--- Log opened Mon Jun 12 00:00:55 2017
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06:35 < aestetix> I had a very bizarre dream last night
06:35 < aestetix> I dreamed that K`Tetch and Elonka got married
06:36 < aestetix> Sometimes I do wonder where this shit comes from
06:36 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:36  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
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07:02 <@Dagmar> Egads!  ETH went nutso overnight
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07:29 < K`Tetch> funny, because I had to mute elonka on facebook yesterday
07:32 < aestetix> K`Tetch: sounds like something I don't want to know about :)
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08:18 <@rattle> Yeah, 418 to 371 would have been a damn nice short to catch.
08:18 < aestetix> oh boy
08:18 < aestetix> http://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.795260
08:18 < PigBot`> Title: Israel successfully hacked ISIS computers; Trump leaked it to the Russians, NYT reports - U.S. News - Haaretz.com (at www.haaretz.com) http://tinyurl.com/y9kyk5eq
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08:40 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch: Yes, that thread was a bit... odd...
08:42 <@Corydon76> Pineapple on pizza was probably the best analogy I saw in that thread, though.
08:42 <@Dolemite> Corydon76: Which thread?  The one about Facebook and Pride?
08:42 <@Corydon76> I think that's what K`Tetch was referring to, although he would need to confirm
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08:45 <@Corydon76> Her rant was rather like saying, "I don't mind pineapple on pizza, but because pineapple on pizza has become such a political issue, I think Pizza Hut should give me the option not to see pineapple as a possible topping.  This upsets to the point where I'm considering never ordering from Pizza Hut again."
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08:48 < aestetix> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/magazine/the-long-lonely-road-of-chelsea-manning.html
08:49 < PigBot`> Title: The Long, Lonely Road of Chelsea Manning - NYTimes.com (at mobile.nytimes.com) http://tinyurl.com/y7e3vhnx
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08:50 <@Dolemite> Corydon76: This is the problem when you collect Facebook friends, I guess.  Too many folks who are simply "I met you once" that don't know intent or even have any tolerance for an actual dialogue.
08:52 <@Corydon76> The followup threads promoted a significant amount of dialogue, though it did not elicit any clarification from what I could tell.
08:52 < aestetix> Dolemite: there was a video I saw of a guy who went and visited people who were his facebook friends
08:52 < aestetix> Most of whom had never met him
08:52 < aestetix> It was kind of amusing
08:53 <@Corydon76> I have a rule about Facebook friends, that I must have interacted with a person outside of Facebook for me to add them.
08:53 < aestetix> Corydon76: so if you interact with them on reddit that's enough? :p
08:53 <@Corydon76> In theory, yes.
08:54 <@Corydon76> I have never added anyone on Facebook with whom I've only interacted on reddit
08:54 <@Corydon76> But that covers a number of people I've interacted with in particular Internet chat rooms, for example
08:54 < aestetix> I don't use facebook because I did a cost/benefit analysis and found it was not overwhelmingly useful
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08:54 < aestetix> I applied the same analysis to twitter, which is why I basically stopped using twitte
08:55 <@Corydon76> aestetix: I think you may have underestimated the value of staying in touch with old friends.
08:56 < aestetix> Corydon76: that's not something I am interestd in
08:56 < aestetix> Plus, it means at the special occasions, like a wedding, I get to learn all kinds of things at once
08:58 < aestetix> And if something is really important, like an old friend is sick, I find out about that anyways
08:59 < aestetix> But if I have a friend I haven't seen in 20 years, I'm not really interested in their cat photos, baby photos, political views, etc
08:59 <@Corydon76> Well, that puts an additional burden on you when you move, to keep all persons apprised of your change in address, so you receive the invitation in the first place.
08:59 < aestetix> Corydon76: that's a burden I'm willing to carry
09:00 < aestetix> I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying that in my cost/benefit analysis, it works better for me not to.
09:03 <@Corydon76> Perhaps.  But I'm lazy, and I enjoy hearing from persons from my past.
09:04 < aestetix> well also
09:04 < aestetix> What passes as "social media" seems to be more of a place for folks to vent and say things they wouldn't say in person.
09:04 <@Corydon76> I have a friend whom I've not seen in 20 years, who was just approved to run a marijuana dispensary in Pennsylvania.  And I'm happy to hear that he's doing well.
09:05 < aestetix> Corydon76: that's great, but the flipside of that is you hear all the drama he has as well, provided he posts that.
09:05 <@Corydon76> He does not.  I've cultivated a circle of friends who mostly hide the drama until it's over.
09:05 < aestetix> And if he doesn't, then it creates that dynamic where you only see the positive of everyone, and develop this sense of jealousy that their lives are all better than yours.
09:05 <@Corydon76> IOW, I learn about the divorce, after it's finalized, not the nitty-gritty while it's going on.
09:06 < aestetix> (I'm using the general you, not you specifically)
09:06 < aestetix> There was a short film on that topic I saw recently, I wish I could remember the title
09:06 <@Corydon76> Maybe it would be in your Facebook feed, to help you remember, if you used it.
09:07 <@Corydon76> (Yes, I've done that before, too.)
09:07 < aestetix> And then facebook gets to know all the things I look at. Not interested.
09:07 < aestetix> I can at least control my browser history.
09:09 <@Corydon76> Unless you're in the habit of poisoning parts of your DNS, I highly doubt that you're as unmonitored by private companies as you think
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09:10 < aestetix> I have over 900 facebook domains blocked in my hosts file
09:10 < aestetix> Also, germany has strict laws about data protection
09:10 <@Corydon76> And what about Google domains and subdomains?
09:10 < aestetix> We're talking about facebook
09:11 <@Corydon76> No, you branched out to browser history a couple lines ago.
09:11 < aestetix> Yes, but my objection here is with facebook.
09:11 < aestetix> Google tried, badly, to put out a social media thing a few years back
09:11 <@Corydon76> Do you really think a company hasn't preserved your browser history better than your cleared cache?
09:12 < aestetix> You do know that Google and Facebook are separate companies, right?
09:13 <@Corydon76> So you've artificially selected Facebook and Twitter to be unworthy of your use, because you've judged their habits of collecting your information not worth the cost, correct?
09:14 < aestetix> No, that's ancillary. The primary reason is because the negative things I get out of them strongly outweighs the positive.
09:14 < aestetix> I'm not sure what your aim is. Are you trying to convince me to get a facebook account?
09:14 <@Corydon76> So either you haven't done the same analysis of Google, or you've judged that Google is welcome to collect your information and know a level of detail about you that you've considered other companies to be too high of a cost
09:15 <@Corydon76> Is that ballpark correct?
09:15 < aestetix> Google doesn't make me want to throw bricks through windows every time I look at it.
09:16 <@Corydon76> Google is also an older company, which is quite a bit better at its marketing efforts
09:16 <@Corydon76> I agree that Facebook advertising has been hamfisted at times.
09:16 < aestetix> So I can either spend all my time being pissed off at clickbait and stupid posts, or think about things that make me marginally happy.
09:17 <@Corydon76> Ah, okay, so I misjudged your objection.  I thought your objection was to the loss of privacy at the hands of private companies.  What you're actually pissed about is content.
09:17 < aestetix> Right.
09:17 < aestetix> The privacy issue is ancillary.
09:18 < aestetix> The main issue is not wanting to die early of a heart attack due to always being pissed off at the world ;)
09:18 <@Corydon76> My medicine for that is getting off the computer and actually participating in the world at large.
09:18 < aestetix> This is a fine solution.
09:19 <@Corydon76> It's why you generally won't see me on IRC on the weekends or at night
09:19 <@Corydon76> (anymore)
09:20 < aestetix> Basically, IMHO sites like facebook/twitter have taken the allegorical "uh oh, someone is wrong on the internet" and gave it steroids
09:20 < aestetix> And given that the new media business model is about getting as many clicks as possible, it's good business to promote this
09:22 <@Corydon76> I would take issue with the assessment that that's "good business".  It IS profitable in the short term, but customers become weary and immune over the longer term.
09:24 <@Corydon76> And it drives away potential customers, such as yourself.  A good business is always expanding its customer base
09:24 < aestetix> Corydon76: here's my view on that
09:24 < aestetix> 5-6 years ago, I would have paid twitter $5 a month for my account, to help ensure it didn't turn into what it is
09:24 < aestetix> I was not alone, and twitter ignored us.
09:25 < aestetix> We tried to make a similar case with ello, and then ello took vc money, which promptly made all of us leave it.
09:25 < aestetix> The issue being that these companies don't *want* customers.
09:25 < aestetix> Or more precisely, they don't want their users to be customers.
09:26 <@Corydon76> I think your second one is more correct, because I doubt that they ignored you.  I think they assessed whether there were enough people willing to pay for them to become profitable, and the assessment was that there was not.
09:26 < aestetix> Right, but it had the surface appearance of ignoring us
09:27 <@Corydon76> That is the clearest case that they did seriously consider you.
09:27 < aestetix> Yes, we now live in a world where having customers is bad business.
09:28 <@Corydon76> Good businesses tend not to tip their hand when they're assessing a business plan, else competitors get a leg up
09:28 < aestetix> By bad business, I mean high risk.
09:28 <@Corydon76> If all you get is platitudes from the word, Go, they never considered you a serious plan
09:29 < aestetix> And that in itself should give everyone pause.
09:29 <@Corydon76> Why?  That's business and marketing.
09:29 < aestetix> Because it creates two misconceptions
09:30 <@Corydon76> What do you think marketing is?
09:30 < aestetix> 1. That you can exercize your right to free speech on facebook 2. That you are a citizen or a customer and have respective rights
09:30 < aestetix> Facebook makes no attempt to correct this misconception
09:31 <@Corydon76> People are generally confused about what it means to have rights.
09:32 < aestetix> Yes, but if you go to city hall and voice an opinion that is unpopular, the police will not grab you halfway through your speech and escort you out
09:32 <@Corydon76> I saw a question today on Quora about someone who thought someone's free speech rights were infringed when they were fired from CNN.
09:32 < aestetix> Whereas facebook suspends people all the time, often with no reason given
09:32 <@dasunt> Corydon76: I do wonder about that, to be honest.  I know legally, companies have the freedom to fire at will over speech.
09:33 <@dasunt> Practically though, we're seeing a lot more corporate power.
09:33 < aestetix> Corydon76: I do think that is borderline illegal.
09:33 <@Corydon76> aestetix: That comment on City Hall is not as certain as you might think
09:34 < aestetix> Corydon76: yes I know, it depends on the city hall
09:34 < aestetix> I've seen things happen in Oakland city hall that would get people arrested anywhere else
09:35 <@Corydon76> The authorities have figured out that there are lots of excuses they can manufacture for throwing you out
09:35 <@Corydon76> One of the more recent ones are the cases where they sell the building to a company, and thus you're no longer on public property
09:36 <@Corydon76> If the city commissioners meet on private property, the owner can throw anyone out they wish, which curiously seems to line up with who the politicians want thrown out
09:37 < aestetix> Seems like a good response to that would be to introduce a bill requiring all government meetings to be held on government property
09:38 <@Corydon76> But yes, Facebook is a private asset, and you're there at their pleasure
09:38 <@Corydon76> aestetix: and who would introduce that bill?  The same legislature which sold the State Capitol, so they would have a pretense for throwing out protestors?
09:39 < aestetix> Corydon76: make a friend on city council
09:40 <@Corydon76> Ah, patronage.  An even finer tradition of political theater.
09:40 < aestetix> Corydon76: how many government committees have you been on?
09:40 <@Corydon76> Let me think.  None that I remember.
09:41 < aestetix> Ok. You know I was on one, right?
09:41 <@Corydon76> You were!  And what did you accomplish in that time?
09:41 < aestetix> I helped create this: http://www2.oaklandnet.com/government/o/CityAdministration/d/PrivacyAdvisoryCommission/index.htm
09:41 < PigBot`> aestetix: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
09:42 < aestetix> So yes, all these pitfalls you're advising me, I've lived through them :)
09:42 < aestetix> Because of our work on the DAC committee, all privacy related issues in Oakland must now go through this committee before going to city council
09:43 <@Corydon76> So you helped to create a commission, which provide nonbinding reports to the city council, to be ignored at will
09:43 < aestetix> Wow, fuck you too.
09:44 < aestetix> Thanks for completely dismissing the 2+ years of work we did, and all the discussings with the OPD, city council, and other groups
09:44 <@Corydon76> Excuse me for being cynical, but remind me what you've accomplished by doing that?
09:45 < aestetix> A conduit by which city council members must, if they choose to ignore committee recommendations, justify those decisions or risk not being re-elected
09:45 < aestetix> But forget I said anything.
09:45 <@Corydon76> At long last, what did you accomplish that can't be overridden simply by a business coming in and giving campaign money to a bunch of council members?
09:46 < aestetix> So, are you this much of a dick in real life, or are you just saying things to piss me off?
09:46 <@Corydon76> We're right back to marketing, where a campaign can craft a message to get voters
09:47 <@Corydon76> And the campaign needs money to do that.
09:47 < aestetix> Then again, you haven't done any actual government work yourself, so I guess I shouldn't really care about your apathy.
09:47 <@Corydon76> This is cynicism, not apathy
09:48 < aestetix> It's willful disengagement, as well as insulting me personally.
09:48 <@Corydon76> I have a brother in law who managed, along with several other people, to completely toss out a majority of city council and have a majority on the city supervisors.
09:49 < aestetix> I explained something I put a lot of work into, that is the first of its kind in the US, and which has been making an impact
09:49 < aestetix> And you dismissed it out of hand, without even bothering to ask any questions about it.
09:49 <@Corydon76> Now he (along with several others) are in charge of the city.
09:49 < aestetix> So from hereon out, I'll treat your opinions on similar matters with the same courtesy.
09:49 <@Corydon76> That's a lot better, because it means he cannot be ignored.
09:49 < aestetix> Now if you're wondering if there is a matching ordinance to that committee, the answer is yes.
09:50 <@Corydon76> I already saw the ordinance
09:50 < aestetix> And still chose to be an asshole to me.
09:51 <@Corydon76> Y'know, I'm kind of relishing this.  All this time, you've found a way to get the goat of so many people in here.  Someone has finally managed to get yours.
09:54  * aestetix shrugs
10:02 < _NSAKEY> aestetix: At least he isn't making off-color assassination market jokes about you. Maybe it's progress?
11:52 <@dasunt> Huh, I'm trying to find a screw with an odd threading, and I'm finding it also used for rifle scopes.
11:52 <@dasunt> I wonder if a gun dealer would sell me some (or if they'd be long enough for my purpose...)
12:15 < K`Tetch> yes Dolemite and Corydon76 - that thread.
12:17 < dc0de[m]> Have you talked to any local machine shops?  They have access to specialized catalogs of parts and screws, and if need be, they can make whatever you need.
12:17 < K`Tetch> 09:53:05 «@Corydon76» I have a rule about Facebook friends, that I must have interacted with a person outside of Facebook for me to add them. <-- I'm extremely picky. which is why i have some pending requests that date back to 2008
12:20 < K`Tetch> basically my friends list consists of good friends of the wife's, peole I went to school with and tollerated, select pirate party people, select battlebots/robot wars people, a few people from dragoncon, and a few people from working at torrentfreak (plus the wto friends that don't emcompas any of those, and family)
12:20 < K`Tetch> anyone else can 'follow' me
12:21 <@Dolemite> My rule is that I've met them (or their spouse) at some point
12:21 <@Dolemite> I have very few FB friends that are spouses I haven't met, but there are one or two
12:22 <@Dolemite> But meeting me doesn't guarantee FB friendship
12:22 < K`Tetch> i have a few i've not met 'in person', but then again, I've not ever even met my boss for the last 10 years
12:23 < K`Tetch> and its very rare for me to add spouses
12:25 < K`Tetch> also, before aestetix points out his lack of use again, part of my job involves using facebook, to manage the torrentfreak page
12:35 < aestetix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHJn_FTJiuk
12:35 < PigBot`> Title: Press Briefing with Press Secretary Sean Spicer - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/ybtxt9ls
13:02 <@dasunt> dc0de[m]: Not yet.  Tried the good hardware store, and they didn't have it.  It's a #6 screw with 40 tpi.
13:02 <@dasunt> #4-40 is common, and #6-32 is common, but #6-40 seems relatively obscure.
13:12 <@opticron> I had a really hard time finding #4-40 locally
13:12 <@opticron> ended up having to go with M3 which still wasn't easy to find
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13:27 < xray> Try Handy Ace Hardware http://www.acehardware.com/mystore/index.jsp?store=07479&cid=localstore07479
13:27 < PigBot`> Title: Ace Hardware (at www.acehardware.com) http://tinyurl.com/yasjm4jp
13:27 < xray> They can order anything
13:28 < xray> they are not your typical Ace hardware.
13:28 < xray> Best hardware store I have ever been in an I've been in stores all over the world.
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14:16 < K`Tetch> no fastenall near you?
14:26 < dc0de[m]> Found a McMaster-Carr catalog, or look them up online. They sell, "everything" tio do with mechanical/shop items.
14:28 <@dasunt> opticron: Have an Ace Hardware?  They had 4-40s in stock.
14:45 <@opticron> I think we used to, not sure if we still do as the old location is definitely gone
14:46 <@opticron> the answer is apparently not really
15:18 <@dasunt> Why don't internet browsers know how to handle misbehaving tabs?
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15:35 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Because some people program games directly in the browser, and those tabs legitimately take up tons of CPU
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 13 00:00:56 2017