--- Log opened Wed Apr 19 00:00:27 2017
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05:55 < xray> The Lounge irc client has spell check
05:55  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
05:58 < xray> But who types slow enough to notice the words spell check underlined.
06:14 < dfused> or would really care enough to stop, right click, correct, enter..... most of us would just go, "ah fuck it, yo know what th ehell I meant".
06:27 < dfused> so if WH is correcting H1B Visa situation..... then what the hell was actually wrong with it supposedly?
06:28 < aestetix> Lots of things
06:28 < aestetix> It was getting heavily abused by bay area companies
06:31 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
06:34 < xray> There is a youtube video of a seminar for companies showing them how to skirt the H1B rules.
06:34 < xray> So companies have been cheating for a long time now
06:35 <@Dolemite> Congratulations, Atlanta!  You get 2 more months of political ads and phone calls!
06:36 < dfused> but this really only applioes to high technical jobs though right? like engineers n such? I mean, are companies rly taking all the effort to pull in foreigners for help desk? just to avoid hiring americans?
06:36 < xray> No idea
06:36  * dfused is quite ignorant to the whole h1b thing. never cared
06:36 <@Dolemite> No, not help desk
06:36 <@Dolemite> But they definitely are for coding sweat shops
06:37 <@Dolemite> DBAs and Java monkeys
06:37 < xray> But from the video I saw they were going all out to hack the H1B process in direct violation of the intent of the program
06:40 < dfused> so then is the "fix it" platform about stopping abuse of foreign workers or about forcing companies to hire US coders? cause are there really that many out of work programmers cause hib situation?
06:40 < xray> Don't know
06:40 < dfused> as for DBA...well, everyone knows that Indians make the best DBAs lol
06:51 < aestetix> It's actually quite brilliant
06:52 < aestetix> Massive companies that are abusing the h1b visa system can just use anti-trump hate to try to attack them, and look good
06:52 < aestetix> when they are actually being fucking godawful in their abuses
07:02 < xray> yes
07:03 < xray> People assume that companies take political positions because they "believe in the cause" when in fact it is just to manipulate the system and the people to give them an advantage
07:03 < aestetix> It's just like the NC bathroom law
07:04 < aestetix> All these companies came out against it and got lots of good publicity
07:04 < xray> This doesn't mean that some companies don't "believe in the cause"
07:04 < aestetix> And the public thinks the companies are great even though the companies do awful, awful things
07:04 < xray> It is just really hard to tell from the outsid3e
07:04 < xray> outside
07:04 < aestetix> ye[p
07:04 < xray> If they are abusing H1B it really doesn't matter what their motivation is
07:05 < xray> that was a good example
07:06 < xray> it costs them nothing and gets them PR when in fact they may be doing things in practice that directly harm "the cause"
07:07 < xray> the entire bathroom thing is interesting. I lived in Japan when there was no such thing as womens/mens bathrooms. There were just bathrooms.
07:07 < xray> It was no big deal.
07:07 < xray> Where as here it is.
07:07 < aestetix> it's not "sexism" it's a way to categorize society
07:08 < xray> It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be if they just got rid of gender bathrooms all together and there were just bathrooms.
07:08 < aestetix> well
07:08 < aestetix> I wouldn't care, as long as everyone got their own rooms
07:08 < xray> Not that I think they should do that but I think people would come unhinged in this country.
07:09 < xray> There were no separate rooms in japan
07:09 < aestetix> Although I can see why women wouldn't want to be in a room with a bunch of dudes using urinals
07:09 < xray> a trough on the floor on one side and stalls with no doors on the other with a hole in the floor to squat over.
07:09 < xray> But that was back in the early 60s no idea what it is like now.
07:10 < aestetix> Yeah there are some toilets like that in Berlin in the Auslanderbehörde
07:10 < xray> and some bathrooms didn't even have stalls
07:10 < xray> just holes in the floor.
07:11 < xray> Did I mention that the bathrooms were very interesting smell wise
07:11 < aestetix> ugh
07:11 < xray> Then there were the benjo ditches
07:11 < xray> From the pictures I have seen Japan has changed A LOT since then
07:12 < dfused> yeah a lot more westernized
07:13 < dfused> I think last year I saw only one bethroom which just had holes in teh floor
07:13 < xray> I would still love to go back. I lived there for three years
07:13 < dfused> and was labeled specifically
07:13 < aestetix> xray: been to Berlin?
07:13 < xray> Not yet
07:14 < xray> Would love to visit but I don't travel as well as I used  to
07:14 < xray> hard to get around when I can't remain standing for more than about 15 minutes
07:14 < xray> I want to go to defcon again.
07:15 < aestetix> when's the last time you went
07:15 < xray> I'll see how I do at DragonCon this year. I'm on staff for the EFF track
07:15 < aestetix> I haven't been in 5-6 years, but it was way different than the first time I went
07:16 < xray> My short list of places to visit: Guam, Japan, Australia, England
07:16 < xray> Would love to see India too
07:17 <@Dolemite> Been to all but Guam
07:18 <@Dolemite> India was the first country this high tech redneck ever visited, outside of the US
07:18 < xray> I'm from Guam so I would like to see it again
07:18 <@Dolemite> Talk about a major culture shock.  Really opened my eyes.
07:18 < xray> India?
07:18 <@Dolemite> Yep
07:19 < xray> We really take things for granted here.
07:19 <@Dolemite> Yes, we do
07:19 < xray> that we should be really grateful for
07:19 <@Dolemite> India - the sheer poverty is what got to me
07:19 < dfused> we choose as a society to live a better life...
07:20 <@Dolemite> China - the complete difference between what we, as a Capitalist country, project values upon those Communists...  is so much different from reality
07:20 < aestetix> Dolemite: are the Chinese as miserable as the Russians are?
07:20 < aestetix> I was in Moscow in 2013, it was scary.
07:20 <@Dolemite> I've never been to Russia
07:20 < xray> I have friends in China and there descriptions of the culture are very interesting
07:20 <@Dolemite> Chinese were not miserable, though
07:21 < xray> Not sure if I want to visit Russia
07:21 < aestetix> In Russia you can see clearly the results of decades of corrupt government and secret police
07:21 <@Dolemite> The bottom line is - no matter what your country of origin, most people just want to get along, build a family, and feel connected to others.
07:21 < xray> I find Russia interesting having fought in the cold war but I'm not sure I want to visit
07:22 < xray> my daughter has been though and she really liked it
07:22 <@Dolemite> Chinese people love Americans, but don't care much for American politics
07:22 < aestetix> Dolemite: yes, without being confronted by a police officer about a private conversation you had with a close friend who turned out to be an agent
07:22 < xray> totally agree. we have more in common across cultures than most people realize
07:23 < xray> We have a hard time wrapping our heads around a malevolent government here.
07:23 < aestetix> xray: this is why when I went to Russia I lost most of my respect for bay area activists
07:24 < xray> It would do people a lot of good to visit countries where you have to guard everything you say and who you associate with
07:24 < aestetix> It's like... they are marching in the streets and complaining about whatever.
07:24 < aestetix> In Russia if you do that, the police shoot you in the head
07:24 < xray> and your family and reinds
07:24 < xray> freinds
07:24 < aestetix> Or maybe a week later you get into a taxi and never get out of it
07:24 < dfused> and ur dog...and ur dogs freinds
07:24 < xray> LoL but not that far fethced
07:24 < xray> pun not intended
07:25 < dfused> lol
07:26 < xray> If you want to see what Communism/Socialism can do for you just visit Venezuela
07:26 < xray> it used to be a nice country
07:26 < xray> I haven't been there but my wife has
07:26 < dfused> yeah but it chose to solely base its economy on oil
07:26 < xray> It is sad to see what has happened to them
07:27 < aestetix> well Jordan Peterson put it nicely.
07:27 < xray> Interesting. Do you have link.
07:27 < aestetix> Let's assume you create the perfect marxist utopia, and are the benevolent ruler
07:27 < aestetix> Everything is good until someone assassinates you
07:27 < xray> Which is patently impossible but I'll go with your scenario
07:27 < xray> for the sake of argument
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07:28 < dfused> the problem with utopia's is that everyones definition is different.
07:28 < aestetix> And if you don't think that will happen, you have not studied history
07:28 < xray> The problem with debating  Communism/Socialism vs Democracy/Free Enterprise
07:28 < xray> is debating what works
07:29 < xray> they Communism/Socialism believers will say that it has failed because it just hasn't been done properly yet.
07:29 < xray> When it should be argue that Communism/Socialism are flat out immoral and evil.
07:30 < aestetix> Actually one of the issues with giving the POTUS so much power is that it makes him a huge target, so you have to increase the security around him, which basically makes him a king
07:30 < xray> yeah our government has strayed very very far from it's roots and that's the fault of the people
07:31 < xray> It is our job to keep that from happening and we have been asleep at the wheel
07:31 < aestetix> well someone pointed out that this is the reason Congress fought so hard over the SCOTUS nomination
07:31 < aestetix> Everyone talks about how much power the POTUS and SCOTUS has.
07:31 < aestetix> Nobody thinks Congress has power anymore
07:32 < aestetix> There is a reason for this
07:32 < xray> Congress has power, they just don't wield it for the people.
07:32 < aestetix> Yeah but they have ceded a LOT of it to the president over the years
07:33 < aestetix> I mean, the massive bloat of bureacracy that is the federal government, is mostly in the executive branch
07:33 < xray> 90% (pulled out of the air like all good statistics) of what the Feds do is not what the government should be involved in at all.
07:34 < xray> Which part of facilitating treaties, trade, and self defense did they not understand.
07:34 < xray> The rest is not their job.
07:35 < xray> I really wish they taught civics in school instead of social justice "whatever that is".
07:35 < xray> they can't seem to agree on a definition
07:38 < xray> I think this is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzpc2vh8Ow
07:38 < PigBot`> Title: Jordan Peterson on Marxism, Socialism and Postmodernism - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/kxfw6sa
07:39 < aestetix> one of them
07:39 < aestetix> he has a bunch of them
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09:36 <@dasunt> Pure capitalism fails.
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09:36 <@dasunt> This is Adam Smith level stuff.
09:36 <@dasunt> Pure Communism may also be a failure.  I'd have to think of the failure modes though.
09:37 < xray> Anything involving people has the potential to fail
09:37 <@dasunt> Debating one or another is silly.  It's like debating fire.  Fire is useful, but we don't set the world on fire because of it.
09:37 < xray> first answer the question: are people basically good or bad?
09:37 <@dasunt> Doesn't matter.
09:37 <@dasunt> Capitalism doesn't care about good or bad.
09:38 < xray> I does when you start enforcing your philosophy in action
09:38 <@dasunt> Nor does communism, or socialism, etc.
09:38 < xray> all systems involve people
09:38 <@Dagmar> Pretty much _all_ the "pure" economic systems we've dreamt up have somewhat obvious failure state
09:39 < xray> therefore basing a system of control on a false premise will inherently never work
09:39 <@Dagmar> They have these failure states because we are actually defining an extremist system
09:39 <@Dagmar> "Pure capitalism" is about as possible as "pure good".
09:39 <@Dagmar> ...or "pure evil"
09:39 <@Dagmar> Same goes for communism, socialism, etc
09:39 <@dasunt> xray: Look up Adam Smith's critique of a pure capitalist economy.  It's not a "people are moral" or "people are immoral", it's a "this system can reward private entities as the expense of the public good."
09:40 < xray> any system comprised of people can do that
09:40 <@Dagmar> No formal system can adequately encompass _humanity_ without breaking off at the edges
09:41 < xray> ultimately a government can only govern a people who govern themselves (self control)
09:41 <@dasunt> xray: A system composed of perfect robots would also fail under a capitalism model.
09:42 < xray> I assume you are trying to make a rational point, but I'm failing to see it.
09:42 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Depends upon what you mean by failure, though.
09:43 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Long term survival of the system.
09:43 <@Corydon76> If you mean that things break down due to problems like Tragedy of the Commons, you're right.
09:43 <@Corydon76> If you mean that the system will eventually fail, you're wrong.
09:44 <@Dagmar> I mean the system will break the people
09:44 <@dasunt> xray: Responding to a critique of a flawed system by saying that all systems that involve people are flawed may be technically correct, but doesn't address the flaws in the system.
09:44 <@Corydon76> Systems rarely fail because all entities are participating with full faith in the system.  Systems generally fail because participants actively attempt to undermine the system, to gain a perceived advantage
09:44 < xray> That isn't what I was saying
09:45 <@Dagmar> "pure" systems fail because they don't adequately provide for human behaviour
09:47 <@Corydon76> Pure capitalism attempts to harness that inherent desire of humans to undermine the system to gain a perceived advantage
09:47 <@dasunt> xray: Maybe I'm misunderstanding then.
09:47 <@Corydon76> Where it breaks down is that not all humans are equally skilled in attempting to undermine the system
09:48 < xray> Think of systems as a calculus formula. You may be using the correct formula but have plugged in an invalid value such (for extremely large values of 2, 2 + 2 can equal 5). No matter how much you debate the formula (which is the correct formula) you will never come to any agreement because one of the underlying values plugged into the formula isn't
09:48 < xray> . Until you discuss the underlying values you will simply talk in circles.
09:48 <@dasunt> I'd also offer the externalities problem (which I believe you've mentioned), and the problem that capitalism tends to fail to account for the long term as systematic weaknesses.
09:48 < xray> One of the best things about my cell phone is the auto reject list.
09:49 < xray> When I get a call form a vendor I can can tell because when I say hello there is this really long pause while it switches me to an operator.
09:49 <@dasunt> While in competition with other systems, I don't think capitalism is as efficient.
09:49 < xray> I just hang up and add them to the reject list.
09:49 <@dasunt> I should say, as efficient as it could be.
09:50 <@Corydon76> dasunt: of course it's not efficient.  Capitalism isn't designed to be efficient.
09:50 <@Corydon76> But for any economic system to be efficient, you have to displace the human tendency to want to gain an advantage
09:50 < xray> Engineering social systems without first recognizing underlying values simply results in wild oscillation.
09:51 <@dasunt> In a hypothetical system of robots, I still think you'd get some oscillation.
09:52 <@Corydon76> Look at unions, for example:  the striking workforce is designed to put the managers of the company in pain sufficient to get them to meet labor's demands.  And management tries the reverse, to starve out the workers, without starving themselves.
09:53 < xray> And robots are relevant because?
09:53 <@dasunt> There's something called the "Pork Cycle", which is a market oscillating back and forth due to everyone acting rationally.
09:53 <@Corydon76> An efficient system would never have the workers striking in the first place, because it hurts both sides.
09:53 < xray> Both responses are aberant
09:54 <@Dagmar> That's because the one side doesn't care about the other side
09:54 < xray> Great in theory but doesn't take into account the underlying values systems of people
09:54 <@Dagmar> i.e., management does not consider whether or not the exchange of services (labor) for goods (paycheck) is fair or balanced.
09:54 < xray> just blocked another vendor
09:55 < xray> almost as bad as political calls. I block them too.
09:55 <@Dagmar> This is where capitalism fails... A lack of consideration given to fairness.
09:55 < xray> Are you speaking of all individuals or a mythical general case.
09:55 <@Dagmar> It causes the overall inefficiency.
09:55 <@Corydon76> I agree that capitalism is absolutely painful and creates inequitable situations and is completely unfair.  HOWEVER, it's also the best system we've yet come up with.
09:55 <@Dagmar> No, it's just the system we're currently attempting to use.
09:56 <@Dagmar> Lots of different systems have succeeded at different scales, but no "pure" system based on extremes is sustainable indefinitely
09:56 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: I don't think anybody has come up with a better system yet.
09:57 <@Dagmar> Anarchism "works" just as well, but it fails because some people are assholes
09:57 < xray> Define works
09:57 <@Corydon76> https://richardlangworth.com/worst-form-of-government
09:58 <@Dagmar> Socialism "works" but it fails because it provides little incentive to improve
09:58 <@Corydon76> I'd argue that capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all of the others which have been tried.
09:58 <@Dagmar> Communism "works" but fails for the same reason as Socialism
09:58 <@Dagmar> Too _much_ emphasis on fair in those two
09:59 <@Dagmar> Too _little_ emphasis on fair in capitalism.
09:59 <@Dagmar> ...and by "too much" and "too little" I am specifically setting those values at 100% and 0%.  Extremes.
09:59 <@Dagmar> They're pure models and they need to be tempered.
09:59 <@Corydon76> Communism _does_ work in extremely small groups, but you can't expand it without introducing systemic failures
09:59 < xray> do not confuse fairness and jsutice
10:00 < xray> justice
10:00 <@Dagmar> Not considering "justice" at all
10:00 <@Dagmar> These are economic systems, not moral frameworks
10:00 < xray> Then you are destined for an epic fail
10:00 <@Corydon76> Now we're getting into equality of opportunity versus equality of result
10:00 < xray> Like I said, any system that ignores underlying values is destined to fail.
10:05 <@dasunt> xray: The robots analogy is to remove the human element, and examine the system's fundamental flaws, instead of the human-induced flaws.
10:06 < xray> That's is a flaw in reasoning. You must take into account humans and their flaws.
10:06 < xray> and virtues
10:06 <@Corydon76> dasunt: But robots can be programmed to resolve the inherent problems, such as with Tragedy of the Commons
10:06 < xray> Who programmed them? Humans. They will be flawed.
10:06 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Sure they can.  But if you are programming robots to resolve problems inherent in the system, then the robots are no longer engaged in that system.
10:07 <@Corydon76> dasunt: nonsense.  You're eliminating the inherent flaws in human greed
10:07 < ^020d> xray: Are you really touching on the game theory solution where total cooperation works for the greatest good?
10:08 <@dasunt> Corydon76: How is tragedy of the commons not a rational result of pure capitalism?
10:09 < xray> No
10:10 <@Corydon76> dasunt: weren't you talking about long term planning a little while ago?
10:10 < xray> It's a result of completely ignoring the underlying value systems.
10:10 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Yes.  I said capitalism tends to have a problem with long term planning.
10:10 <@Corydon76> Robots can be programmed to see the irrationality of such a tragedy and avoid it, still while maximizing profit... because maximizing profit becomes a long term goal
10:11 < xray> I'm looking for a video that kind of blows a giant smoking hole in your theory.
10:11 <@Corydon76> dasunt: that's not a problem of capitalism, but a failure of humans to see beyond short term goals
10:12 <@Corydon76> The essential problem is the assumption that humans act rationally.  They do not.
10:12 <@dasunt> Corydon76: How is the tragedy of the commons irrational to individual actors?
10:12 < xray> here ya go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4
10:12 < PigBot`> Title: Deadly Truth of General AI? - Computerphile - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/prdy4bd
10:12 <@Corydon76> dasunt: tragedy of the commons ensures that long term profit is not maximized
10:13 <@dasunt> Corydon76: I don't believe the definition of pure capitalism is to maximize long term profit.
10:13 <@Corydon76> So rationally, there should be a desire to avoid such a circumstance
10:13 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Pure capitalism leaves out the short-term or long-term values.
10:13 <@Dagmar> It's to maximize profit for individual economic units, separate from all other units
10:14 <@Dagmar> Long-term or short-term is up to each unit
10:14 <@dasunt> I'll also note, that for a really long definition of "long term", profit appears to drop to zero.
10:14 <@Corydon76> But robots, rationally would attempt to maximize profit over the long term
10:14 <@Dagmar> Robots would not assume that outside entities would share their goals and therefore seek to eliminate them as competition
10:14 < xray> The path to failure is simple: 1. over simplify the problem. 2. find a solution and declare it is the answer to everything. 3. Implement the solution. 4. lather rinse repeat
10:14 <@dasunt> Maximizing total profits across society is not a feature of capitalism as I understand it.
10:15 <@Dagmar> ...because capitalist robots would be able to face the fact that other parties are interested only in their own goals.
10:15 <@Dagmar> Humans get this wooly idea that capitalism somehow means not fuckign everyone else over
10:15 < xray> Yes your robot solution is correct given your totally impossible mythical perfect robot that we actually can't create.
10:15 <@Dagmar> Capitalism doesn't have anything to do with that
10:15 <@Corydon76> dasunt: no, but ensuring you don't overfish because it affects your own future profits is a rational behavior
10:15 < aestetix> I believe "capitalist robots" prefer to be referred to by their proper name, "Randroids"
10:16 <@dasunt> Randroids claim they are capitalist, but they are really just hypocrits.  :p
10:16 <@Dagmar> Overfishing is a natural result of _multiple_ parties working only in their own best interests
10:17 <@Dagmar> For a single party, not overfishing would be perfectly reasonable in a capitalist system
10:17 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: yes, but if all capitalist robots are running future scenarios, they will all conclude that there is a poor game result in overfishing
10:17 <@Dagmar> When multiple parties are involved, the parties that overfish will _still_ collect more fish than the other parties
10:17 <@Dagmar> Whether or not the total eventually drops to zero means nothing
10:17 <@dasunt> Corydon76: Not overfishing only makes sense if you cannot adapt.  E.g. if you can overfish tuna to economic non-viability, then salmon, then herring, etc, and still have something left to fish for the foreseeable future, then overfishing makes perfect sense.
10:18 < ^020d> North Atlantic Cod were nearly wiped out from overfishing til the govts made it illegal so the fish could get their numbers up again.
10:18 <@Dagmar> If they're following capitalist tenets. they'll know that overfishing is the _only_ response
10:18 <@Corydon76> Yes, because individual humans don't think of the long term result
10:18 <@Dagmar> The goal is to maximize one's own profits.
10:18 <@Corydon76> Robots, however, are much better at running scenarios and picking the best game result
10:19 <@Dagmar> Robots would have to step away from pure self-interest to not overfish
10:19 <@Dagmar> ...but then that wouldn't be capitalist
10:20 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: sure, it would.  You're thinking that robots would selfishly pursue only short term goals, while neglecting long term goals
10:20 <@Dagmar> They would, because there's no long-term or short term.
10:20 <@Dagmar> Last one to catch a fish wins
10:20 <@dasunt> So what if the robot's long term goal is to invest in another area, and is willing to fish in the short term for seed money?
10:20 <@Dagmar> Period.
10:20 <@dasunt> Why should that robot not overfish?
10:20 < dfused> Comma,
10:21 < ^020d> I'm bored, y'all making me watch the new SHIELD.
10:21 <@Corydon76> Again, you're imbuing human characteristics to these robots
10:21 <@Dagmar> If they limit their fishing operations, other entities following pure capitalist goals will catch more fish
10:21 <@Corydon76> The whole point of this exercise is to remove the human irrationality
10:21 <@dasunt> Corydon76: But is overfishing irrational?
10:21 <@Dagmar> Nope, I'm considering that as robots they would understand that they can't control what the other parties do
10:21 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Yes, it is
10:21 <@dasunt> Corydon76: How?
10:22 <@Dagmar> Other parties will be pursuing those same selfish goals
10:22 <@Corydon76> Overfishing is irrational because it affects your future profits
10:22 <@Dagmar> None will be doing so "perfectly".  There will be attrition of the resource.
10:23 <@Dagmar> Collaboration would not be capitalism
10:23 <@Corydon76> What you're saying is that capitalism isn't capitalism without human irrationality
10:23 <@dasunt> Corydon76: What if it increases your future profits?  Overfishing now allows more profits in the short term, allowing you to buy more boats, fish more, make more profits, then transition to fish farms down the road when the fishing stocks crash.
10:23 <@Dagmar> No, it's not.
10:24 <@Dagmar> If you don't understand the argument, don't attempt to paraphrase it into something simpler.  This will _always_ fail.
10:24 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: then, for you, the robot scenario isn't helpful
10:24 <@Dagmar> The robot scenario apparently imbues human motivation into robots, or psychic powers
10:25 <@Dagmar> let's say there are five parties fishing a fixed pool of fish
10:25 <@Dagmar> NONE are capable of accurately predicting how many fish will be produced by the body of fish
10:25 <@Dagmar> They will only be able to guess
10:25 <@Dagmar> Those that guess higher will catch more fish, ergo they will gain an advantage over the rest
10:26 <@Dagmar> Over the long term, that advantage will render the other parties obsolete
10:26 < dfused> good thing the ppl building the govts will all come to you guys to develop what will work.  =P
10:27 <@Dagmar> Capitalism simply doesn't take into account the welfare of other parties
10:27 <@Dagmar> Humans do, but capitalism is a pure construct.
10:27 <@Dagmar> Separated from _human interests_ in the form of a "corporate entity" the result will naturally be predatory
10:27 <@Dagmar> _Parasitic_
10:28 <@Dagmar> It has to be tempered with both communist ideals, and socialist ideals.
10:29 <@Dagmar> When we have _actually done this_ the United States has prospered _wildly_
10:29 <@Dagmar> People were able to acquire resources to improve their lot, people were able to acquire resources to produce more resources, actual wealth was created in abundance
10:30 <@Dagmar> Since we're leaning more and more heavily towards pure capitalism, mainly it's just corporations that can do this now
10:30 <@Dagmar> We've literally got multinationals bribing government "representatives" into _murdering_ people
10:31 <@Dagmar> ...because bombs and munitions are a consumable resource and produce profit for those multinationals.
10:31 <@Dagmar> Parasitic and predatory.
10:32 <@dasunt> I prefer "amoral".  If the company could profit off of selling vaccines to the same people, it would do so.
10:33 <@Dagmar> "amoral" is the exact word, actually.
10:33 <@Dagmar> Morals don't figure into the equation, one way or the other.
10:33 <@dasunt> dfused: I only concern myself with failure modes.  Success is boring.  :p
10:33 < dfused> huh?
10:33 <@Dagmar> ...but the results are parasitic (decreasing resources of other parties) and predatory (consuming other parties entirely).
10:33 <@Dagmar> s/entirely/destructively/
10:34 <@dasunt> dfused: >   dfused> good thing the ppl building the govts will all come to you guys to develop what will work.  =P
10:34 < dfused> oh...sorry, I got distracted by lines upon lines upon lines of Dagmar
10:34 <@Dagmar> Morals are a _human_ consideration
10:34 < dfused> one day he'll write a book....sell it on amazon
10:34 <@Dagmar> I'm pretty sur eI've spent more time thinking on this than any ten TN senators
10:35 <@Dagmar> Possibly more than 20-30 of them
10:35 <@dasunt> Dagmar: Aren't TN senators too busy looking for bribes^Wdonations to think about the actual effect of their legislation?
10:35 <@Dagmar> dfused: Let me put this to you then... "They shot Huey Long for less"
10:36 < dfused> if you can find ONE politician that has actually thought about srs govt concerns w/o it being tainted by concern over votes/$$ I'll be flat fucking amazed.
10:36 < dfused> Huey Lewis?  nah he's still alive
10:36 <@Dagmar> The "effect of their legislation" is that they get more bribe money
10:36 < dfused> and has great music
10:36 <@dasunt> It's the news!
10:36 < dfused> lol
10:37 < dfused> I still need to watch dr strange.
10:37 <@dasunt> Wasn't it K`Tetch_ that said in the UK, the MPs are limited to spending £30k on their campaigns?
10:39 < dfused> yeah
10:40 < dfused> and have to file weekly reports on it
10:44 <@dasunt> So, horribly off-topic from our usual economics and politics discussion, and maybe not appropriate for 2600, but should I learn Java just for Android development?  :p
10:45 < aestetix> Ok so
10:46 < aestetix> I'm reading this reddit thread about debt issues
10:46 <@dasunt> I want a topographical map app that doesn't suck.  It can't be hard to put together.
10:46 < aestetix> And I realized that I never hear europeans complaining about being in debt
10:46 < aestetix> It seems that here, if you can't afford something, you do without it. None of the credit card nonsense.
10:46 < aestetix> oh sorry dasunt
10:47 <@dasunt> aestetix: Europeans can still have mortgages, from what I know.
10:47 < aestetix> dasunt: that's a bit different. That's an investment.
10:47 < aestetix> Although the nonsense investments of buying a mortgage for a McMansion you can't afford ...
10:47 <@dasunt> I think they can have some student loans, but nothing like the US.
10:48 < aestetix> Depends on the country
10:48 < aestetix> But I mean tuition here is like 100 EUR a year
10:48 < aestetix> maybe.
11:16 <@dasunt> The package I am tracking is getting shipped back to the city where it was on Friday.
11:16 <@dasunt> But this time, Fedex is bored with it, so it handed it off to the USPS.
11:21 <@dasunt> LOL, reading a forum post where the HOA came after the guy bought his house, and keeps sending him notices even though he never joined the HOA.
11:22 <@dasunt> "I think we annoyed them because christmas decorations are not allowed in the yard.  We aren't part of the HOA so we Chevy Chased it up and took the christmas decorations+lights to 11."
11:24 <@dasunt> The post itself is what right does the HOA have to tow their vehicles.  Someone pointed out that the HOA may technically own the road.  Another response pointed out that they could always park on the grass in their front yard.
11:26 < dfused> RV in front yard with Eddie. ..."the shitters full!"
11:28 <@dasunt> This is why I'm in the perfect spot to have a fight with the neighbors one day over useless shit.
11:29 <@dasunt> Not only do I consider my yard and house as places to be used, instead of places just to make look pretty, but I'm also busy enough not to care about minor things like dandelions in the front yard or that the grass is turning brown because we haven't gotten rain in two weeks.
11:30 < dfused> I live in teh middle of nowhere... I cut the grass when I think its a possible hazard for snakes to ambush me
11:31 <@dasunt> I cut the grass because it's easier to pick up dog poop.
11:32 < dfused> bio land mines are the worst
11:32 <@dasunt> I'm just not into the "mimic a golf course" look.
11:32 <@dasunt> It just looks weird to me.
11:38 < ^020d> dasunt: On Java for Android, what other languages do you already know?
11:42 < aestetix> you know
11:42 < aestetix> as much as I hate Bill O'Reilly
11:42 < aestetix> I kind of hope Trump appoints him into the white house to spite the liberal media
11:45 < dfused> replace sicer with bill
11:45 < dfused> spicer
11:45 < aestetix> that would be hilarious
11:47 < dfused> I would love to see him go all crazy again at the podium "FUCK IT, we'll do it live!"
11:53 < aestetix> It's just
11:54 < aestetix> that's what happens when you punch people without thinking of the consequences
11:54 < aestetix> O'Reilly is currently at Fox, but he's good friends with Donald Trump. And they're going to make him a martyr.
11:54 < aestetix> The profound stupidity amazes me.
11:56 <@dasunt> ^020d: C, some C++, some others.
11:57 <@dasunt> Spicer with O'Reilly would be entertaining.
11:57 < aestetix> It's like "I think this horses's foot is oppressing me, so I'm going to stab it with a spoon"
11:57 <@dasunt> s/^/Replacing /g
11:57 < aestetix> And then they act all surprised when they lose their teeth
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14:53 < K`Tetch_> 11:47:38 «@dasunt» I think they can have some student loans, but nothing like the US. <-- yep, I was the first year of loans in the UK (fuck you blair) and i ended up amasing about $6k over 4 years
14:54 < K`Tetch_> and to repay, it's done at PAYE (pay as you earn, how the taxes etc. are done) at [for me anyway] 9% of anything I earn over £10k/year
14:54 < K`Tetch_> so if i earn 11k/year, its 9% of 1k, if I earn 30k, it's 9% of 20k
15:18 < aestetix> K`Tetch_: is there a political party that just hates everyone?
15:18 < aestetix> I might join that one
15:47 <@dasunt> Voluntary human extinction movement?
15:48 < ^020d> Why vote for the lesser evil?
15:57 < ^020d> https://cthulhuforamerica.com
15:58 < PigBot`> Title: Cthulhu for President of the United States of America 2020 (at cthulhuforamerica.com) http://tinyurl.com/hdg7rt6
16:03 -!- TheDukh [~thedukh@2607:fcc8:ac80:d900:2476:4fd0:5b44:3c0d] has quit []
16:25 < K`Tetch_> aestetix - the uk has the BNP, that was kinda like that, but its now gone, because UKP took its spot
16:30 <@dasunt> Didn't UKIP fall apart?
16:30 <@dasunt> Or is UKP something different?
16:33 < K`Tetch_> BNP fell apart, UKP is getting there, kinda, although they had a surge after the brexit vote (they were formed by conservatives that fled the tory party after the 92 maastrict treaty)
16:34 < K`Tetch_> Farage was the leader until recently, then there was an actual fight between some of the others, now my MEP is the leader
16:34 < K`Tetch_> Paul 'serial bullshitter' nutall, who did one of the biggest cardinal sins when runnin for an MP byelection a few weeks ago - he claimed he was at Hillsborogh
16:36 <@dasunt> Wait, what does the EP do again?
16:36 < K`Tetch_> hillsborough is the one thing that both halfs of Liverpool can agree on
16:36 <@dasunt> I know what the NIP and SP does.
16:36 <@dasunt> Does the EP have any power?
16:36 < K`Tetch_> European parliament? they vote on matters brought up in the EU
16:36 <@dasunt> Oh, my bad.  I thought it was English parliament.
16:36 < K`Tetch_> the commision drafts resolutions, the parliament votes on them, if approved they're left to the member states to implement
16:37 < K`Tetch_> there's no english parliament
16:37 < K`Tetch_> there's only one parliament in fact, the scottish, welsh and NI entities are 'assemblies'
16:38 < K`Tetch_> althoguh scotland, in their bid to be different as always, do call heirs parliament officially
16:38 < K`Tetch_> (there's 3 sets of laws in the UK, england/wales, scotland, and NI
16:38 < K`Tetch_> scotland also has their own scottish pounds too
16:39 < K`Tetch_> you'd think, in the 414 years scotland has been in the union, it might have fixed t hat
16:40 <@dasunt> Meh, it just makes it easier for Scottish independence.
16:40 < K`Tetch_> yes and no...
16:42 < K`Tetch_> be kinda like texas seceeding
16:46 < K`Tetch_> anyone interested in a lifetime vpn subscription for $40?
17:07 < aestetix> K`Tetch_: so what do you think of Macron
17:07 < aestetix> since he's likely the next president of france
17:07 < K`Tetch_> haven't looked into the france stuff
17:08 < K`Tetch_> I've been focusing on a few select topics in the US and UK (net neutrality/FCC, and Brexit, and trying to get some books written
17:08 < K`Tetch_> now with the UK election, I've offered my help back to the ppuk to assist
17:09 < K`Tetch_> I've set myself a hard deadline fo June 1 for my discworld book, which means i have to get an F**king move on
17:12 < K`Tetch_> I even started taking my add medication again
17:13 <@rattle> Regarding egress/transit VPNs.  This is what you want to be using.  Every other option is stupid.  https://github.com/trailofbits/algo
17:13 < PigBot`> Title: GitHub - trailofbits/algo: Set up a personal IPSEC VPN in the cloud (at github.com) http://tinyurl.com/h9gtpcv
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17:15 < K`Tetch_> whats your thoughts aestetix?
17:21 <@dasunt> K`Tetch_: No, Texas seceeding would be bloody stupid.
17:21 <@dasunt> And unlikely to occur.
17:22 <@dasunt> Scottish Independence may be bloody stupid as well (depends what form it takes), but may be likely to occur.
17:37 < K`Tetch_> true enough
17:37 < K`Tetch_> but it's an analogy that's close enough
--- Log closed Thu Apr 20 00:00:29 2017