--- Log opened Tue Jun 20 00:00:09 2017
00:44 -!- remoford [~remo_lapt@c-68-52-35-32.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
02:50 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hhajcdbtuadrlhqg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
05:25 -!- rhia [~rhia@2601:601:4000:da79:82ee:73ff:fe64:1308] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
05:29 -!- rhia [~rhia@2601:601:4000:da79:82ee:73ff:fe64:1308] has joined #se2600
05:29 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o rhia] by ChanServ
06:32 -!- Dolemite [~scott@96-38-109-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:44 -!- Dolemite [~scott@96-38-109-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600
06:44 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Dolemite] by ChanServ
06:46 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
07:13 -!- remoford [~remo_lapt@c-68-52-35-32.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
08:32 -!- TheDukh [~thedukh@2607:fcc8:ac80:d900:ed6d:3fc2:b9b1:30e3] has joined #se2600
08:40 -!- remoford [~remo_lapt@c-68-52-35-32.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:24 <@rattle> Interesting..  Just found out Verizon isn't taking new orders for ISDN-BRI service.  Wasn't that considered a mandatory tariff enforced service by the telecommunications act?
09:50 < _NSAKEY> rattle: It's entirely possible that things changed, or they just decided to stop giving a shit and see if the government would come after them now.
09:50 < _NSAKEY> I still don't get how they're getting away with going, "Nope, we're not replacing all those copper wires" after Sandy.
09:50 < _NSAKEY> Or did that get resolved?
09:52 <@rattle> Not to the best of my knowledge.  These days whenever an enterprise complains, they drop a sonet ring through your basement, and well, sure, I'm ok with that.
09:56 <@Corydon76_> It seems to be cheaper to get politicians opposed to regulations elected than to comply with the regulations
09:57 <@Corydon76_> Which will continue until voters make it more expensive to elect compliant politicians than simply to comply with regulations, i.e. never.
10:37 -!- xray [~xray@c-73-43-4-206.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
11:07 <@dasunt> Corydon76_: I call it the "life's too good" problem.  For all the complaining Americans do, our lives are pretty good (at least for the majority).  Therefore, we don't care.
11:08 <@Corydon76_> dasunt: I think it's actually the reverse.  Life is so poor that every waking hour is spent considering how to make the bills and no thought is given towards whether the selection of politicians might have to do with how bad life is.
11:10 <@Corydon76_> To wit, nobody in here is really struggling the way the majority of Americans struggle with paying their bills on time.
11:11 <@dasunt> Majority of Americans put themselves in such a sorry state.
11:12 <@dasunt> There's a difference.
11:12 <@Dagmar> They're told it's normal.
11:12 <@Corydon76_> No, they don't.  Majority of Americans think they're surviving just fine, right up until the point when they have an apartment fire (without insurance) or a car accident (with insufficient insurance), etc.
11:12 <@dasunt> Sure they do.
11:12 <@Corydon76_> People get behind through no fault of their own, and then they're perpetually trying to catch up
11:13 <@dasunt> Spending all you have (and more) doesn't mean your life is bad, it means that you have a spending issue.
11:13 <@Corydon76_> And then there's no question about whether it was that the condition for their demise was preordained by the conditions put in place by those who could have sacrificed a little and ensured that the working class could have had it a little easier
11:14 <@Corydon76_> It's true that America is a rich nation, which could ensure opportunity for all.  It just doesn't.
11:15 <@Corydon76_> It doesn't help that there are businesses preying upon the less fortunate, whose very purpose is to make people in a bad situation even worse.
11:15 <@dasunt> I'm saying that the power struggle faced by the poor and the power stuggle faced by the middle class tend to be different.
11:15 <@Corydon76_> I don't disagree, but with the point that the middle class is shrinking downward.
11:16 <@Corydon76_> That is, people are exiting the middle class downward into the working class.
11:16 <@dasunt> It is, but it will as long as the middle class tends to act in a way that reduces its power.
11:17 <@dasunt> Which, incidentally, goes into something I've been thinking about late stage capitalism, and how we're evolving systems that are very good at separating people from their money.
11:18 <@Corydon76_> Peaches' mother just passed away, and I've taken on the task of getting all of her accounts closed.  She was parallel to the working class, the disabled class.
11:18 <@Dagmar> "by those who could have sacrificed a little
11:18 <@Dagmar> "
11:18 <@Dagmar> Those people haven't sacrificed shit
11:19 <@Corydon76_> Dagmar: not in a long time, anyway
11:19 <@Dagmar> ...and they're corporations.  They don't "sacrifice", they only slightly reduce margins.
11:19 <@Corydon76_> Not since the 50s, under Eisenhower
11:20 <@Dagmar> Allowing corporations to fully-separate financial interests from human interests is one of the most destructive things ever invented
11:20 <@Dagmar> ...because it allows the humans who act as agents of those corporations to go home at night, completely free of any burden of blame for the plights they create.
11:24 <@dasunt> Corydon76_: I find the disabled aren't parallel to the working class, but paralllel to the poor.
11:24 <@dasunt> Last person I knew on SSDI was pulling in about 800/mo through disability.
11:24 <@Corydon76_> dasunt: Yes, and how much went right back out to pay for medical care?
11:25 <@Corydon76_> There's a difference between working class and the poor?
11:26 <@dasunt> Very little.  MN is civilized.  We consider $9,600/year to be poor and give really good healthcare.
11:26 < dc0de[m]> My son is on it, and is living high on the hog. He has disposable income and all of his bills are paid by the government. That $800/mo for him is free and clear.
11:27 <@Corydon76_> dc0de[m]: I'd like to know he does that, because Peaches is in the same situation and is barely able to make ends meet
11:27 <@dasunt> dc0de[m]: That's good for him. The guy I know got a room in a place that caps at 1/3rd his monthly income (so $267), which left him $533/mo for everything else.
11:28 <@dasunt> Which, admittedly, shows he's way better at managing money than I am, since I spend far more a month.
11:28 <@Corydon76_> About half of his income goes towards a car payment, so he can work part time and see family
11:29 <@dasunt> Corydon76_: Working class = people who gain most or all of their income through paid labor (physical or mental).  Poor = you're having a problem sustaining a minimal standard of living.
11:30 <@Corydon76_> dasunt: isn't that true for the middle class, though?
11:30 < dc0de[m]> I make 130k, and I'm poor. Thanks to California and an evil ex wife
11:30 < dc0de[m]> I now take home only 48k of that.
11:31 < dc0de[m]> So, I know what that's like, I'm filling bankruptcy soon
11:31 <@Corydon76_> dc0de[m]: Texas or Tennessee (no income tax) would allow you to retain more of it
11:31 <@Corydon76_> dc0de[m]: From experience, Chapter 13 is tolerable
11:31 <@dasunt> Corydon76_: I don't think so.  I don't see the middle class trying to maintain a minimum standard of living.  They tend to try to maintain an inflated lifestyle.
11:32 <@Corydon76_> dasunt: according to your definitions, though, that's not what "working class" is
11:32 <@Corydon76_> Middle class also makes most of its income through labor
11:32 <@dasunt> I'd say middle class and working class probably has a pretty major overlap.
11:33 < dc0de[m]> Corydon76_ (IRC) I'm aware, but I also have a wife who loves California more than money
11:33 <@Corydon76_> Even upper middle class is the same way
11:33 <@Corydon76_> dc0de[m]: fair enough
11:34 <@Corydon76_> Even most of the top 1% make their income through labor
11:34 < dc0de[m]> That doesn't mean I'm not trying to change her mind...
11:34 <@Corydon76_> It's only a tiny fraction of the very rich whose income is primarily through investments
11:35 <@dasunt> Okay, so lets stick with the middle class.
11:35 <@dasunt> I'd say roughly middle third quintiles for income.
11:35 <@Corydon76_> And even then, there's some overlap between investment and labor, since its generally their labor which makes investment in their own business pay back
11:35 <@dasunt> s/middle third/middle three/
11:37 <@Corydon76_> You mean the middle 60% (ignoring the 20% at the top and the 20% at the bottom?
11:37 <@dasunt> Roughly.  As a rule of thumb.  One could argue one way or another.  Top of the middle class is doing pretty well, bottom of the middle class is a mistake away from poverty, but whatever.
11:38 <@Corydon76_> I don't know what percentage at the bottom don't work, but my experience says it's very small and mainly includes the disabled
11:39 <@Corydon76_> I would say the entire middle 60% is a mistake away from being poor. Top 19% (excluding the top 1%) has a buffer, but it's not nearly as big as you might  think
11:40 <@dasunt> To backpeddle a bit - the lower middle class is a mistake away from being poor, almost regardless of what they do.  Perhaps two mistakes.  :p
11:40 <@Corydon76_> The problem is that a lot of the standard of living is based upon credit, and that all comes crashing down if you lose a source of income
11:41 <@Corydon76_> Who do you know in the middle class whose vehicle is entirely paid off?
11:41 <@dasunt> Mine?
11:41 <@Corydon76_> Yes, your bicycle is paid off.  Congrats.
11:41 < xray> both of mine are
11:41 <@dasunt> Corydon76_: My truck is, my car is, all of my bikes are.
11:41 <@Corydon76_> I know very few people in that situation
11:42 < xray> Other than my house I have no debt and it will be paid off soon
11:42 <@dasunt> My house will be paid off soon as well.
11:42 <@Corydon76_> Mine won't be paid off until I retire, seeing as how I just bought a new one
11:44 <@dasunt> People have expressed envy about how cheap our house was, and how they wish they could pay off their house quickly.  But then they tell us they could never live in a house as small or as old as ours.
11:44 <@dasunt> So whatever.
11:45 < xray> have to live within your means
11:45 < xray> debt = slavery
11:45 <@dasunt> I prefer living under my means.
11:46 < xray> agreed
11:46 <@dasunt> Having enough money in the bank so that you aren't tied to a job or will go into debt at the first emergency provides a great degree of freedom.
11:46 < xray> exactly
11:46 < xray> That used to be the norm. It isn't anymore
11:47 < xray> what ever happened to delayed gratification?
11:47 <@Corydon76_> It ended with the end of WWII.
11:48 < xray> It was still that way when I was kid in the 50s
11:48 < xray> Really started changing in the 60s
11:48 < xray> the cultural revolution
11:49 <@dasunt> xray: I have a family member with some extra money.  So they bought a travel trailer.  Which then meant that they needed a bigger truck to pull it.  So they bought a new truck.  :(  This is a rather blue-collar family as far as income goes.
11:49 <@Corydon76_> The 50s was also the last point in time when people accepted the government paying for itself.  Since then, it's been tax cuts on the national credit card
11:49 < xray> the slippery slope of debt
11:51 <@dasunt> As I said, I kind of blame capitalism.  We've evolved entities that are great at separating people from their money.
11:52 < xray> we managed  to convince my daughter not to incur student debt. Now she is really glad we did.
11:52 <@Corydon76_> Capitalism or corporatism?
11:52 <@dasunt> Capitalism.
11:52 < xray> Capitalism isn't the problem. Personal responsibility and self control is the problem.
11:52 <@Corydon76_> Capitalism worked fine for 150 years before that
11:52 <@dasunt> Did it?
12:02  * dasunt shrugs
12:02 < dc0de[m]> You're here aren't you?  So yes, it did. In fact.
12:03 <@dasunt> dc0de[m]: By the same standard, slavery worked just fine.
12:03 <@Corydon76_> Capitalism doesn't work for everybody, but then again, nothing ever meets that qualification
12:05 <@Corydon76_> dasunt: the problem with slavery isn't whether it worked.  The problem is that it's vastly unfair for a person to be born into it without any chance of getting out that doesn't depend upon the generosity of the master.
12:06 <@dasunt> Anyways, my point is that capitalism has its own natural selection going on - survival of the most profitable.
12:11 <@dasunt> We should not be surprised that it has become very efficient at extracting profit from people.
12:33 <@NotLarry> Might be a Sr Sysadmin position soon @ https://www.accre.vanderbilt.edu if anyone is interested.
12:33 < PigBot`> Title: Welcome » ACCRE (at www.accre.vanderbilt.edu) http://tinyurl.com/y7223mxr
12:34 <@Dagmar> NotLarry: If they can get me past HR I'm game.  :)
12:34 <@Dagmar> I won't work for Hogan but I like the ACCRE people
12:34 -!- remoford [~remo_lapt@c-68-52-35-32.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
12:35 <@NotLarry> How hard is getting you past HR going to be?
12:35 <@Dagmar> It probably shouldn't be
14:38 <@dasunt> Is there a cryptocurrency pump & dump going on?  First BTC, now Etherium?
14:39 <@dasunt> Either intentional, or through the actions of the regular news cycle when it finds out about something?
15:00 <@Dagmar> There's some large players doing some shifty stuff to keep the prices from going above $400 (ETH) and $50 (LTC)
15:02 <@Dagmar> It looks like a combination of quick transfers (there's no way ~1000 coins hits the queue at just above the midpoint and gets purchased in under 2 seconds multiple times in an hour) and simply building a wall at the sale price and continuing to add to it as people buy, until the price wanders back down out of boredom
15:03 <@Dagmar> At least, that's what's been going on at Coinbase.  I imagine the same thing is going on elsewhere as well
15:04 <@Dagmar> If I didn't know any better, I would say it's BTC hardliners trying to keep LTC or ETH from exceeding BTC's performance
15:04 <@Dagmar> I'm gonna wait 'em out
15:24 <@rattle> I think some of the big mining money wants to squash down the top end price so the growth against fiat TCM isn't so, well, insane.  Otherwise, the economics of mining are going to crash.
15:25 <@rattle> There is some serious profit taking going on too.  I think in the big scheme of things, this is a natural market correction.  Abet a weird one, because, well, all of this is very new.
15:26 <@Dagmar> Yeah I'd kinda like to see a chart showing how much money is exiting each currency
15:27 <@Dagmar> My guess is _rather a lot_ has been exiting ETH and LTC the last few days
15:34 <@rattle> https://coinmarketcap.com
15:34 < PigBot`> Title: CryptoCurrency Market Capitalizations (at coinmarketcap.com) http://tinyurl.com/y97eobyt
15:35 <@rattle> Very useful data..
15:36 <@rattle> Ripple is one of the ones that's had a lot going into it the past month or so.
15:38 <@rattle> Profit taking is one of the biggest drivers.  $2B exited the market today alone..
15:43 <@rattle> In April, the entire cryptocurrency market was only worth like $25M.  Now, it's over $100B.  Mutherfuckers gonna take some out.
15:45 <@rattle> The general trend is upwards, and I think it's going to stay that way for quite some time.  I'm putting my efforts into figuring out how to make gains off the volatility itself.
15:45 <@rattle> Not there yet though..
15:51 <@rattle> Ha ha..  Cisco.  So silly.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.security.policy/T6emeoE-lCU
15:51 < PigBot`> Title: Google Groups (at groups.google.com) http://tinyurl.com/y8u443om
16:13 <@dasunt> That escalates fast:  http://www.startribune.com/case-file-in-philando-castile-shooting-to-be-made-public-today/429659263/
16:13 < PigBot`> Title: Dashcam video: Seven Yanez shots fired in traffic stop of Castile - StarTribune.com (at www.startribune.com) http://tinyurl.com/ycv68c5l
16:14 <@dasunt> I saw National Review had an article that was critical of the verdict.  It's pretty bad when NR speaks out against police violence.
17:14 -!- Corydon76_ [~quassel@zett.abyt.es] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
17:15 -!- Mirage [~mirage@ra.thehippo.net] has joined #se2600
17:15 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Mirage] by ChanServ
17:15 -!- Corydon76 [~quassel@zett.abyt.es] has joined #se2600
17:15 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Corydon76] by ChanServ
17:15 -!- Mirage_ [~mirage@ra.thehippo.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
17:15 -!- vaneck [~vaneck@section9.vaneckzero.com] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
17:15 -!- eryc [~eric@unaffiliated/internetjanitor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:15 -!- am1n0_ [~devnull@psychonaut.iamdevnull.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:15 -!- am1n0 [~devnull@unaffiliated/am1n0] has joined #se2600
17:15 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o am1n0] by ChanServ
17:18 -!- eryc [~eric@internetjanitor.com] has joined #se2600
17:18 -!- eryc [~eric@internetjanitor.com] has quit [Changing host]
17:18 -!- eryc [~eric@unaffiliated/internetjanitor] has joined #se2600
17:18 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o eryc] by ChanServ
17:24 -!- vaneck [~vaneck@section9.vaneckzero.com] has joined #se2600
20:55 -!- klixa-cloud [uid861@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhlcklwxedwaxeoo] has joined #se2600
20:55 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o klixa-cloud] by ChanServ
23:09 -!- remoford [~remo_lapt@c-68-52-35-32.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
--- Log closed Wed Jun 21 00:00:10 2017