--- Log opened Thu Jul 20 00:00:45 2017
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06:40 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
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08:14  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
08:14 < aestetix> https://www.hetzner-status.de/en.html
08:14 < PigBot> Title: Hetzner Online GmbH - Status-Webseite (at www.hetzner-status.de) http://tinyurl.com/hk2v37t
08:14 < aestetix> sucks to be hetzner
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08:55 <@Shadow404> where is ware? i need someone to throw a chair off an office building roof.
08:55 <@Shadow404> and need a scapegoat
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09:53 <@dasunt> Okay, I should not read the comments on cryptocurrency articles.
09:54 <@Corydon76> s/on cryptocurrency articles//
09:54 <@dasunt> Hey now, there's a few comment threads worth reading.
09:56 <@dasunt> I can't think of any off the top of my head, but...
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10:07 <@oddball> dasunt: "Okay, I should not read the comments."  There, fixed that for you.
10:13 < TheDukh> ^  That's the best thing all around
10:15 <@Corydon76> dasunt: I'm curious about your comments on this: http://www.acsh.org/news/2017/07/18/did-oregon-legislature-just-unite-divided-nation-11573
10:15 < PigBot> Title: Did The Oregon Legislature Just Unite a Divided Nation? | American Council on Science and Health (at www.acsh.org) http://tinyurl.com/yc2qcahg
10:24 <@oddball> A tax on the sales of bicycles for the express purpose of funding bike paths seems more rational than taxes on beer and tobacco for the purpose of disuading people from buying beer and tobacco.
10:27 <@rhia> solution: instead of the hiked sales tax, make any bikes on the road pay the 15 bucks for little itty bitty bicycle license plates - and make the state handle it instead of the bike retailers
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11:01 <@dasunt> Corydon76: It's just appealing to the masses.
11:01 <@dasunt> Corydon76: I'd say the real problem is that taxes on automobiles is not enough to cover infrastructure, but it's easier to use property taxes to pay for streets than increase the gas tax.
11:02 <@Corydon76> Increasing the gas tax only hits vehicles which use gasoline.  Some astute environmentalists switched their diesels to run on used vegetable oil -- and avoided the tax used to maintain the roads.
11:03 <@Corydon76> Same for bicyclists
11:03 <@dasunt> I strongly suspect that if you consider how much a cyclist pays in taxes that ends up funding streets, and what an autombile driver pays, the bicyclist is already subsidizing the automobile driver.
11:03 < K`Tetch_> used veggie oil is expensive in itself, and not exactly plentiful
11:04 <@Corydon76> Used veggie oil can be had for cheap.  Many fast food places routinely just throw it out, as it's considered garbage.
11:04 < K`Tetch_> (its been a common trick in the UK for decades, but people there could at least tap into the supply from Chip shops
11:04 <@dasunt> Corydon76: I have a proposal for a fairer tax for vehicles - just tax tires.  That should correlate better with distance traveled.  Of course, to discourage people from driving on bald tires to save a few bucks, you'd almost have to engineer some sort of visible tread depth warning that could be easily seen.
11:05 <@Corydon76> The real trick is in coming up with a system to filter the used veggie oil, so the organics suspended in the oil don't clog a diesel engine
11:06 < K`Tetch_> dasunt - just do like hte uk, tyres below min legal tread depth = 3 points on the license and a £1000 fine
11:06 < K`Tetch_> that's per tyre
11:06 <@Corydon76> rhia: the problem with license plates is that those who drive a little pay the same tax as those who drive a lot.
11:06 <@dasunt> I'm not sure if it's technically possible (I suspect it is), but if you could make a yellow layer in vehicle tires that would only be exposed when tread depth is marginal, and an orange layer under than which is exposed when tread depth is at dangerous levels, then you'd probably be able to easily nail people for driving on bald tires.
11:07 < K`Tetch_> i had a tyre go out on my 2 weeks ago, went from 'fine tread' to 'through the metal' in 50 miles
11:08 < K`Tetch_> (suspension part had broken in the back)
11:08 <@Corydon76> The only other way (other than a gas tax) to proportion the taxes out fairly would be to install toll booths
11:09 < K`Tetch_> or auto tagging, like peachpass
11:09 <@Corydon76> And that works much better today, with the addition of electonic passes
11:09 < K`Tetch_> I still just say raise taxes. will also push towards more efficient vehicles
11:10 < K`Tetch_> gas taxes that is
11:10 <@rhia> Corydon76, irc lacks the "facetious" font
11:10 <@Corydon76> rhia: heh
11:10 < K`Tetch_> gas here in GA is cheaper than it was in the uk 20 years ago
11:10 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch_: it doesn't address users of the road surface who don't use gas, though
11:10 < K`Tetch_> (I paid 63.pp/litre for what would be classed as premium, back in 97
11:11 < K`Tetch_> such as who?
11:11 <@Corydon76> Bicyclists, which were the topic of the original story
11:11 < K`Tetch_> bikes?
11:11 < K`Tetch_> bikes do almost zero wear to the road
11:11 < K`Tetch_> road wear/impact is a function of the square of the weight of the vehicle
11:12 < K`Tetch_> a 40t semi does more htan 20x the wear of a 2ton suv
11:12 <@Corydon76> I think cars also do almost zero wear to the road, as well.  The primary mode of wear and tear on roads comes from Mother Nature
11:12 <@Corydon76> Water getting in places and freezing, UV rays degrading the materials, etc.
11:13 <@Corydon76> The idea of the gas tax is to extract from those who get the most use out of the road
11:13 < K`Tetch_> freeze-thaw weathering, sure. UV weathering is less an issue than it was
11:14 < K`Tetch_> I have an 'acquainteance' (wouldn't say a friend, because we detest each other) who worked on the UV weathering specs as part of an EU group
11:14 <@Corydon76> Oh, and the salt we add to the roads in the winter probably does more to degrade the road than anything Mother Nature throws at it
11:14 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Well, the damage done to the road is the fourth power of weight of the vehicle.
11:16 <@oddball> Corydon76: You are correct, passenger vehicles do negligable damage to the roads.  The big semis... that's a different story.
11:16 <@dasunt> But really, the major road problem we have is traffic.  Which is amplified because we subsidize driving, both directly and indirectly.
11:16 <@oddball> Of course, our nation's infrastructure is deeply tied to semis.
11:17 < K`Tetch_> build more RAIL!
11:17 <@oddball> subsidized driving?
11:17 <@dasunt> oddball: Yes.
11:17 <@oddball> Ok.  You've lost me.  How is it subsidized?
11:17 <@Corydon76> The thing I prefer about the gas tax is that I, who works at home, pay much less to maintain the roads than someone who drives to work every day
11:17 <@dasunt> Lets say I drive to the grocery store 2 miles away.  I'm on city streets which are paid for by the city.  Major source of city revenue - property taxes.
11:18 <@dasunt> So (a) I'm not paying the full cost of the roads I'm using.  That's a subsidy.
11:18 <@oddball> ok
11:18 <@dasunt> (b) I arrive at the store, which has (surprise) a mandated amount of parking spaces it must have.  Who pays for that parking?  Indirectly, all customers.  Again, another subsidy.
11:19 <@dasunt> (c) I come home, and park my car on the street.  Do I pay for the parking?  Nope.  I'm using public land for storing my private vehicle.  Related to (a), but that's another subsidy.
11:22 <@dasunt> Really, if people had to pay the full cost of their transportation choices, we'd probably solve a good chunk of our traffic problem.
11:59 <@dasunt> Is Elon Musk surrounded by too many yes men?
11:59 <@dasunt> I'm just seeing his tweet about the hyperloop plans.
12:02 <@Dolemite> He seems to be surrounded by yes men that can actually follow through
12:03 <@dasunt> Sooner or later, that will fail though, right?
12:03 <@Corydon76> dasunt: have you seen Musk's plans to put 1,000+ satellites into space?
12:04 <@dasunt> Because he's tweeting right now to dig a tunnel from NYC to DC.
12:04 < K`Tetch_> baltimore
12:04 <@Dolemite> dasunt: One would think so
12:04 < K`Tetch_> (wait, is baltimore north or south of dc?)
12:04 <@dasunt> Corydon76: That's not too unreasonable.
12:04 <@Corydon76> He's planning on blanketing the planet with high speed Internet access.
12:04 <@dasunt> K`Tetch_: North.
12:04 <@Dolemite> It's East
12:04 <@Dolemite> well, Northeast
12:04 <@dasunt> It's NYC->Philly->Balt->DC.
12:05 <@Dolemite> It's basically the same path as AMTRAK
12:05 < K`Tetch_> for some reason i thought it was south
12:05 <@Corydon76> dasunt: considering how much money it takes to launch one satellite into space, the costs of his multi-state tunnel look pretty reasonable
12:05 <@dasunt> So far though, doesn't Musk just have one used boring machine?
12:05 < K`Tetch_> we don't need hyperloop though, we need HSR
12:06 <@Corydon76> dasunt: he does, but remember that this is someone else's boring machine.  He's planning on creating his own design
12:06 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Depends on the size of the sat, and what orbites.  The cub sats were pretty reasonable to launch into orbit.
12:06 < K`Tetch_> yeah, cube sats are cheap (got a friend in scotland/russia that does that)
12:06 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch_: HSR only works if you have the real estate on the ground to execute
12:07 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Sure Musk may create one hell of a fast boring machine, but at this point, AFAIK, both cheaper tunnels and hyperloop exist almost entirely on paper.
12:07 <@Corydon76> I rather suspect at some point, Musk will dig a tunnel for an oil pipeline, and when it leaks, it won't matter, because the leak will be encased in a subterranean tunnel
12:08 <@Corydon76> dasunt: and a few years ago. electric cars on a mass scale existed entirely on paper
12:09 <@Corydon76> And right now, the possibility of a self-driving car going from LA to NYC exists almost completely on paper
12:09 <@dasunt> Electric car is a drivetrain problem.
12:09 <@dasunt> One that was (mostly) limited by battery tech.
12:09 < K`Tetch_> Corydon76 - THAT is what emmenant domain exists for, not to get kickbacks from property developers wanting multimillion dollar mcmassion neighborhoods. But real, neccesary infrastructure rollout
12:09 <@Corydon76> Right, battery tech has always been the problem
12:10 <@dasunt> Hyperloop is new vehicle + new infrastructure.
12:10 < K`Tetch_> electric cars on a mass scale existing 120 years ago (seriously, back then, more cars were electric than IC engined)
12:10 <@dasunt> K`Tetch_: I was going to bring that up as well, but I didn't now what percentage of teh market they were.
12:11 <@Corydon76> I will continue to point out that Elon Musk has not yet said that he is definitely going to build a hyperloop from DC to NYC
12:11 <@dasunt> I believe locomotives have been switched over to electric for decades, but they use a generator, not battery tech.
12:11 <@Corydon76> The only thing he said today is that he passed a preliminary government oversight mark
12:12 <@dasunt> The first electric car was 1837?
12:12 <@Corydon76> dasunt: I believe locomotives are considered hybrids
12:12 <@Corydon76> Diesel-electric, specifically
12:13 <@dasunt> Pure electric drivetrain thoough, IIRC.
12:14 < K`Tetch_> as opposed to pure electrics, which work from 400-750VAC 3rd rail or 12k-250k catenary systems
12:15 < K`Tetch_> (guess who found himself looking at 3rd rail electric rtains on wikipedia last week)
12:16 < K`Tetch_> but we need a rail infrastructure system like the interstate system
12:16 <@dasunt> Anyways, my point is that we had most of tech needed, and in use, before mass producing electric vehicles.  All we were waiting on was the battery tech, which finally got a boost from increase use of portable electronic devices.
12:16 <@Corydon76> dasunt: some do, although there are also dual-mode locomotives that can do either
12:17 <@dasunt> For hyperloop infrastructure, I'm not sure what we can do.
12:17 < K`Tetch_> especially engineering ones, Corydon76, use external power where possible, diesel for when they're outside the network
12:17 < K`Tetch_> hyperloop, I'm just not sold on
12:17 <@dasunt> Is there some overlooped optimizations for boring machines?  I'm not sure.
12:17 <@Corydon76> Hyperloop specifically uses external vacuum systems to propel the pod
12:17 < K`Tetch_> not as proposed
12:18 < K`Tetch_> now, there was a proposal I remember seeing 15 years ago, basically the hyperloop, but - UNDER THE ATLANTIC
12:18 < K`Tetch_> thats a better use case
12:18 <@Corydon76> Watch:  https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring#t-1132365
12:18 < PigBot> Title: Elon Musk: The future were building -- and boring | TED Talk | TED.comMain menuTEDSearchCancel search (at www.ted.com) http://tinyurl.com/ybhngmjj
12:19 <@Corydon76> First part of the talk points out Musk's intended optimizations
12:21 <@Corydon76> Under the Atlantic is a non-starter.  It gets too close to magma.  Building a pipe along the bottom might be possible, though.
12:21 <@dasunt> There's always the Bering Strait - would that be doable?
12:21 < K`Tetch_> under the surface i should say, yes
12:21 < K`Tetch_> along the atlantic seabed
12:23 <@Corydon76> dasunt: so between Canada and Russia?
12:23 < K`Tetch_> i mean it's such an old concept, jules verne's son wrote a story about it
12:23 < K`Tetch_> alaska, Corydon76
12:24 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Well, assume Hyperloop does manage an average speed of 600 mph.  What's the distance from Chicago to Moscow if you're minimizing seafloor tunneling?
12:25 <@Corydon76> dasunt: unless relations with Moscow warms, I don't see that as a long term profitable venture
12:25 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch_: Are you talking about "Journey to the Center of the Earth"?
12:25 < K`Tetch_> I'm sure trump would be happy to promote a russian-led Moscow-DC high speed train
12:26 < K`Tetch_> no, his SON, Corydon76
12:26 < K`Tetch_> its called 'an express of the future'
12:27 <@Corydon76> Before today, I didn't even know he had a son
12:27 < K`Tetch_> oh his son was a hell-raiser. Jules even sent him to a penal colony for 6 months when he was 15
12:28 < K`Tetch_> http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0606611h.html (many attribute the story to jules, due to a publishing error)
12:28 < PigBot> Title: An Express of the Future (at gutenberg.net.au) http://tinyurl.com/y76a3qml
12:28 <@dasunt> Hmmmm, about 18 hours from Chicago to central Europe assuming great-circle arcs for most segments.
12:29 < K`Tetch_> "Yes, the starting-point of the `Boston to Liverpool Pneumatic Tubes Company.'" <-- see even he knew great cities (and boston)
12:29 <@dasunt> OTOH, Bering tunnel would be awesome for freight shipping, other than the massive political problem of going through Russia.
12:30 < K`Tetch_> bering straight is tretcherous for weather a lot of thetime
12:38 <@dasunt> That's why a tunnel would be good.
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13:14 <@Shadow404> heh, both of the channels i lurk in are talking about the hyperloop, heh
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13:53 < TheDukh> http://www.tmz.com/2017/07/20/linkin-park-singer-chester-bennington-dead-commits-suicide/
13:53 < PigBot> TheDukh: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
13:56 < TheDukh> Apparently he hung himself on Chris Cornell's bday...
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15:59 <@rattle> Oh my, getting divorced feels good.  Soooo good.
16:00 <@dasunt> Odd, my divorce made me proficient at drinking high-proof alcohol.  Straight from the bottle.
16:01 <@rattle> My marriage made me good at that.
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16:19 <@Corydon76> I offered my spouse the ability to file Chapter 7; he'd just have to divorce me, first.  He decided against it.
16:20 <@Corydon76> He's still trying to get student loans dismissed, which would cause the IRS to decide, "Hey, you just got a massive amount of additional income in terms of forgiven debt."
16:20 <@Corydon76> Oh, goodie!
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18:57 < dc0de[m]> rattle: welcome to the club
18:57 <@rattle> <thumbs up>
18:58 < dc0de[m]> Am I going to see you next week in Vegas?  I hope so.
18:58 < dc0de[m]> We need to catch up
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19:01 < dc0de[m]> /msg rattle I'm working bsidedlv Tues/wed, but free the rest of the time for shenanigans and parties and catching up, I don't leave crags until the Wednesday after
19:02 <@rattle> I'm not going to be out there this year, unfortunately.  Too many things conflicting.
19:04 <@rattle> My ankle is still sorta not 100% yet..  I know with all the walking I'd manage to severely fuck it up again.  That's was sorta through me over the line.  That and I got Tom Petty tickets for Wednesday.. :)
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19:15 < K`Tetch_> and if you are challenged to go to a petty concert, you won't back down, and you'll stand your ground
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 21 00:00:47 2017