all in favor of figuring out a way to help them
13:09 <@Dagmar> Borrowed money has less "concern" (economic concept) so it literally has less value
13:09 <@Dagmar> ...which is why it takes more of it.
13:09 <@Dagmar> Loans cause price inflation.
13:10 <@dasunt> aestetix: We could task agencies with prosecuting employment and housing bias - self-funding through the fines they obtain.  We do something similar for medicare fraud, and it seems to work.
13:10 < aestetix> ugh there was just a study I saw on names not influencing hiring deciisions
13:10 < aestetix> I need to go find it
13:10 < PrezPusyGrab> The home is the most important piece of wealth in American history, and once you consider the home ownership prospects of African Americans you'll instantly understand how vital and essential the past remains in interpreting the present when it comes to race.
13:10 < aestetix> dasunt: that's tricky though
13:11 < aestetix> dasunt: I'm not in favor of actively seeking out bias. I am in favor of prosecuting it when it comes up organically though
13:11 <@dasunt> aestetix: Just need some statistics.  If behavior of a company is within X deviations of the mean, assume bias.
13:11 < aestetix> Because if you seek it out, you basically turn into the secret police
13:11 < aestetix> And further, if you are seeking it out, eventually you need to justify your own existence
13:11 <@dasunt> And?  Don't police do that already?
13:11 <@dasunt> They sit by roads, looking for speeders.
13:12 <@dasunt> They make undercover drug and sex buys on the street.
13:12 < aestetix> dasunt: yes, but police don't pick a car and follow the car to see if they are commiting a crime
13:12 <@dasunt> aestetix: Sure they do!
13:12 < aestetix> And yes there is the issue of quotas
13:13 < aestetix> dasunt: they can't, by law. Otherwise it's stalking.
13:13 <@dasunt> aestetix: Never drove a rusted out junker with a bunch of teenage friends as a kid, did you?
13:13 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix:  there's one police department that recently was driving into crowds of black people, stopping right before them, and chasing and tackling whoever ran.
13:13 < aestetix> I think that might qualify under reasonable suspicion ;)
13:13 <@Mirage> no, no..quotas don't exist (according to every police department media spokesperson speaking on record)
13:13 < PrezPusyGrab> another in mississippi was caught on tape telling officers to shoot black people
13:13 <@dasunt> aestetix: What?  We were a bunch of poor kids.  It's not like we were going to be buying new cars.
13:14 < aestetix> anyways
13:14 < PrezPusyGrab> if you don't actively seek it out, you'll miss all the crazy KKK members in law enforcement that have been recently rooted out
13:14 < aestetix> man
13:15 < PrezPusyGrab> https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/
13:15 < PigBot> Title: The FBI Has Quietly Investigated White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement (at theintercept.com) http://tinyurl.com/zf3pmdn
13:15 < aestetix> the last time I was in the US I remember noticing the police presence
13:15 <@dasunt> aestetix: But anyways, if you don't want them seeking it out, we could just have them investigate any claims brought to them.  Just stick up a sign in employee break areas like they do with everything else.
13:15 < aestetix> dasunt: I'd be in favor of that
13:15 <@dasunt> aestetix: Or have the company be required to give the information to all applicants.  That would probably be better, if we're targeting hiring discrimination.
13:15 < aestetix> yep
13:16 <@dasunt> "Call XXX-XXX-XXXX gov't agency to report any possible racial bias."
13:16 < PrezPusyGrab> the problem is, the economic conditions of black people came from racism, and cause the problems in black society today.  People ignorant of this just see black people not doing well, and assume they're subhuman, which causes more problems, and it creates a fucked up cycle.
13:16 < aestetix> sure
13:17 < PrezPusyGrab> if you don't address the racist aspect of it you can't fully fix the problem.
13:18 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: end the war on drugs
13:18 < aestetix> That will fix a *lot* of issues
13:18 < PrezPusyGrab> yeah, thats a good start
13:18 < PrezPusyGrab> seeing as how the war on drugs is essentially a war on black communities because of the way its enforced
13:18 < aestetix> And stop beating the shit out of people over "privilege"
13:18 < PrezPusyGrab> pointing out privilege isn't beating the shit out of people
13:19 < PrezPusyGrab> maybe some people are a little hostile about being treated subhuman by society and want to be understood more and are upset, but I honestly can't blame them.
13:19 < PrezPusyGrab> If you're tired of hearing about racism, imagine how fucking tired black people are of living it;
13:20 <@dasunt> Anyways, off to lunch.
13:22 <@dasunt> Ne'ermind, the users need me.
13:22  * dasunt sighs.
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13:24 <@dasunt> Now I'm free for lunch.  *sigh*
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13:25 <@Catonic> That was fun. Somehow had a USB disk eject and come back as a different drive, which confused md... on unintentional reboot, it picked the other drive.
13:25 <@Catonic> Reboot twice just to find the last file written to figure out which disk is good and which one needs to be re-paired.
13:25 <@Evilpig> had that happen to me once years ago 
13:26 <@Evilpig> had a usb drive hooked up to a server to backup to.  rebooted the server and it tried to boot from the usb drive and wouldn't boot. was acting like the drive had been wiped
13:26 < aestetix> yeah I'm off to play a game
13:26 <@Evilpig> that was back when booting usb was new-ish and it freaked me the fuck out.
14:25 <@Dagmar> The old "OPERATING SYSTEM NOT FOUND, BITCH" virus
14:39 <@dasunt> So what's in this big memo?
14:42 <@Mirage> daily moron customer:  i think there's something wrong with my servers!  I ordered 7 servers in 3 different data centers and the netmask and broadcast address doesn't match on all of them.  Please look into this.
14:43 <@dasunt> You didn't connect the tubes correctly, did you?
14:45 <@Mirage> Cases like this make me wish i had control of the network an routing.  I'd extend a single vlan between CA, CO, FL, and MA just for him, give him IPs in the same subnet across the board and make sure that the default route went through the farthest hop possible
14:45 <@Mirage> dasunt: i essentially told him he was an idiot and to shut the fuck up in the most polite way possible
15:23 <@Evilpig> the robo caller that was wanting to update my google listings was not amused by me asking to speak to jennifer again
15:34 <@Dagmar> If they ask why you should do a little method acting
15:34 <@Dagmar> You're a logger up in a logging camp and it's really lonely
15:35 <@Dagmar> You've been there for months without any female companionship and she had a real nice voice
15:35 <@Dagmar> Make sure that you rattle a belt buckle (or some silverware) around when you're mentioning her
15:41 < aestetix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PpE15yh58
15:41 < PigBot> Title: Painting Muhammad with Bob Ross | Louder With Crowder - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/gur5uad
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16:29  * dasunt ponders throwing a computer out the window.
16:30 <@dasunt> Cons:  The windows are probably pretty resiliant.  Pros:  I may hit a Superbowl LII goer.
17:14 < dfused> pre-burn the buildings to the ground.
18:04 <@oddball> Dagmar: You coming to the meeting tonight?
18:09 < aestetix> PrezPusyGrab: https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/status/959305513266593797
18:09 < aestetix> this is what identity politics leads to
18:10 < aestetix> that video is probably going to end Rose McGowan's career
18:42 < PrezPusyGrab> aestetix: well who is that created identity politics to begin with?
18:43 < PrezPusyGrab> who is it*
18:43 < PrezPusyGrab> gay people, black people, trans people, etc... never asked to be excluded from society and treated like they were subhuman
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18:44 < PrezPusyGrab> they aren't the ones who drew up the dividing lines, they're just living in them.
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22:01 <@Evilpig> fuck taxes
22:02 <@Evilpig> I swear to fucking god this is bullshit.  every god damn year I pay through the fucking nose all year to get to the end of the year and they take more
22:02 <@Evilpig> refund.  that's a god damn myth.  if you're single, white and middle class get fucked.
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