--- Log opened Thu Nov 30 00:00:15 2017
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06:13 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
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07:04  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
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08:02 <@Dagmar> Looks like things are bottoming out at around 79
08:03 <@Dagmar> It's about time shit drops by a large amount while I'm only holding fiat
09:19 <@dasunt> Still think it's a bubble.  :p
09:31 <@Dagmar> Not a bubble
09:31 <@Dagmar> ...although BTC's rise was driven largely by speculation and _hype_
09:32 <@Dagmar> LTC has been undergoing price suppression by BTC maximalists all year
09:32 <@Dagmar> THey _really_ don't want LTC stealing their thunder
09:41 <@Corydon76> dasunt: to claim a bubble, you must believe that the speculated price exceeds the intrinsic value
09:42 <@Dagmar> This tech will eventually make the way companies like Mastercard/Visa and even the fed obsolete
09:42 <@Dagmar> er make the way they operate
09:42 <@Corydon76> While Bitcoins, themselves, have no intrinsic value, it's the system of transactions that does.
09:42 <@Corydon76> And Bitcoins are valued as products of the system.
09:43 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: I seriously doubt that claim of making other institutions obsolete
09:43 <@Dagmar> for that matter, the dollar and USDT are worth about the same
09:43 <@Dagmar> Corydon76: That's nice. Perhaps you should read more carefully
09:43 <@Dagmar> I did clarify
09:44 <@Corydon76> I doubt that, as well.
09:44 <@Dagmar> A few of them probably _will_ be incredibly stupid tho and be forced out of the market
09:44 <@Dagmar> Huge Issue #1: Blockchains are not subject to "creative accounting practices"
09:45 <@Dagmar> Huge Issue #2: Blockchains are entirely auditable.
09:45 <@Corydon76> That errors cannot be reversed is what will prevent a distributed system from taking hold.  They may use a blockchain to keep records, but they alone will be the holders of the authoritative chain
09:45 <@Dagmar> Errors like what?
09:45 <@Corydon76> Which will allow them to back out transactions which are in error, reformulating the blockchain
09:46 <@Dagmar> Largely the only people who've done that sort of thing have been Ethereum
09:46 <@Corydon76> "Oops, I added an extra zero to that transaction amount"
09:46 <@Dagmar> Two problems with your claim
09:46 <@Dagmar> 1. That might deplete the original wallet, which means the transaction would fail
09:47 <@Dagmar> 2. Even if it did, pushing it back is not a big deal
09:47 <@Dagmar> This does _not_ represent any major difference over the way companies push transfers through banks via ACH now
09:47 <@Corydon76> That assumes that they don't have sufficient funds in the wallet
09:47 <@Dagmar> Blockchain just makes it ridiculously faster, and auditable
09:47 <@Corydon76> When dealing with large governmental entities, they generally do have those amounts available
09:48 <@Dagmar> Oh no, so subsidiary A gets 10x what it's supposed to handed to it because for some stupid reason despite everything being fairly automated, someone designed a process where an idiot is allowed to type in the numbers used to transfer large amounts of money, _manually_
09:49 <@Dagmar> So they can't immediately send it back why exactly?
09:49 <@Corydon76> Even if an institution has a public blockchain, there's going to be plenty of background traditional accounting in the background before a transaction is advanced to the public blockchain
09:49 <@Dagmar> Yes, and this no longer takes place on paper ledgers
09:49 <@Corydon76> They can immediately send it back.  But that also means that the error is encoded forever in the blockchain
09:50 <@Dagmar> People put ascii dick pics on blockchains
09:50 <@Dagmar> What's your point
09:50 <@Dagmar> This is what audit logs are all about
09:50 <@Corydon76> Yes, but the transition from paper to electronic spreadsheets was a fairly simple move.  You're talking about a completely different system.
09:51 <@Dagmar> No, I'm talking about a completely faster system
09:51 <@Dagmar> ...which is an atomic upgrade to the way companies currently perform transactions via ACG
09:51 <@Dagmar> er ACH
09:51 <@Dagmar> ...and as an added bonus, they can still let the DOJ scrutinize their records in their ever-expanding hunt for terrurists
09:53 <@Dagmar> ACH transfers take whole days to perform
09:54 <@Corydon76> ACH transfers only take that long by mutual decision of the banks.  The actual transaction happens much quicker.
09:54 <@Dagmar> It's a process that by now should be considered quite byzantine, because companies like Wells Fargo run circles around it on the daily
09:55 <@eryc> banks are already moving toward blockchain, but it will be their own private blockchain
09:55 <@Corydon76> When errors occur in ACH, the errors can be fixed momentarily, and don't take until the next day
09:55 <@Dagmar> That's nice.  Errors don't occur in blockchains.
09:56 <@Dagmar> There is no place where some mysterious bean counter can accidentally muff up copy-pasting a number from one spreadsheet cell to another
09:56 <@Corydon76> Humans submit transactions, and humans make errors.  The blockchain can faithfully reproduce those errors.
09:56 <@Dagmar> Bullshit.  You're shifting goalposts
09:56 <@Corydon76> Technically, ACH doesn't make errors, either; it's the humans behind it.
09:56 <@Dagmar> You're blaming blockchains for being susceptible to the same things ACH are
09:56 <@Dagmar> ...while giving ACH a free pass.
09:56 <@Corydon76> Yeah, and?
09:57 <@Corydon76> It's the devil you know versus the devil you don't
09:57 <@eryc> BANKS ARE ALREADY IMPLEMENTING BLOCKCHAIN
09:57 <@Dagmar> You might as well be complaining that people shouldn't switch from lamps to candles because candles are flammable
09:57 <@Dagmar> You are entirely wrong.
09:58 <@Corydon76> Fascinating analogy, since history was the reverse:  switching from candles to lamps
09:58 <@Dagmar> Don't fuckin' care
09:58 <@Dagmar> Your argument makes an equal amount of sense
10:00 <@Corydon76> I think we're both at "Don't care".  Argument is going nowhere.  You're a True Believer(tm).  Got it.
10:05 <@dasunt> Corydon76: I do believe that bitcoin's intrisinc value is far below the current price.  Other cryptocurrencies seem better.
10:08 <@Dagmar> No, but thanks for that last minute personal attack
10:09 <@Dagmar> It really, really makes your position sound more well-considered
10:09 <@Corydon76> dasunt: what value do you believe is intrinsic, per Bitcoin?
10:10 <@Dagmar> At the moment, much closer to what it is right now
10:11 <@Dagmar> Somwhere between 6k and 8k based on the present adoption rates
10:11 <@dasunt> Corydon76: If Bitcoin is a currency, then I've seen its usefulness being defined as it divided  by the value of the illegal market (the analysis I saw put it around $600, IIRC, but that totally ignored velocity).
10:11 <@dasunt> OTOH, BTC seems to have competitors with more functionality - quicker transaction times, auto-tumbling, etc.
10:11 <@Dagmar> Perhaps half of that if BCH has _any_ legs, and I'm being very, very generous in that assessment
10:11 <@Dagmar> BCH seems like a complete con to me
10:12 <@Dagmar> ETH does a better job at transaction times and lower fees, and it's not even _meant_ as a primary currency
10:16 <@dasunt> So how does Lightning supposed to work between two individuals (Alice and Bob) who don't have an existing relationship?  Do Alice and Bob both have to trust an Eve, where Eve is the equivalent of big financial company holding enough BTC to be widely trusted (accepted)?
10:16 <@Dagmar> Apparently not a lot differently from sending an encrypted email
10:17 <@Dagmar> They worked out some mechanism that makes the exchange dependent upon mirroring the transactions between blockchains
10:17 <@Dagmar> RangerZ would be the one to ask for specifics, I suspect
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10:24 <@dasunt> He's not around, it seems.
10:56 <@_NSAKEY> https://twitter.com/RighteousCoder/status/936265201019752448
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11:41 <@EnabrinTain> _NSAKEY: +1
11:45 <@Corydon76> Don't understand why it's called the iCon, then, instead of the iCockRing; after all, that's what it really is.
12:31 < aestetix> Latest allegations: Russell Simmons
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12:45 <@dasunt> Who
13:45 <@Dagmar> The guy that headed up Def Jam Records
13:45 <@Dagmar> ...which sort of shows that they're trying to be a class act.
13:46 <@Dagmar> You can be damn sure people at No Limit records have done worse
14:53 <@dasunt> Rumors are that Tillerson is on the way out.
14:54 <@shapr> seems pretty likely at this point
14:56 <@dasunt> Someone needs to do a photo montage of everyone who Trump started out with, and then airbrush out everyone who has fallen from grace and has been forced out, Stalin-style.
14:56 <@Dagmar> Better yet, cross them out with a red grease pencil
14:56 <@dasunt> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#/media/File:Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin2.jpg
14:58 <@dasunt> I kind of feel that if Trump wants Tillerson to be out, that's probably a point in Tillerson's favor.
15:00 <@dasunt> The supposed replacement is a Republican ex-Representative from Kansas.
15:03 < K`Tetch> Dagmar - i've seen those already, erm, david gerald (trouble with tribbles writer) has been posting htem in the past
15:04 <@Dagmar> Yeah but that's some tiny digital image
15:04 <@Dagmar> Trust me, having this on your wall about 24 inches or larger on the diagonal will make a much more profound impression on the police
15:13 <@Corydon76> Does it make a bigger impression if the red X is written in pig's blood?
15:16 <@Dagmar> While that's a nice touch, I think it's probably more important to connect with what the officers saw TV psychopaths doing when they were children
15:16 <@Dagmar> THey might not remember the movie or even having ever seen it, but they will IMMEDIATELY jump to conclusions about the nature of the collection of grease pencil X's
15:17 <@Dagmar> ...and then you can say with a perfectly straight face, "Yes, I am the mastermind behind the disempowerment and deconstruction of the Trump administration."
15:33 <@dasunt> LOL.
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 01 00:00:16 2017