--- Log opened Mon Oct 23 00:00:07 2017
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05:42 < aestetix> ugh
05:42 < aestetix> I've been using twitter in readonly mode for about a year
05:42 < aestetix> but it's actually getting bad enough that I can't do that anymore
06:13 < cyberanger> I can't do read-only, I tried during the election. So I started following more travel bloggers and technical people who kept to tech.
06:14 < cyberanger> Even that's becoming hard though
06:15 < cyberanger> Also adding more locals helped somewhat (Canada being less political) but that's hit and miss.
06:15 < cyberanger> NAFTA has kinda screwed that up (and I'm not even here under NAFTA, Canadian Student Visas are the same process for everyone)
06:20 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:22 < aestetix> By read-only I mean having a list of journalists I trust and manually going to their twitter pages
06:22 < aestetix> But now I'm running into issues where websites I used to trust are embeddeding nasty tweets
06:23 < aestetix> I may have to block twitter from my hosts file
06:23  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
06:24 < aestetix> It just seems like everyone has gotten meaner and nastier.
06:26 < aestetix> and stupider
06:28 < aestetix> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41719081
06:28 < PigBot> Title: Catalonia Spain: Officials 'won't follow orders from Madrid' - BBC News (at www.bbc.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9kur62h
06:29 < aestetix> hmmmmm.
06:29 < aestetix> I wonder if there would be a market for selling "sjw attack" insurance
07:51 < aestetix> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/922440008971292672
07:51 < PigBot> Title: Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "I had a very respectful conversation with the widow of Sgt. La David Johnson, and spoke his name from beginning, without hesitation!" (at twitter.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9r4zyd7
07:51 < aestetix> he doesn't know when to shut up
07:52 <@Dolemite> He _always_ has to get in the last word
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07:59 <@Corydon76> aestetix: there would be a market for such insurance.  However, as all insurance covering liability does, it would EXCLUDE willful acts.
08:13 <@rattle> I think he believes he's "winning" as long as he's controlling the news cycle, which he is.
08:14 <@rattle> If the tax plan issues were getting as much attention as this fucking phone call, it would not work out well for him.
08:15 < aestetix> rattle: so all these stupid drama episodes that keep filling the media are distracting from one policy failure after another?
08:15 <@rattle> I'm as disgusted as everyone else about Trump's treatment of gold star families, but perhaps we should be taking about things like how they want to place limits on 401k contributions..  As that might actually fuck over everyone reading this.
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08:18 <@rattle> The 401k limit thing might be dead in the water at this point because it surfaced and got attention, but who knows what else is floating around and not getting attention..
08:18 <@rattle> And this month, the first round of health care cost increases are starting to become known.  I've heard almost nothing about that..
08:19 < aestetix> Wouldn't they *want* to push that news out so they can blame it all on Obama?
08:19 <@rattle> It's going to be interesting to see how they play it..  Because many of the issues surfacing are because of handling of things over the past nine months.
08:20 <@rattle> And that last EO in this regard..  Ug.. Bad.
08:20 < aestetix> I do wonder if this gold star thing will take trump out.
08:20 < aestetix> Since IIRC McCarthy was finally taken out because he went after a decorated military veteran
08:21 <@Dolemite> It didn't affect him much in the election
08:21 < aestetix> Dolemite: it totally tanked his polls.
08:21 <@Dolemite> And he was showing fangs and claws in that fracas last Fall
08:21 <@rattle> The fact anyone even wanted to try that 401k thing is scary.  They wanted to change the cap from $18k to $2.4k.  Crazy!!
08:21 <@Dolemite> aestetix: He still won
08:21 < aestetix> Dolemite: that's because his opponent was the worst candidate in history.
08:21 <@Dolemite> rattle: I heard that on the radio this morning and could only think WTF!?
08:22 <@rattle> Dolemite: Right?!
08:22 < dfused> what is th rationale of wanting it limited?
08:22 <@rattle> I cram as much as I possibly can in my 401k.  That's one of the few financial mechanisms that really helps folks that are not rich..
08:22 < aestetix> My optimistic hope for the US at this point is that people will stop pretending POTUS is some Jesus figure and start focusing on the local level again.
08:23 <@rattle> dfused: Because tons of folks, TONS, push every penny they can into it.  And if that suddenly become taxable like a Roth, it's a great way to tax the shit out of the middle class without them realizing it.
08:24 < aestetix> ok, maybe I don't understand 401k so well. I thought you got taxed heavily if you withdrew money before you retired, and once you retire there's no tax
08:24 < aestetix> or am I totally wrong?
08:24 <@rattle> Basically.
08:24 <@Corydon76> dfused: it's a tax loophole.  Their idea is to get rid of loopholes while lowering the overall rate.  Unstated is that this particular tax loophole helps mostly the middle class
08:25 <@Corydon76> The other side of that is that the mortgage interest rate loophole, which benefits the rich, mostly, is a loophole they won't be getting rid of.
08:25 < aestetix> So the plan is to start taxing it after you retire now too?
08:25 <@rattle> Basically, you can shove a bunch of your income pre-tax into a hole that you can access when you retire.  And that hole happens to be index funds that preform really well.  So it's like a no-brainer from an investment perspective.
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08:25 <@Corydon76> aestetix: They've always taxed you after you retire
08:25 <@Corydon76> The point of a 401(k) is to DEFER taxes on that income until later
08:26 <@rattle> And the interest they make over the deferred period is VERY significant.  So it works out really well.
08:26 <@Corydon76> The idea being that after you retire, you'll require less income, so that money will be taxed at a lower effective rate
08:26 <@rattle> And, it actually helps the economy in the process, because that's money active in the market.
08:29 <@Corydon76> Remember how the American tax system works.  The first $10k anybody makes in a year is taxed at around 10%.  The next $25k that anybody makes is taxed at 15%, and so on.  Only if you make more than a certain amount is that portion taxed at 39.4%, the highest bracket
08:30 <@Corydon76> So if you can defer some of the income, then you're effectively removing it from being taxed in that higher bracket, and deferring it until a time when it might be taxed at a lower bracket.
08:38 <@rattle> So in short, lowering that cap would have been a super huge "fuck you" to the middle class.
08:39 <@Corydon76> And it's only because it has that high cap that it primarily benefits the middle class
08:39 <@rattle> Funny, as we're discussing this, the first time I'm seeing it talked about on the news.  Trump said it's not going to happen.
08:39 <@Corydon76> Without the cap, the 401(k) could be a vehicle to sheltering that income to be passed on to one's heirs
08:40 <@rattle> I'm amazed the idea was even considered.
08:40 <@Corydon76> And yet, without lowering that cap, the whole tax plan is ruined, in terms of being initially revenue-neutral
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08:41 <@rattle> The fact that was such a huge factor is basically proof the whole goal of this plan is to fuck the middle class.
08:41 < aestetix> You mean what's left of it.
08:41 <@rattle> You've got to have a bit of knowledge about economics to know what a huge deal that is.  It was totally an effort to hoodwink the middle class.
08:42 <@Corydon76> rattle: you can't trust what Trump has to say in public, though.  He could reverse that in 12 or 24 hours
08:42 <@rattle> True.  But I think they've got the message that one isn't gonna fly..
08:43 <@rattle> Of course, one of the reasons that's the case is probably because it would have totally fucked the market too..  All that 401k money streaming in is pretty important..
08:43 <@Corydon76> He honestly could get his tax plan through if he took off the table the lowering of the highest tax bracket
08:43 <@Corydon76> But he won't.  That is the whole point of the plan, for him.
08:44 <@rattle> The number of people who do the max contribution is HUGE.  And the number of companies that match contributions is pretty significant too.  Those are big market needle mover numbers.
08:46 <@rattle> I think the odds of getting a tax plan through congress are extremely low.
08:46 <@Dolemite> Yeah, if I only contributed the new max amount, I'd be able to retire shortly after burial.
08:46 <@rattle> And I think when it fails, the market is going to make a HARD shift to bear..  It isn't going to be pretty.
08:46 <@Corydon76> I think the odds of getting ANYTHING through Congress are extremely low
08:46 <@Corydon76> Anything other than the renaming of federal buildings
08:47 <@rattle> I must admit, I've been very active in investing lately because I lost so god damn much in my divorce that my whole plan for later life is basically fucked.
08:47 < aestetix> yay feminism
08:47 <@rattle> A change like that would destroy me.
08:48 <@Corydon76> aestetix: actually, feminism would tend to benefit rattle nowadays, as in yesteryear, the assumption would be that women would need financial support throughout their entire lives
08:49 <@rattle> My situation is very complex because my ex-wife attempted to destroy my life on the way out.
08:50 <@Corydon76> Yuck
08:50 <@Corydon76> Toxic people
08:50 <@Dolemite> rattle: Unfortunately a common problem
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08:51 <@rattle> Corydon isn't entirely wrong.  Ironically, the thing that mattered the most in that regard was that her family is stinking rich.  I was able to dodge alimony because she's got millions coming to her, and I've got zilch.  So when those numbers play out, she'd be paying me.  But, because I have a penis, I don't get to force that card.
08:52 <@rattle> I've been joking that I'm not against gay marriage.  Not because I have any issue with gays..  But because I'm against ALL marriage.
08:52 <@rattle> s/not/now/
08:53 <@Corydon76> I've been telling Peaches that if he wants to use his disability to get out from under his student debt, he should divorce me, first
08:53 <@Corydon76> Otherwise, the IRS sees it as a windfall and taxes the shit out of me
08:54 <@Corydon76> He flatly refused
08:55 <@rattle> I really can't complain though.  I'm truly happy with my girlfriend in my Manhattan studio apartment.  I was truly miserable with my ex-wife in on my three acres of land and giant house.  It's amazing how your perspective of things can radically change.
08:56 <@rattle> I will never, ever, again, maintain a fucking lawn.
08:57 <@Corydon76> That size of lawn calls for a lawn service.  Even my half acre needs something like 4 shifts of time for me to complete it.
08:57 <@rattle> I will also never again sleep with someone who finds it rational to buy a $10k purse.
08:58 <@Corydon76> I find that rational in certain circumstances, but then again, I don't plan on sleeping with you.
08:59 <@Corydon76> The rationality is in cases where you're attempting to forge a business relationship worth many times that and you need to convey that you're on "their" level
08:59 <@Corydon76> But just to have?  There's no rationality in that.  It's a desire, not rationality.
09:00 <@rattle> During the timeframe when I was consulting she bought two Berkins.  Two.  Not one, two.
09:01 <@rattle> Two.
09:01 <@rattle> One, and then two.  2
09:01 < aestetix> what is a berkin?
09:01 < aestetix> ... is that a $10k purse?
09:02 <@rattle> https://www.google.com/search?q=birkin&safe=off&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj817Kh9IbXAhVH5oMKHR5lB3AQsxgIJw&biw=1348&bih=930
09:02 < PigBot> Title: birkin - Google Search (at www.google.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9ouk9sn
09:02 <@rattle> Two.  Of those.  Two.
09:05 <@rattle> II
09:06 <@Dolemite> You could buy two really nice SUVs for the cost of one of those bags (looking at the median price range on the link)
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09:13 <@rattle> YES.  YOU COULD.
09:15 <@rattle> Very easy to make bad judgment calls.  I was the CISSP, so it seemed to make sense that I managed the home network and phones and such.  She was the CPA, so it seemed to make sense that she managed the money.  Oops.
09:15 < aestetix> Why is that bag worth $10k?
09:16 < aestetix> oh wow more like $15k
09:16 <@Dolemite> More like $85K
09:16 < aestetix> Is it like completely handcrafted?
09:16 <@Dolemite> wait, no, my bad old man eyes
09:17 <@Dolemite> There were only two over the $100K mark on that link
09:17 <@Dolemite> one for $250K and another for $140K.  Most of the rest average in the $20K range
09:17 <@dasunt> Do you want socialism?  Because this is how we get socialism.
09:18 <@Dolemite> No, this is how we get the French Revolution
09:18 <@Dolemite> s/get/got
09:18 < aestetix> I would so relish watching a baby puke up on one of those bags.
09:19  * shapr slowly spins while thinking in French
09:19 <@shapr> ahem, revolves
09:21 <@dasunt> New idea:  Lets raise taxes on the 1% until Birkin goes out of business.
09:22 <@shapr> evening out income tends to increase growth of the economy
09:22 < aestetix> I still don't understand why someone would pay so much
09:22 < aestetix> The only logic I see from the internet is that celebrities have this bag
09:22 <@shapr> that is, when a larger quantity of people has higher income than before, the economy/society improves
09:23 <@dasunt> I have a book in my reading list that argues war is a great way of leveling out income.
09:23 <@dasunt>  https://www.google.com/search?q=birkin&safe=off&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj817Kh9IbXAhVH5oMKHR5lB3AQsxgIJw&biw=1348&bih=930
09:23 < PigBot> Title: birkin - Google Search (at www.google.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9ouk9sn
09:23 <@dasunt> Ugh.
09:23 <@dasunt> Can't cut and paste.
09:24 <@dasunt> https://www.amazon.com/Great-Leveler-Inequality-Twenty-First-Princeton/dp/0691165025
09:24 < PigBot> dasunt: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
09:24 <@shapr> hm, interesting
09:24 <@shapr> dasunt: do you think that's why the US economy grew up until the 80s?
09:24 < aestetix> hmmm
09:24 <@dasunt> Victoria Beckman has over 100 birkin bags?
09:25 < aestetix> customers also bought a book called "After Pikkety"
09:25 <@shapr> birkin stocks?
09:25 < aestetix> that makes me interested
09:25 < aestetix> Maybe it's because I'm in Berlin, but I keep hearing people say that communism will solve capitalism's problems
09:25 <@shapr> uhhh, really?
09:25 < aestetix> Most of the people I hear this from were not alive when the Berlin Wall was up
09:26 < aestetix> Or they moved here from a capitalist country like the US or the UK
09:26 < aestetix> (in as much as the US is still capitalist)
09:26 <@dasunt> Huh.
09:26 < aestetix> Yeah Berlin has a huge generation gap between those who remember the wall and those who don't
09:26 <@dasunt> I like the market socialism of Scandanavia for lowering the gini coefficient.
09:26 <@shapr> I remember the wall
09:27 <@shapr> I did enjoy living in Sweden
09:27 < aestetix> dasunt: thanks for the book
09:27 <@shapr> Sweden is a great place to be poor
09:27 <@shapr> the US is a great place to be rich
09:27 < aestetix> well scandinavia has the amazing phenomenon of using socialism to totally disprove the people who say gender is a social construct :)
09:28 <@shapr> hm, I'd argue that Swedish society strongly supports the idea that gender is a social construct
09:28 < aestetix> IE they removed all the social barriers between men and women, and it turns out the differences between the sexes maximized
09:28 <@shapr> Swedes have serious body issues
09:28 < aestetix> I mean more occupationally
09:29 <@shapr> women do make about the same money in Sweden, for the most part
09:29 <@shapr> From what I saw, business owners were more commonly male
09:29 <@shapr> but department heads and that kind of leader had far more women
09:30 < aestetix> Right, and highly technical fields like engineering are full of men
09:30 < aestetix> Whereas fields that involve things like care are full of women
09:30 < aestetix> IE in medicine, most surgeons are men, most nurses are women
09:31 < aestetix> https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/6alnwq/maximized_gender_differences_in_scandinavia/
09:31 < PigBot> Title: Maximized gender differences in Scandinavia : JordanPeterson (at www.reddit.com) http://tinyurl.com/ybbnjkrx
09:31 < aestetix> I admit I've only scanned the studies
09:31 <@shapr> I saw far more females in tech in Sweden than in the US
09:32 < aestetix> Right, but "in tech" can mean a lot of things
09:32 < aestetix> Also, I'm referring to averages
09:32 <@shapr> yeah, I don't know the averages
09:32 < aestetix> I mean I know several women who are brilliant programmers
09:32 < aestetix> One of whom I actually go to for help quite a bit
09:32 <@shapr> but how many programmers do you know total?
09:33 <@shapr> My employer has about 75 coders, one is female.
09:33 < aestetix> yeah
09:33 <@shapr> We do have two UI/UX females
09:33 <@shapr> thing is, that started in the 80s
09:33 < aestetix> I'm actually unconvinced of that argument
09:33 < aestetix> The one with the ads and so on, right?
09:33 < aestetix> The counter-argument to that is that the role of computers fundamentally changed in the 80s
09:33 <@dasunt> "As a result of the strong demand, the Birkin bag has a high resale value in many countries, especially in Asia,[18] and to such an extent that the bag is considered by some people as an instrument of investment.[19][20] One 2016 study found that Birkin bags had average annual returns of 14.2% between 1980 and 2015, significantly beating the S&P 500 Index"
09:33 <@shapr> I got a degree recently and met a brilliant coder female, she switched to something feminine because she didn't want to threaten her jock boyfriend with her smarts
09:34 < aestetix> I mean don't get me wrong. Sexism exists and it's horrible.
09:34 < aestetix> But it's not the *only* factor.
09:35 <@dasunt> It may be the main factor though.
09:35 < aestetix> dasunt: well given the whole brogrammer paradigm....
09:36 < aestetix> There's definitely a Wolf of Wall Street thing going on in the bay area
09:37 <@shapr> The difference seems to be primarily cultural
09:37 < aestetix> shapr: see that's where I'm unconvinced.
09:37 <@shapr> The female pentesters/coders I know are almost entirely not from the US
09:37 < aestetix> Because that argument relies on a blank slate theory which I don't think fully works
09:37 <@shapr> South Korea, Russia, India, China, Taiwan
09:38 <@shapr> what's the blank slate theory?
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09:38 < aestetix> shapr: it's the idea that all gender differences are socially constructed, none of it is determined by biology
09:38 <@shapr> howdy klixa-cloud, long time no see
09:39 <@shapr> I think there are differences that are determined by biology, but I also believe they are primarily physical
09:39 <@klixa-cloud> Hey
09:39 <@shapr> I mean, biology, right?
09:39 < aestetix> hi klixa-cloud
09:39 < aestetix> klixa-cloud: when are you coming to germany
09:39 <@klixa-cloud> Never
09:39 < aestetix> aww
09:39 <@klixa-cloud> shapr: you haven’t been here in awhile
09:40 <@shapr> yeah, it's been a few years
09:40 <@shapr> How's life treating you?
09:40 <@klixa-cloud> I’m rarely on irc myself cause my soon to be 4 year old is autistic and my 2 year old is insane
09:40 <@shapr> that sounds challenging
09:40 < aestetix> shapr: and the logical conclusion of that is there is some evil presence in society that is pushing women away from being programmers, and the conclusion is that society needs to be "changed"
09:40 < aestetix> at least that's the argument I have heard
09:40 <@klixa-cloud> Life is well; I just saw benthemeek in person the other day and he gave me 4 laptops
09:41 < aestetix> especially by the marxists who hold that 50/50 representation in everything is the gold standard
09:41 <@Evilpig> klixa-cloud: where did you run into ben at?  I thought you were still out west
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09:41 <@klixa-cloud> Programming is boring to most women including myself
09:41 <@shapr> aestetix: I'd say habit is hard to change
09:41 < aestetix> klixa-cloud: exactly
09:41 <@shapr> My girlfriend find programming difficult, but fascinating
09:41 < K`Tetch_> why just to women?
09:41 < aestetix> shapr: I'd say that there are other elements at play, including free will
09:42 <@klixa-cloud> Evilpig: my brother is dying in Nashville; I visited him then drive to the boro
09:42 < K`Tetch_> i find it incredibly boring
09:42 <@shapr> yeah, I think programming temperament is not biology related.
09:42 <@shapr> I know plenty of brilliant people of whatever biology that do not enjoy coding.
09:42 < aestetix> shapr: but do you see the argument I'm forwarding?
09:43 < dfused> programming fucking sux
09:43 <@shapr> One of the most brilliant coders I met was a female machinist, I taught her Python in 45 minutes and she outstripped everybody
09:43 <@Corydon76> Programming is just problem solving
09:43 <@shapr> she was writing full useful programs after about an hour, with the help of my brain as library reference
09:43 < aestetix> And I already prefaced this by saying it's a discussion of averages
09:43 <@shapr> But she decided she wanted to have kids and be a mother, so she did.
09:44 <@shapr> aestetix: I see it, I just don't believe it.
09:44 <@klixa-cloud> And I’m not out west anymore; it was on fire... I spent the last week in franklin tn and now going to New Hampshire
09:44 <@shapr> and I've not seen anecdotal support for it either
09:44 < aestetix> shapr: I meant the 50/50 argument the marxists push
09:44 <@shapr> huh?
09:44 <@shapr> If you mean the evil presence argument, I disagree with that also
09:44 < aestetix> oh ok
09:45 <@shapr> I think it's more that habits are hard to change
09:45 < aestetix> Like I have gotten that exact point argued
09:45 <@shapr> people live in their comfort zones
09:45 < aestetix> see I'm a big fan of letting everyone choose
09:45 <@shapr> learning is hard, changing is hard, doing something new is scary
09:45 < aestetix> Not putting in barriers for someone who *wants* to do something
09:45 < aestetix> but it turns out that something like programming is definitely not for everyone
09:45 <@shapr> yeah, but it's like the "couple privilege" that polyamorous people mention...
09:46 < aestetix> what is that
09:46 <@shapr> society knows how to deal with a male/female pair, that's familiar and has well known conventions.
09:46 < aestetix> oh christ
09:46 <@shapr> And for now, that's also true of male programmers.
09:46 <@shapr> If you don't fit into the shape that people expect, everything is more difficult
09:46 <@klixa-cloud> I was always interested in programming until I tried it; and I was typing out BASIC on a to
09:46 <@shapr> oh man, BASIC is not a good way to start
09:46 <@klixa-cloud> Ti/99 when I was 4
09:46 <@shapr> Haskell or Python are much better options.
09:46 < aestetix> shapr: yeah, and if you try to please everyone, you wind up breaking society
09:47 <@klixa-cloud> shapr: I was 4
09:47 <@klixa-cloud> I thought it was a typewriter tho and I just wanted to see the robot
09:47 < aestetix> btw, it's not just that society doesn't know how to deal with male/female pairs
09:47 < aestetix> it's also that if you add another person or two, things get exponentially more complex
09:47 <@klixa-cloud> But I’m intelligent and had early access and encouragement to tech and still hate coding
09:47 <@shapr> aestetix: sure, I've been there and tried that.
09:48 <@shapr> aestetix: but I'm saying valentine's dinner is always set for two, that kind of thing
09:48 < aestetix> like imagine you have a triad that is legally married with children, and then one of them wants a divorce
09:48 <@shapr> and even ten years ago, computer science was more female-accustomed
09:48 < aestetix> shapr: well tech in general has gotten really hitty
09:48 < aestetix> shitty*
09:48 < aestetix> like I said, brogrammers
09:48 <@shapr> I started college in 1989, but I finished my bachelor's in 2013
09:48 <@shapr> yeah, agreed
09:49 <@shapr> and I do believe the problem is in the pipeline somewhere
09:49 <@shapr> because my employer rarely gets female applicants
09:50 < aestetix> Was the tech situation different before companies started requiring degrees?
09:50 < aestetix> I don't recall it being that different, except no brogrammer
09:50 < aestetix> brogrammers
09:51 < aestetix> if you can't tell I *really* hate them :p
09:51 <@dasunt> I mean, obviously, women dominate the programming field because programming is a lot like gathering, and women, being traditionally gatherers, must be able to keep track of a large amount of information associated with specific locations, which translates well to programming.
09:52 <@dasunt> While men, being hunters, avoid the programming field because their minds are more suited to "burst" work that mimics laying in wait, maybe for hours, before ambushing a mastadon.  The meticulous detail of programming doesn't fit human evolution patterns.
09:53 <@dasunt> Or, if you aren't getting the point, saying "woah, biology explains the gender differences" is bullshit, since you can basically make up any explanation for why one gender dominates a specific field.
09:53 < aestetix> dasunt: clearly it is due to a mass conspiracy
09:54 <@dasunt> Doesn't need a conspiracy for a bias.
09:55 < aestetix> dasunt: how do you explain the differences in the psychometric big 5?
09:56 < aestetix> http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-tests/personality-tests-big-5-aspects.htm
09:56 < PigBot> Title: The Big 5 Aspects of Personality (at www.psychometric-success.com) http://tinyurl.com/o444rh
09:56 < aestetix> there are well documented gender differences there
09:56 <@dasunt> Sure there are.
09:57 <@dasunt> There's also a well documented gender difference in the amount of men who become nurses and the amount of women who become nurses.  A bias that's flipped for doctors, although both are medical professionals.
09:57 < aestetix> that seems to be the case, yes
09:58 < aestetix> oh wait I misread what you were saying
09:58 < aestetix> sorry. I'm tired
09:58 <@dasunt> LOL.
09:59 < aestetix> thankfully you aren't going to subtweet me and make all kinds of awful accusations now :p
09:59 < dfused> you dont know that
09:59 <@dasunt> What I find interesting is that if you take actors of different genders, and ask them to act the same way to a third party, the interpretation of their actions are different.
10:00  * dasunt creates r/aestetixinaction
10:00 < aestetix> lol
10:00 <@dasunt> Tweeting is so 2014.
10:01 < aestetix> dasunt: like the guy who sees his SO is doing lots of housework and suggests hiring a maid to help her, and the response is "what, my work is sloppy so you want to get a maid instead?"
10:01 <@shapr> dasunt: my two best friends in college in the 90s were male nurses, and they were treated like shit and told they should change professions.
10:02 <@dasunt> LOL, my wife would be like "hell yes!"
10:02 < aestetix> dasunt: exactly
10:02 <@dasunt> Heck, I consider hiring a maid now and again because I seem to suck at cleaning.
10:02 <@shapr> me too
10:02 <@klixa-cloud> I’d love a maid cause sweeping the floor 20 times a day sux
10:02 <@shapr> I swept my floor once
10:02 <@dasunt> Sure, I can mop floors, do dishes, wash clothes, and change the bed.
10:03 <@shapr> once in two years is good, right?
10:03 <@klixa-cloud> shapr: if you don’t have kids yes
10:03 <@dasunt> But six months goes by, and all of a sudden I'm looking at the window and wondering why it's covered in a thick layer of dust.
10:03 <@klixa-cloud> I remember when I never had to sweep...
10:04 < aestetix> or like when a colleage gets a haircut, none of the men notice, all the women notice and compliment it
10:04 <@dasunt> This whole cleaning shit has rules I don't understand.
10:05 <@dasunt> Like, are you supposed to clean out the cobwebs in your basement?  Because parts of my basement are getting scary.  Yet I never have heard of anyone doing this.
10:05 <@klixa-cloud> Rules lol
10:05 < aestetix> the problem with cleaning is that nothing is in its place anymore
10:05 < aestetix> like "that book was halfway down the pile of books next to the chair"
10:05 <@Dolemite> Dog = never need to sweep up food fallen on the floor, again
10:06 <@shapr> aestetix: I notice hair cuts and style changes
10:06 < aestetix> shapr: oh ok I never do
10:06 <@klixa-cloud> Shop vac
10:06 <@shapr> I like designing outfits
10:06 <@shapr> and knitting
10:06 <@shapr> and putting electronics on my knitting
10:06 <@shapr> I organize a knitting circle
10:06 <@dasunt> Cat = you will have tumbleweeds of shed cat hair.
10:07 <@shapr> aestetix: I guess the best test is to start applying to jobs as a female
10:07 <@shapr> then you have more data
10:08 < aestetix> this involves effort :p
10:09 <@shapr> well there's your problem :-P
10:09 < aestetix> although now that I think about it, do any of the big tech companies put out stats on applications?
10:10 < aestetix> since I imagine by default they'd have a large sample size
10:11 <@klixa-cloud> Dolemite: you’ve just sold me on a dog; my children get more good on the floor than in their mouths
10:11 <@klixa-cloud> Food*
10:15 <@Dolemite> yep, even at 11 and 8, my kids still drop enough to make the dog fat
10:16 <@shapr> http://ncase.me/fireflies/
10:16 < PigBot> Title: Fireflies (at ncase.me) http://tinyurl.com/y9nz9ulh
10:16 <@shapr> I'm porting that to a pile of adafruit circuit playground express boards
10:22 < dfused> my roomba is a fucking jerk
10:26 <@dasunt> Why's that?
10:27 <@opticron> related: I somehow managed to get a roomba demo unit
10:28 <@opticron> can't update the firmware
10:28 <@shapr> huh?
10:28 < dfused> never can find its way back home... never goes into th ekitchen unless I'm in there trying to cook, then its constantly trying to run over my feet.... will find anything it can to get cuaght up so it doesnt have to finish task
10:28 <@shapr> why doesn't the demo unit allow updates?
10:28 <@shapr> dfused: oh, it's lazy
10:28 <@opticron> because it's ancient firmware and was never designed to receive updates properly
10:29 <@opticron> so they flashed it once manually for demo units and never expected to see them again
10:29 <@shapr> oh man :-(
10:29 <@opticron> but apparently these demo units occasionally get sold
10:29 <@shapr> jtag pins?
10:29 <@opticron> I don't have the firmware to write to it
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10:30 <@shapr> can't find a CD image or something online?
10:30 <@opticron> and it works well enough as is
10:30 <@shapr> huh
10:30 <@shapr> well
10:30 <@opticron> the firmware was never distributed other than via their firmware update service
10:31 <@shapr> silos are bad
10:37 < dc0de[m]> I thought that all of the roomba firmware was provided to the maker bot community?
10:37 < dc0de[m]> didn't roomba sell a dev kit robot?
10:38 < skiboy> yes they did
10:38 < skiboy> the iRobot Create
10:38 < dc0de[m]> would that work for the "demo" unit?
10:39 < dc0de[m]> that's what I would try....
10:39 < skiboy> Is the Roomba just programmed over UART?
10:39 < dc0de[m]> cuz if mine ever came at me in the kitchen, it'd look like a waffle maker when I was done shooting it.
10:40 < skiboy> I think you may be having flashbacks to "Small Soldiers"
10:40 < dc0de[m]> “If pigs could vote, the man with the slop bucket would be elected swineherd every time, no matter how much slaughtering he did on the side.” - Orson Scott Card
10:41 < dc0de[m]> skiboy: no, I got rid of my roomba's, and bought a dyson.
10:41 < skiboy> y tho
10:41 < dc0de[m]> cleans way better, and is built far stronger than the roomba.
10:41 < dc0de[m]> and you have to drive it...
10:42 < skiboy> Samsung makes better vacuuming robots now
10:43 < skiboy> There was a bug with our old roomba one time that made it randomly speak French
10:47 < k3ymkr> So you sit there with an RV vacuum and drive it around the living room?
10:48 <@dasunt> So is a Roomba worth it?
10:49 <@Evilpig> no
10:50 <@dasunt> My cat does appear to produce his weight in cat hair in about a month, so bear that in mind.
10:53 <@opticron> the upstairs roomba runs every day and does a damn good job of keeping the hair from 2 cats to a minimum
10:54 <@opticron> the downstairs one is the derpy one (it's a fancy model that can handle multiple rooms/entire floor of a house)
10:57 <@dasunt> Hmmmm.
10:58 <@dasunt> I don't really have much to vacuum - about 400 sq ft.  Does one Roomba do that much?
10:58 <@opticron> one room?
10:59 <@opticron> roombas are usually pretty limited by the number of rooms they can cover
10:59 <@opticron> basic ones are single-room
10:59 <@dasunt> Three rooms, roughly.
10:59 <@opticron> slightly fancier ones add lighthouses that let the roomba handle multiple rooms (up to 3?)
10:59 <@opticron> fanciest ones do internal mapping
11:00 <@opticron> and can handle the entire level without additional hardware
11:01 <@dasunt> This sounds complicated.
11:07 < dfused> you'll damn sure realize how much shit you have on teh floor.... cuase for the first couple times, you spend more time finding it and picking shit up off the floor that it gets caught up on
11:09 <@opticron> yep
11:09 <@opticron> forces the floor to stay uncluttered which is nice
11:23 <@rattle> I love my Roomba.  Works great for me.  We named it Paul.
11:30 <@Dolemite> rattle: I don't know John Terrill, so I guess I'll refrain, but his comment on Tom's FB post about bats saving tequila...   I want to ask him, "What's wrong with being Jewish?"
11:32 <@rattle> Ok, that took me a sec to figure out.  He got rabbis.  Heh.
11:32 <@rattle> Go for it.  I think John is actually Jewish.
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11:44 <@rattle> What the fuckidy fuck..  http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017/10/exclusive-us-preparing-put-nuclear-bombers-back-24-hour-alert/141957/
11:44 < PigBot> rattle: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
11:45 < aestetix> so about that Fourth Turning
11:54 <@rattle> That's not sending a "we can nuke several cities quickly" signal, because our subs are the option for speed.  That's a "we are prepared to widespread fuck shit up" signal, which hasn't been necessary since the cold war..
11:54 < aestetix> holy fuck
11:54 < aestetix> http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/20/san-jose-san-francisco-oakland-job-losses-hammer-bay-area-employers-slash-thousands-of-jobs/
11:54 < PigBot> Title: Bay Area hammered by monthly loss of 4,700 jobs (at www.mercurynews.com) http://tinyurl.com/yamgqp75
11:54 < aestetix> maybe the bust is finally happening
12:00 <@rattle> Something is coming, and soon..  We are overdue for a market correction.  Just not clear which sector is going to take the first dive.
12:01 < aestetix> Did Yellen raise the interest rates yet?
12:01 <@rattle> A few years ago I predicted retail which would shimmy into commercial real estate..  Still think that's possible.
12:04 < aestetix> and answer is yes
12:04 <@rattle> Yeah, I think so..  Back when rational though wanted the GDP to grow in the 2-3% range, rather than Trump's goal of 4%.
12:04 < aestetix> looks like it's at 1.25% now
12:04 < aestetix> raised four times since december 2015
12:05 < aestetix> of course that's still basically nothing
12:05 <@rattle> Yes, but small changes there make a big difference.
12:16 <@dasunt> Trump's goal doesn't mean anything.  If another politician promised 4%, he'd say 5% or 6%.
12:18 <@dasunt> I don't think he can deliver a drastically improved rate of growth, tbh, since the GOP seems stuck on supply side economics, and I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that the US's economy's slowdown is a supply side issue.
12:21 <@dasunt> But anyways...
12:23 < dfused> meanwhile.... back at the ranch
12:29  * dc0de[m] hears eerie noises....
12:30 <@Mirage> Having fun with some jackass on Ebay that listed Z parts as being "Tan/Brown" when they were actually Grey...and is trying to convince me, after sending pictures of the ones sent next to the ones in the car that they send me "Dark Brown" ones.
12:31 <@Mirage> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZvcAAOSwYwJZ7h4l/s-l1600.jpg
12:31 <@Mirage> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/UqQAAOSw63FZ7h44/s-l1600.jpg
12:32 <@dasunt> U'm, that's gray.
12:32 <@Mirage> Yeah, no shit
12:32 <@dasunt> Also, is your vehicle from the 80s?
12:33 <@Mirage> This is the '85 300zx I just got to replace the '86 my wife totaled almost 2 weeks ago.
12:33 <@dasunt> Huh, I always liked the Datsun z-cars.
12:33 <@Mirage> Trying to get everything replaced and good on it that I can.
12:34 <@Mirage> I liked the 240z/260z, wasn't really a fan of the 280zx
12:34 <@Mirage> And i hate the 2+2 in any of them.
12:35 <@dasunt> Huh, looking up Datsun to see what they are going for locally, and I find:  https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/d/datsun-b210-station-wagon-1982/6352231725.html
12:35 < PigBot> Title: Datsun B210 Station Wagon 1982 - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle automotive sale (at minneapolis.craigslist.org) http://tinyurl.com/ya278urr
12:36 <@dasunt> LOL, he's dropped the price from $5500 to $4600 through about four posts that I've seen so far.
12:36 <@Mirage> Here's what you need.. https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/d/300zx/6351442574.html
12:36 < PigBot> Title: 300ZX - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle automotive sale (at dallas.craigslist.org) http://tinyurl.com/y9o92lfv
12:37 <@dasunt> I stand corrected - $6.5k to $4.6k.
12:37 <@dasunt> I'
12:37 <@dasunt> I'd take:  https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/cto/d/1978-datsun-280z/6323011767.html
12:37 < PigBot> Title: 1978 Datsun 280z - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle automotive sale (at minneapolis.craigslist.org) http://tinyurl.com/y9cm7gzr
12:38 <@dasunt> That ZX you posted is sexy though.
12:40 <@Mirage> The wiring and vacuum lines under the hood on that 280zx are kinda scary
12:45 <@shapr> spectrum?
12:59 <@dasunt> Speaking of old things, I'm liking my '79 moped.
12:59 <@dasunt> Really liking it.
12:59 <@dasunt> It's just so simple and cheap that it's relaxing.
13:00 <@dasunt> No gas tank gauge, since that's more expensive than just having a petcock with a "reserve" position.
13:00 <@dasunt> No electric state, because that adds costs.
13:00 <@dasunt> No turn signals because, hey, you have arms to signal with.
13:00 < dfused> what does a pet chicken have to do with anything
13:00 <@shapr> I like writing code for arduinos for similar reasons.
13:01 <@dasunt> I could replace the piston rings on this in probably less than an hour, while driving a beer and taking a smoke break.
13:01 <@dasunt> shapr: I need to start doing that, btw.  Soon.
13:02 <@dasunt> shapr: Just seems so fun.
13:02 <@dasunt> dfused: Poultry technology is an essential component of most mopeds.  /The more you know.
13:03 < dfused> ohhhhhh is that where the phrase playing chicken comes from
13:03 <@dasunt> It all makes sense now, doesn't it?
13:03 < dfused> yeah... I feel smarterer already
13:04  * dasunt goes through the tickets and starts feeling dumber.
13:04 <@shapr> dasunt: lately I've been having a blast with adafru.it/3333
13:05 <@shapr> coolest arduino yet
13:12 <@dasunt> Nifty.
13:12 <@dasunt> What are you doing with it?
13:12 <@shapr> I'm making a phreaknic badge
13:12 <@shapr> are you coming to phreaknic?
13:13 <@dasunt> Unfortunately, no.  :(
13:13 <@shapr> I finally figured out how to get two badges to both send and recv yesterday
13:13 <@shapr> my company does lightning talks every thursday from 4 - 5pm
13:14 <@shapr> so I figure I need to do fireflies
13:14 <@shapr> specifically: http://ncase.me/fireflies/
13:14 < PigBot> Title: Fireflies (at ncase.me) http://tinyurl.com/y9nz9ulh
13:15 <@shapr> dasunt: code is here: https://github.com/makerslocal/pn21-badge/pulls
13:15 < PigBot> Title: Pull Requests · makerslocal/pn21-badge · GitHub (at github.com) http://tinyurl.com/y7hsug85
13:16 <@dasunt> BRB, finding weaknesses in order to figure out how to make a worm to install a cryptocurrency minor on everyone's badge.  ;)
13:16 <@shapr> ooh, I like it!
13:16 <@dasunt> Saw a comment about that today.  If you are selling an IoT device, as a manufacturer, it probably has more processing power than you need, right?
13:17 <@dasunt> The electricity is also free (at least to the manufacturer), and it has an internet connection.
13:17 <@dasunt> How soon until IoT device manufacturers start setting up their own miners?
13:18 <@shapr> well, there's a non-hidden idea there already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_furnace
13:18 < PigBot> Title: Data furnace - Wikipedia (at en.wikipedia.org) http://tinyurl.com/y75a7ulv
13:18 <@dasunt> AFK for 1 hr, sorry.  Meeting.  Ugh.
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14:31 <@dasunt> That's pretty cool:  https://medium.com/@rowborg/using-my-nest-thermostat-as-a-combination-lock-d536e615cbbf
14:31 < PigBot> Title: Using my Nest Thermostat as a Combination Lock – Jacob Rosenberg – Medium (at medium.com) http://tinyurl.com/ycnv3oyh
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16:02 <@dasunt> Huh, supposedly this was a r/the_donald contributor:  https://www.goskagit.com/news/official-charges-delayed-for-bow-man-accused-of-killing-father/article_91e2f8d3-9f8a-5f2a-a200-605cc2133941.html
16:02 < PigBot> Title: Official charges delayed for Bow man accused of killing father - UPDATED | News | goskagit.com (at www.goskagit.com) http://tinyurl.com/y7p3nswp
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