--- Log opened Thu Apr 20 00:00:29 2017
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04:08 < aestetix> https://sputniknews.com/radio_fault_lines/201704201052798722-trump-iran-nuke-treaty/
04:08 < aestetix> this show is great
04:08 < PigBot`> Title: Trump & the Iran Nuke Treaty: His Latest Flip-Flop or the Art of the Deal? (at sputniknews.com) http://tinyurl.com/keekfdv
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06:49 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:54  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
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07:16 < dfused> yar
07:41 < aestetix> wow
07:41 < aestetix> you know the democrats are fucking up when they are making me sympathetic to ann coulter
07:41 < dfused> fuck dat bitch
07:42 < aestetix> And I really, really hate her
07:42 < aestetix> wait
07:43 < aestetix> so she claims to be a small government conservative, but is calling for the attorney general to look into her speec at berkeley getting cancelled
08:32 <@Corydon76> Why do you assume that university officials are Democrats?
08:34 <@Corydon76> They're opposed to deficit spending; they're interested in law & order.  They sound like Republicans to me.
08:35 < aestetix> Corydon76: because I lived in the east bay for many years. They are all registered either democrat or independent, which translates into Bernie supporters
08:35 <@Corydon76> The officials?  I'm not talking about the students or the professors.
08:36 < aestetix> It's sort of anathema in the Bay Area to even hint that you support republican ideas
08:36 <@Corydon76> So they're DINOs
08:36 < aestetix> yes
08:37 < aestetix> I was just about to say that
08:37 <@Corydon76> RIDs
08:37 < aestetix> The bay area is full of republicans who call themselves democrats
08:37 < aestetix> And communists. And anarchists.
08:37 < dfused> and people and trees
08:37 < dfused> and roads
08:37 <@Corydon76> Or, as the English department would pluralize it, RsID
08:38 < aestetix> Corydon76: if you're suggesting that the people who call themselves democrats are very far estranged from actual democrat philosophy, I'm with you
08:38 < aestetix> Thus why I'm interested in the "I hate everyone" party
08:40 < dfused> http://www.prruk.org/why-v-for-vendetta-author-alan-moore-says-you-should-support-jeremy-corbyn/
08:40 < PigBot`> Title: Why V for Vendetta author Alan Moore says you should support Jeremy Corbyn (at www.prruk.org) http://tinyurl.com/kmo3hct
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09:43 <@dasunt> I never really got the whole OMG COLLEGE IS FULL OF LIBERAL BRAINWASHING meme that's going around.
09:44 <@Corydon76> dasunt: It's anti-intellectualism, an attempt to justify ignoring policy advice coming out of universities
09:45 <@dasunt> My wife went back to school a few years ago, and I don't recall an ounce of that.  I worked at an (admittedly Christian) university as a contract worker for a few months, and while it was accepting of people, it definitely wasn't liberal.
09:46 <@dasunt> Is the idea of college as a liberal indoctoration camp just a way for the right to excuse their lack of popularity amoung the young?
09:46 < aestetix> hmmm
09:46 < aestetix> dasunt: I'm probably biased because I was in the bay area for so long.
09:47 <@dasunt> After all, the right seems to fear taco trucks on every corner, while the young would probably consider that to be awesome.
09:47 < aestetix> That place *is* full of left wing brainwashing.
09:48 < aestetix> I stopped going to social events before I moved away because there was *so much* preaching of Marxism
09:48 <@Corydon76> Bleah, every department on a college campus thinks its ideas are the most important.
09:48 <@Dolemite> Taco Trucks!   Yummmmmmmm.
09:48 <@Dolemite> And I'm old
09:48 <@Corydon76> The Mathematics department engages in mathematics brainwashing.
09:48 <@Corydon76> The Physics department engages in physics brainwashing
09:48 < aestetix> Corydon76: I'm not referring to college campuses in general, more to the Bay Area specifically
09:49 < aestetix> I imagine Vanderbilt is a totally different beast
09:49 <@Corydon76> aestetix: yeah, and women's studies does the same damn thing, only to their philosophical viewpoints.  This is commonly what they think of as "liberal" thought
09:49 < aestetix> I thought "liberal" meant open exchange of ideas.
09:50 < aestetix> IE I'll entertain your Marxism, if you listen to my capitalist views
09:50 <@dasunt> Marxism as a theory isn't a bad theory.
09:51 <@Corydon76> aestetix: you're confusing the classical definition with the definition used in political diatribes, which is "anything I disagree with is liberal"
09:51 < aestetix> But I have more issues with denying access to an otherwise public walkway to someone who isn't black
09:51 <@Corydon76> And dasunt was most definitely referring to the political diatribe version
09:51 < aestetix> Which berkley did a while back
09:51 < aestetix> Or more specifically, they denied access to anyone who was "white"
09:51 <@dasunt> Marx and Engels do have an intriguing interpretation of society.
09:52 <@dasunt> I don't think capitalism actually even addresses the same point.  One's a theory, the other is a system.
09:53 < aestetix> I also oppose shutting down public forums to views you don't like
09:53 < aestetix> Corydon76: if your issue is with terminology, I'm totally open to coining a new word to destroy these dinos
09:53 < aestetix> sort of like how I call third wave feminists "fauxminists" to disambiguate
09:54 <@Corydon76> You mean TERFs?
09:54 <@dasunt> What's wrong with third wave?
09:54 < aestetix> Corydon76: TERF doesn't even begin to cover the issue
09:54 <@Corydon76> MERFs?
09:54 < aestetix> It's a combination of black supremacy, anti-male, etc
09:55 < aestetix> I'd actually prefer TERFs over the type that has surfaced now
09:55 < aestetix> dasunt: they make Germaine Greer look sane.
09:56 <@dasunt> Amazing thing is that I live in a liberal area, work in a liberal office, and have liberal friends, and I don't run into this at all.
09:56 <@Corydon76> aestetix: TERF is at least indicative of the entire group
09:57 <@Corydon76> dasunt: that's because they're pretty much limited to college campuses and wouldn't survive very well in the real world.  They'd be ejected from workplaces for creating hostile environments
09:57 <@dasunt> Corydon76: LOL.
09:57 < aestetix> What's interesting is that this genotype seems to share a lot of traits with hardcore Protestant puritans
09:58 <@dasunt> So effectively it's a strawman - selecting an extremist small subgroup and claiming they are typical.
09:58 < aestetix> Like, not only are they anti white anti male etc, they are also anti anything remotely sexual, and they do a lot of word and thought policing
09:58 <@Corydon76> dasunt: I'm not joking.  TERFs basically take all of the things feminists have said men have been doing to oppress them and flips it over, so it's the women oppressing men.
09:58 < aestetix> Corydon76: exactly.
09:58 <@Corydon76> Instead of equality as the goal, it's matriarchy.
09:58 < aestetix> Yep.
09:59 <@dasunt> Well, TERFs are crazy.
09:59 < aestetix> Corydon76: it's a result of a very rigid interpretation of intersectionality
09:59 <@Corydon76> Which is fine AS A THOUGHT EXERCISE.  The problem is that they're serious.
09:59 < aestetix> Which in itself is a bullshit theory, IMHO
09:59 <@dasunt> I do not think TERFs are the norm though, even though most people have hangups over the whole trans thing.
10:00 <@dasunt> I wouldn't be surprised if, overall, third wavers aren't as transexclusionary on a whole as those who have second wave views (primarily because of the correlation between age and views).
10:01 < aestetix> I do get a kick out of people who claim that there is no such thing as biology and that gender is entirely a social construct
10:01 < aestetix> They do not have a good response to "why do trans people need to take hormones?"
10:01 <@Corydon76> Gender IS a social construct.  Sex is biology.
10:01 < aestetix> They actually have a lot in common with flat earthers
10:01 < aestetix> Corydon76: in many ways it is, but there are general trends which emerge.
10:02 <@dasunt> Gender is pretty much a social construct.
10:02 <@Corydon76> aestetix: the problem with a general trend is when it's generalized to the exclusion of all other scenarios
10:03 < aestetix> Corydon76: but the existence of such trends shows why equality of opportunity is a good idea but forcing an equality of outcome is not.
10:03 <@dasunt> Who really advocates for an equality of outcome?
10:03 < aestetix> dasunt: that's what quotas are
10:04 < aestetix> I'm in favor of making opportunities available to everyone who seeks them.
10:04 <@Corydon76> dasunt: the problem with equality of opportunity is that it assumes that the opportunity, equally presented to all parties, provides for general equity
10:04 <@Corydon76> Because of things like upbringing and environment, equality of opportunity rarely results in equity
10:04 < aestetix> Corydon76: yes, but at some point you have to allow someone to make choices and stop blaming their environment.
10:04 <@Corydon76> However, the answer isn't necessarily to seek equality of result
10:05 < aestetix> There is some great research on this where some psychologists worked with people to map out what they wanted in life and how to achieve them, and giving them that structure negated a lot of circumstantial issues.
10:07 < aestetix> http://www.selfauthoring.com/ in particular
10:07 < PigBot`> Title: Self Authoring - Plan a Better Life (at www.selfauthoring.com) http://tinyurl.com/jvg6fw8
10:08 < aestetix> http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/07/10/419202925/the-writing-assignment-that-changes-lives
10:08 < PigBot`> Title: The Writing Assignment That Changes Lives : NPR Ed : NPR (at www.npr.org) http://tinyurl.com/o7jbd5z
10:09 <@Corydon76> There is a certain irony in this discussion occurring in this channel, which is overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male, and overwhelmingly well-educated
10:09 < aestetix> Corydon76: and overwhelmingly self-selected
10:09 <@Corydon76> aestetix: who exactly is here against their will?
10:09 < aestetix> I'm not sure how discussiong the messenger of the idea over the idea itself helps anything.
10:10 < aestetix> Corydon76: nobody
10:10 <@Corydon76> That *did* apply to me in #asterisk at one point
10:10 < aestetix> I just wish I had known about that study when I was still in the bay area
10:11 <@Corydon76> As an employee of Digium, I was *required* to be in that channel
10:11 < aestetix> You can always get a different job ;)
10:11 <@Corydon76> As a sufferer of Imposter Syndrome, I don't always believe that.
10:11 < aestetix> Corydon76: and the difference between you and a bay area TERF is that you were just making an observation, whereas a TERF would hold it as a weapon against you
10:37 <@dasunt> Corydon76: See, that's why I think we should measure results.  On average, out of any group, we should find a certain percentage of people doing well, a certain percentage doing poorly, etc.
10:37 <@Corydon76> dasunt: sound like quotas
10:37 <@dasunt> If we start seeing a group from one area doing much more poorly than another, then there's likely something wrong.
10:40 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Nope, measurement.  Quotas would be trying to force the result - X kids from most schools become scientists, so at least y% of X kids from crappy school district school must be scientists.
10:40 <@dasunt> Measurement would be "we have a significant deviation from the norm, this school is most likely underperforming and we must address this issue."
10:41 <@Corydon76> dasunt: How do you do that in the short term without allowing entire generations to fall by the wayside?
10:44 <@dasunt> Corydon76: My snarky response is to say that all elected officials' children must go to the worst performing school within 50 miles.
10:44 <@dasunt> A sort of "eat your own dogfood" solution.
10:45 <@Corydon76> I think the right answer is "testing", although the followup question is, "What are we already doing?"
10:46 <@dasunt> I do think there needs to be some buy-in from the surrounding community.  Perhaps partially ideological (realizing we're all in this together), perhaps partially practical.
10:48 <@Corydon76> This is basically Common Core, where we have national standards and we test to verify that schools are matching up to standards
10:48 <@Corydon76> And then, if a school fails to pass muster, we take action at the local or state level to improve the situation
10:48 <@dasunt> But does it work?
10:49 <@dasunt> And what incentive do we have to make it work - how do we, as a society, end up owning the issue?
10:50 <@dasunt> Where I grew up, I went to school with everyone - it was a small town, there were no alternatives.  High school was high school - from the kid whose single parent was on welfare to the kid whose parents were doctors.
10:51 <@dasunt> That forces a healthy interest in the quality of the school system.
10:51 <@dasunt> But it doesn't scale in our current system in more densely populated areas - there's too many alternatives.  You can move out of Crap High School area to Good High School area.
10:52 <@Corydon76> Or be rezoned
10:54 <@Corydon76> Detection is the first step.  Remediation is the second.
10:54 <@dasunt> Here, at least, you can send your kid to any school you want.  So that helps, but it leads to a penalty when poor crappy area must take the time and money to arrange for their kids to go to to rich good school.
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10:57 <@dasunt> The one thing that worries me about quotas is its a great way to fail.  Quotas work when it's to mitigate discrimination that occurs at that step.  But giving a group of kids a shitty K12 experience and then giving quotas at the college level doesn't really help them that much - they don't have the background.
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11:51 < dfused> i need a nap
11:54 <@dasunt> So do I.
11:54 <@dasunt> Thinking of a mental health night - pizza, beer, some movie on the TV...
11:54 < dfused> yeah wouldnt be a bad idea
11:57 < aestetix> dasunt: Caligula is always a classic
11:57 <@dasunt> Wait, this juicer that's in the news just dispenses bags of already made juice, yet it costs $400?
11:57 <@dasunt> aestetix: "I Claudius" - William Hurt is the one true Caligula.
11:57 < aestetix> I know of this
11:58 < aestetix> Isn't there a Gore Vidal book too?
11:58 <@dasunt> I mean John Hurt.
11:58 < aestetix> oh no
11:58 < aestetix> it's Robert Graves
11:58 < aestetix> I knew it sounded familiar
12:00 <@dasunt> The BBC series is based off of Graves's "I, Claudius" and "Claudius the God", IIRC.
12:00 < aestetix> Ok, that's now on my list :)
12:07 < K`Tetch_> next you'll be adding the original house of cards
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12:12 < aestetix> K`Tetch_: I've already seen that
12:20 < K`Tetch_> k
12:28 <@dasunt> What's the original House of Cards?
12:30 < K`Tetch_> bbc series, based on a book, done int he early 90s, on the aftermath of Maggie
12:30 < K`Tetch_> writen by an ex cabinet minister of maggie's
12:30 < K`Tetch_> its on netflix
12:30 < K`Tetch_> 3 tv movies
12:31 < K`Tetch_> sorry, 4x55min
12:31 < K`Tetch_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Cards_(UK_TV_series)
12:31 < PigBot`> Couldn't snarf url: HTTP Error 404: Not Found. http://tinyurl.com/krmlebc
12:37  * dasunt is grumpy.
12:37 < dfused> word.
12:38 <@dasunt> FFS, person A says do something, person B says not to do it.
12:38 <@dasunt> Gaaah.
12:38 <@dasunt> Of course, person B tells me weeks after person A.
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13:37 <@dasunt> Ballsy:  http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/20/investing/exxonmobil-russia-rosneft-sanctions/index.html
13:37 < PigBot`> Title: Why ExxonMobil would want to get back into Russia - Apr. 20, 2017 (at money.cnn.com) http://tinyurl.com/kn867jc
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15:04 <@dasunt> Why is there a CNN headline claiming that Trump is seeking a reciprocal trade deal with Italy?
15:05 <@dasunt> Can Italy even make its own trade deals?
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15:41 < K`Tetch_> no
15:42 < K`Tetch_> there was one the other day about one with the UK, which put the brexiters in a quandry
15:42 < K`Tetch_> "hurrah trade deal" on one hand, but also "oh fuck, they'll plunder the NHS" on the other
16:55 <@dasunt> Wait, who would plunder the NHHS?
16:56 <@dasunt> Er, NHS?
16:59 <@dasunt> I was trying to hunt down the story, and instead I stumbled across the rape clause bullshit.
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19:11 < K`Tetch_> dasunt - the tories want to privatise it
19:11 < K`Tetch_> also..
19:11 < K`Tetch_> https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/855179842840604672?s=04
19:11 < PigBot`> Title: Jim Sciutto on Twitter: "BREAKING: US authorities have prepared charges to seek the arrest of @WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, US officials tell CNN" (at twitter.com) http://tinyurl.com/kqsbcq4
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20:52 <@Dagmar> So that's how they want it, eh?
20:52 <@Dagmar> So be it.
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21:40 < _NSAKEY> aestetix: I saw I, Claudius back in high school. It's really good, for having the production values of a play.
21:41 < _NSAKEY> It's actually based on two books Robert Graves wrote, which are a fictionalized version of the first part of Suetonius' Twelve Caesars (Which Graves also translated at one point).
22:00 < dfused> look at the big brains on brad!
22:00 < dfused> aaaaaand on that note, time for sleep =)
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22:32 < Tuttlez> Is this channel still active?
22:34 <@Dagmar> Suuuuure
22:34 < Tuttlez> Well that answeres that then
22:36 < _NSAKEY> Tuttlez: It's been really active, as of late.
22:37 < Tuttlez> I havent looked here in a few years
22:49 <@Evilpig> it gets lively from time to time
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 21 00:00:31 2017