--- Log opened Tue Nov 21 00:00:01 2017
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03:25 < aestetix> 1 BTC = 8190.01 USD
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07:02 <@Dagmar> aestetix: Bigger news... 1 USDT probably != 1 USD
07:03 <@Dagmar> Seeing as how Bitfinex has apparently been treating it like a currency they can just _make up_, in addition to having about 30 million of it stolen a couple of days ago
07:11 <@Dagmar> I'd set up a betting pool for when Bitfinex gets shut down using Ethereum, but it would get hacked
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07:49 < aestetix> thanks systemd
07:49 < aestetix> turned a 30 second fix into at least an hour of research
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08:13 < xray> aestetix: Ins't that true for all tools we haven't mastered yet?
08:14 < xray> Systemd will fall to my steely resolve, and overwhelming persistence like every tool before it.
08:15 < xray> I admit it is worth debating the merits of a tool as it makes us better engineers
08:21 <@Dagmar> Why have simple when you can have complex and poorly documented?
08:22 < xray> Pretty much every tool I have ever used was poorly documented at first
08:22 < xray> and seemed overly complicated
08:23 < xray> systemd ties deeper into the OS so it is more complicated than other solutions
08:23 < xray> I look at things pragmatically
08:23 < xray> I often have no control over what the OS developers decide to do
08:24 < xray> I also have little control over what my company decides to use
08:24 < xray> other than going to work for someone else
08:24 < xray> I do have control over what I learn
08:24 < xray> so I decided to get very very good at learning new things
08:25 <@_NSAKEY> The systemd debacles reminds me of something I told a co-worker, who has the opposite problem of you guys. He came to Linux after systemd.
08:25 < xray> which path do you think would lead to a life time of employment?
08:25 <@_NSAKEY> He also got me into R. A. Salvatore's Drizzt books, which feature big events that alter the way combat works every time there's a D&D edition change.
08:26 < xray> flailing over systemd or mastering every technology put before you
08:26 <@_NSAKEY> I explained it to him as, "Think back to the Salvatore books and the edition changes. systemd was an event where the magic just got changed." He burst out laughing, but he understood the pain of older Linux users completely after that.
08:26 < xray> for the trolls: that does not mean we don't debate the merits of a tool in order to build a better one
08:26 < xray> standing on the shoulders of giants and all that
08:27 < xray> _NSAKEY: I totally agree
08:27 < xray> I have found that embracing the pain makes me far more marketable
08:28 < xray> Improvise, adapt, overcome
08:29 <@_NSAKEY> I still don't like systemd, but I suffer its existence for the time being.
08:29 < xray> Technology falls before me like dry grass in a fire
08:29 < xray> I am a Hacker
08:29 <@_NSAKEY> I got familiar enough with freebsd for bet-hedging purposes, but all of my lab VMs that I care about are running CentOS 7.
08:30 < xray> Think that some obscure config will save you. HA
08:30 <@Corydon76> The key to suffering through systemd is to acknowledge that it has advantages
08:30 < xray> When asked: Can you work with _______ OS
08:30 < xray> the answer is yes
08:31 <@Dagmar> Are you fuckin' high
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08:31 < xray> The only variable is how much I charge
08:31 < xray> No I'm just very very dedicated to my craft
08:31 < aestetix> Corydon76: but if you want those advantages, why not just use BSD?
08:32 <@Corydon76> aestetix: because BSD doesn't have those advantages
08:32 <@Dagmar> Small advantages that come with a large pile of disadvantages are worthless
08:32 <@_NSAKEY> Corydon76: Are you referring to the fact that some of the tooling is actually not half-bad to use?
08:33 < xray> Dagmar: Sorry I didn't realize your comment was to Corydon76
08:33 <@Corydon76> I'm referring to the fact that systemd is designed to better support mobile devices, both in terms of faster boot and better battery life
08:33 <@Dagmar> xray: You weren't the one grinding up systemd in a spoon
08:33 < xray> LoL
08:34 <@Corydon76> And when more than half of devices nowadays are mobile, that's a HUGE problem for Linux prior to systemd
08:34 < xray> That explains the glazed look and moaning
08:34 <@Dagmar> Meanwhile, because of shit that's appropriate on a phone, everyone running a server has to suffer
08:34 < xray> :)
08:34 <@Dagmar> No, that's not at all like Microsoft attempting to make the same version of Windows run on everything from a vibrating cock ring to a 40 foot projections screen
08:35 <@Corydon76> The problem of systemd is that it's new, and people aren't used to the way it does things.
08:35 < aestetix> Because it throws decades of process out the window?
08:35 < aestetix> And also, I have heard Lennart is kind of a prick.
08:36 < xray> The horse and buggy was centuries of process and I'm glad they threw it out
08:36 <@_NSAKEY> aestetix: I think that one congress talk that he interrupted/hijacked is all the proof anyone needs that he's a prick.
08:36 < xray> sorry that was a bit of an oversimplification to make a point
08:36 <@_NSAKEY> The speaker should have very firmly told him to go fuck the business end of a rake, but was too nice to do that.
08:36 < aestetix> xray: yes, that's because automobiles have clear advantages
08:36 < xray> If the threw out the horse and buggy for crawling that would not be good
08:37 <@Corydon76> Automobiles didn't have near the amount of advantages when they were first introduced
08:37 < xray> What we don't see today are the disadvantages of horses
08:38 < xray> read what it was like in Chicago due to horses before cars
08:38 < xray> If you think cars pollute . . .
08:38 < xray> but that is off the topic systemd
08:39 <@Corydon76> And automobiles were nearly banned from city streets when they were first introduced, because brakes were an afterthought.  Kid runs out in the street, gets killed by a passing vehicle
08:40 <@Corydon76> Marketers made up jaywalking to distract the public.  "Jay", at the time, was a fairly offensive insult
08:41 < aestetix> so that's where that term comes from
08:41 < aestetix> Also explains why the concept doesn't exit in europe
08:42 < aestetix> I'm not aware of any laws about it. It's more like "you're walking in the street? you're a fucking idiot"
08:42 <@Corydon76> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/why-is-it-called-jaywalking
08:42 < PigBot`> Title: Why Jaywalking is Called Jaywalking | Merriam-Webster (at www.merriam-webster.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9qdw6vz
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08:42 <@_NSAKEY> aestetix: Jay was basically slang for hick, back then.
08:43 <@_NSAKEY> Corydon76: I've read about what you just said, re: Jaywalking.
08:43 <@_NSAKEY> Old cars were pretty scary, compared to what we have these days.
08:43 <@_NSAKEY> Even in the 50s.
08:43 <@Corydon76> One of my tricks for finding information on Google is adding the word "etymology" to the search
08:44 <@_NSAKEY> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
08:44 < PigBot`> Title: Crash Test 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu (Frontal Offset) IIHS 50th Anniversary - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/llkt8x7
08:44 <@_NSAKEY> There's an illustration of what I'm talking about, at least as far as crash test safety is concerned.
08:45 <@Dagmar> This isn't a matter of people being "used" to the way systemd does things.  The syntax it uses is unecessarily complex and arcane.  It also combines the best of breed of things we have learned are very fucking stupid.
08:45 < xray> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFn7MiJz_s
08:45 < PigBot`> Title: Adam Ruins Everything - Why Jaywalking Is a Crime - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/zc3n6p4
08:45 <@Dagmar> 1. One size does not fit all.
08:45 <@Dagmar> 2. Unix tools are small tools you stick together to do complex things, because that makes them flexible and debuggable.
08:45 < xray> Sorry for derailing the systemd discussion
08:46 <@Dagmar> 3. initd should not be cancer.
08:46 <@_NSAKEY> Dagmar: Are you waiting for the day when Linus gets fed up and writes his own init system?
08:46 <@Dagmar> 4. initd should be fucking small and reliable.
08:46 <@Dagmar> 5. Initd should not hand out root shells
08:47 <@Dagmar> _NSAKEY: He's never needed to
08:47 < xray> Dagmar: That was a basic tenant but I read a paper that says it has been violated by the "founders" on a regular basis because there are some things for which that doesn't work in practice
08:47 < aestetix> ugh
08:47 <@_NSAKEY> I'm kind of hoping Linus gets pissed enough at systemd to write his own init system.
08:47 < aestetix> not a fan of Adam Ruins Everything
08:47 < xray> aestetix: I agree
08:47 < aestetix> _NSAKEY: maybe we'll get one from rms
08:48 < aestetix> xray: especially considering several of his videos have been fully debunked
08:48 < xray> some of his arguments are a bit oversimplified to make a point
08:48 <@_NSAKEY> There was speculation on the internet a while back that he could reach that boiling point one day, because he's done things like say that the init system can no longer be trusted to do the sane thing.
08:48 < aestetix> xray: that' an understatement
08:48 < xray> He is a comedian and it is entertainment
08:49 < xray> with a few details sprinkled in
08:49 < xray> OK systemd
08:50 < xray> I think systemd like all tools will get better engineering over time
08:50 < xray> or it will motivate someone to build the next thing (as already suggested)
08:51 <@_NSAKEY> I doubt that will happen until Lennart moves on to the new shiny. PulseAudio was a flaming pile of turds in a bag until Lennart moved on and let the grown-ups take over.
08:51 < xray> In the mean time I'm going to learn the tool that was handed to me
08:52 < xray> There are some downsides to open source. Anyone can join in, and some times you get more "personality" than engineering.
08:52 < xray> Real engineering is hard
08:52 < xray> any idiot can build a bad tool
08:53 <@Dagmar> If Poettering tries to fork the linux kernel, I'm chipping in $100 to have him killed
08:53 < xray> it takes exceptional attention to detail and work to make a good tool
08:53 < xray> and even more of that for a great tool
08:53 < xray> vote with your time
08:56 <@_NSAKEY> Dagmar: LOL
08:56 < aestetix> Maybe Poettering could join forces with RMS and finally get hurd out the door
08:56 <@Dagmar> jumping jesus
08:56 <@Dagmar> https://pastebin.freeswitch.org/view/3aef660c#L4
08:56 < PigBot`> Title: Untitled - FreeSWITCH Pastebin (at pastebin.freeswitch.org) http://tinyurl.com/y86owshk
08:57 < xray> aestetix: you just want to see the implosion
08:57 <@Dagmar> That person is asking for help with their bash for loops in ##Linux
08:59 < aestetix> xray: yeah, I can't wait for popcornd
10:12 <@rattle> It's party time in Harare.
10:19 < aestetix> I guess it's time to find out what kinds of horrible things Mugabe was keeping in check.
10:20 < aestetix> The US popped Hussein and got ISIS.
10:22 <@rattle> There's a difference there..  When the US unseated Hussein, it also dismantled the security infrastructure plunging the entire country into anarchy.
10:22 <@rattle> In this case, the military and the rest of the government is still around.
10:23 < aestetix> Yes, IIRC they are the ones who kicked Mugabe out
10:25 <@dasunt> Dagmar: I'd be tempted to throw in another $100.  But why wait until he tries to fork the linux kernel?
10:33 < aestetix> https://twitter.com/B_Ehrenreich/status/932326082757451776
10:33 < PigBot`> Title: Barbara Ehrenreich on Twitter: "20 states now take away the drivers licenses of people who fall behind in their student loan payments— a measure no doubt designed to ease t… https://t.co/Y4KgFemvgd" (at twitter.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9czp6yw
10:33 < aestetix> Jesus it sucks to be in the US
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10:47 < aestetix> talking to a friend who is from south africa
10:47 < dfused> lies
10:47 < aestetix> he suggested this book to even begin to understand what's going on there
10:47 < aestetix> https://www.amazon.com/Presidents-Keepers-Those-keeping-prison-ebook/dp/B076YBL1WS/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
10:47 < PigBot`> aestetix: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
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12:53 < aestetix> bye bye charlie rose
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14:21 <@dasunt> So fortune had quotes by Hitler?
14:25 <@dasunt> Huh:  https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/usr.bin/fortune/datfiles/fortunes?r1=325781&r2=325780&pathrev=325781
14:25 < PigBot`> Title: [base] Diff of /head/usr.bin/fortune/datfiles/fortunes (at svnweb.freebsd.org) http://tinyurl.com/yczfyldn
14:27 <@dasunt> IMO, some of them are clearly WTF, but some of them probably were worth keeping as notable quotes.
14:29 <@dasunt> Not really sure why the Poul Henningsen quote was removed, to be honest.  It wasn't a quote by Hitler.  It wasn't a quote praising Hitler.
14:51 <@Dagmar> If you want to be bastard, submit a patch that adds them all back to offensive fortune database
14:51 <@Dagmar> That way they only show up for crazy bastards who put `fortune -o` in their ~/.profile
14:53 <@_NSAKEY> Dagmar: That might not work. https://twitter.com/mwlauthor/status/577878974723973120
14:53 <@Dagmar> WTF
14:54 <@_NSAKEY> Just tested on a FreeBSD box.
14:54 <@_NSAKEY> $ fortune
14:54 <@_NSAKEY> Per buck you get more computing action with the small computer.
14:54 <@_NSAKEY>                 -- R. W. Hamming
14:54 <@_NSAKEY> $ fortune -o
14:54 <@_NSAKEY> No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
14:54 <@Dagmar> Considering that they were _off by default_ and mostly dirty limericks, that's fairly weaksauce
14:54 <@Dagmar> If someone's offended by them they can fuck right off for missing the point entirely
14:56 <@_NSAKEY> Found some files with -o at the end of the name.
14:56 <@_NSAKEY> Well, just one, really.
14:56 <@_NSAKEY> But, -o is still busted. A shame.
14:57 <@Corydon76> If the flag is not disabled, I'd guess there's something you can install in ports to add the necessary files
14:57 <@Corydon76> It's just that they're missing by default
14:57 <@Corydon76> Same thing for sudo_insults
14:57 <@Dagmar> Almost certainly
14:59 <@dasunt> Dagmar: I'm not sure what's offensive about some of the quotes though.
14:59 <@Dagmar> Precisely
14:59 <@dasunt> Is quoting Hitler's hypocrisy offensive?  To who?  Nazis?
15:00 <@Dagmar> 20 years ago the stuff that was moved into -o was possibly offensive
15:00 <@Dagmar> Nowadays it's just "marginally off-color"
15:00 <@Dagmar> Perhaps "lacking in taste".
15:00 <@Dagmar> None of it was like, "YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE WITH FLEAS."
15:00 <@dasunt> Do we need a disclaimer?  "Disclaimer:  Hitler was a very bad man who killed millions."
15:01 <@Corydon76> dasunt: consider FreeBSD machines installed in Israel, which are configured, by default, to emit a fortune upon login.
15:01 <@Corydon76> There's your answer.
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15:02 <@dasunt> Corydon76: And?
15:03 <@Corydon76> In certain environments, such as that one, the inclusion of a Hitler quote is de-facto offensive.
15:03 <@dasunt> "Would you please have another look at my nose and put in that cocaine stuff" - Adolf Hitler, quoted by Dr. Giesing.
15:03 <@dasunt> Literally, that's one of the fortunes removed in the diff.
15:04 <@dasunt> I'm not seeing how that's offensive.
15:04 <@Corydon76> I don't have to be offended, myself, to see why someone might consider such a quote to be less silly than patently offensive.
15:06 <@Dagmar> I suppose they'd consider it offsensive if they're a big _fan_ of Hitler
15:06 <@dasunt> True.  Hitler the drug user, while historically correct, doesn't really go well with his fans.
15:07 <@Corydon76> I can both agree with your pedantry and still understand why someone might find the inclusion of such a quote offensive.
15:08 <@dasunt> I don't disagree that some may be offended, but I tend not to cater to those sorts of people.
15:08 <@Corydon76> You may not.  But I understand if FreeBSD wishes to
15:09 <@dasunt> Sure, that's their right.  It's my right to claim it's idiotic.
15:09 <@Corydon76> They are already marginalized enough, as it is, by Linux.  They don't need yet another cause to switch away from their platform by professional users.
15:09 <@dasunt> They better remove the Stalin quotes next.
15:10 <@Corydon76> They may.
15:10 <@Corydon76> You should submit a patch
15:10 <@dasunt> I'm sure someone already has....
15:20 <@dasunt> The NetBSD discussion on this is vaguely interesting.
16:44 <@ezelkow1> fucking perl, how the fuck do you have packages all time stamped in the future in your repos
16:45 <@ezelkow1> spent all day just trying to setup a damn dev environment and perl is fucking it all up
17:07 <@Dagmar> You sure you know what day it is?
17:17 < aestetix> microaggressionday
19:46 <@Dagmar> Wake me when it's macro-aggression day
19:54 <@ezelkow1> yea they were like 2-3 days in the future or something crazy, good thing i can work from home the rest of the week, ill just start this whole thing over
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20:53 <@Dagmar> just touch all the files
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21:01 <@ezelkow1> well i dont think thats really the issue, some of them just fail to build for reasons unknown because perl
21:02 <@ezelkow1> someone else at work gave me a tar with everything already compiled that i may try
21:07 <@Dagmar> Perl's failure messages are generally quite clear
21:07 <@Dagmar> Maybe you should try a pastebin now and again
21:07 <@Dagmar> 'cuz _some_ of us install stuff through CPAN on a semi-monthly basis without issues
21:16 <@ezelkow1> alright, maybe tomorrow when i get back to it
21:19 <@Dagmar> We can get it sorted
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 22 00:00:02 2017