--- Log opened Tue Apr 04 00:00:02 2017
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01:16 < aestetix> wow
01:16 < aestetix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9MOyME7ijg
01:16 < PigBot`> Title: Bill Maher Shreds Hillary Clinton to Pieces -You Had Your Shot and You F*cked Up - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) http://tinyurl.com/m46a5bl
01:16 < aestetix> rattle: I just lost a lot of respect for CAP
01:19 < aestetix> If the head of CAP is spewing that kind of nonsense, it makes sense why Hillary lost so badly.
06:13 <@rattle> Don't expect me to defend Neera..  Heh
06:16 <@rattle> A panel with Santorum, Hayden, and Tanden.  Wow.  What an amazing recipe for a cluster fuck.
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09:53 < aestetix> rattle: yeah I gotta admit
09:53 < aestetix> It's really not easy to make me side with both Santorum and Maher at the same time
09:56 <@rattle> I'm fatigued by my assumptions of basic human decency repeatedly being proven wrong.  Exposure to a nerve agent is one of the worst and most painful possible ways to die.  Is this a new normal now?  A dude in an airport, some folks in Syria, no big thing?
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09:57 <@rattle> For fucks sake.  After the first world war people seemed to agree that chemical attacks were beneath humanity.  I guess that period was the good old days..
09:57 < aestetix> for everyone but Germany
10:00 < aestetix> I just don't get it. The democrats keep on falling for the same bait over and over and over again.
10:03 <@Dagmar> Not everyone is on the same page about how humanity as a whole is supposed to decide what is the minimum level of civility
10:03 <@Dagmar> Those are the people who see a can of sarin and think, "Hey that could be useful"
10:04 <@rattle> If I recall correctly, the German's actually invented nerve agents.  The Japanese were the only ones to use them heavily in warfare in modern history.  Though, there are some fringe cases here and there post wii..
10:05 <@Dagmar> They had kind of a "no limits" approach to warfare
10:05 <@Dagmar> ...which is curious considering how long they refused to allow guns on their island and why.
10:05 < aestetix> but I mean for fucks sake
10:06 <@Corydon76> Problem, though.  The chemical agents are specifically banned for warfare.  They are NOT banned for police actions, like crowd control at riots, because the US specifically uses chemical agents for that purpose
10:06 < aestetix> saying that Sean Spicer telling a reporter to stop shaking their head amounts to such grave abuse of sexism and racism that he needs to resign.... what planet are these idiots living on
10:06 <@rattle> I think the biggest post WWII uses of nerve agents in warfare were by the Russians in Afghanistan, the Cubans against Angola, and a few other incidents all in Africa..
10:06 < aestetix> I mean disagree with the guy politically, that's one thing
10:07 < aestetix> but god
10:07 <@Corydon76> I believe Syria did not use it against combatants, but against the population
10:07 <@Corydon76> Y'know, the way the US does
10:07 <@Dagmar> Bloody savages
10:07 < xray> Iraq used them as well
10:07 <@Dagmar> Corydon76: That's only against political protestors
10:07 <@rattle> Yea..  Iraq against Iran..
10:07 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: I believe the police are allowed to us it against ANY "unruly" crowd
10:08 < xray> and against their own people
10:08 <@Dagmar> Corydon76: That's going to come back to bite them in the ass eventually
10:09 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: after 50 years of being allowed to use it, I have to question the use of the word "eventually"
10:09 <@Dagmar> Part of the reason cultures develop a low-water mark for savagery is because with cultural differences, what one party sees as a parity response may easily represent an extreme escalation to the other
10:09 <@rattle> To be fair, tear gas is an area denial thing..  Nerve agents are a you-fall-down-spasming-in-extreme-pain-and-die sorta thing.  Different.
10:09 < aestetix> rattle: speaking as someone who has been tear gassed, it sucked
10:09 <@Corydon76> If police used it against peaceful protesters in the 60s, in the 80s, in 00s... Pretty much every generation, they're not facing any consequences
10:10 <@Dagmar> Cops use tear gas on innocent women and babies, radicals grow some soy beans and cook up another form of aerosolized nightmare
10:10 <@rattle> aestetix: I've had the treatment before.  Yes, it sucks.  It's not a nerve agent.  Whole different league.
10:10 < aestetix> Yeah. I was about to say that
10:10 < aestetix> And tear gas can be counteracted easily
10:10 <@Corydon76> rattle: tear gas, though, is a chemical agent banned for use in warfare by the same convention of which nerve agents are banned
10:10 <@Corydon76> Which is precisely why I brought it up
10:11 <@Dagmar> It's mainly a matter of police distancing themselves from the cruelty of the act by "following orders" which shifts the moral blame to someone else, and "regular folks" just waving signs and yellings know not to shit where they sleep
10:11 <@rattle> I'm not disputing that or defending the use of tear gas, but it must be acknowledged that it's in a whole different league than deploying a nerve agent.
10:11 <@Dagmar> You have to be a sociopath, an asshole, or fairly desperate to use that kind of stuff as an individual
10:11 <@Corydon76> I don't disagree that it's awful for them to be used.  I'm asking whether it might simply be a loophole which the Syrian president has found
10:11 <@Dagmar> ...or just a psychopath
10:12 <@Dagmar> I doubt anyone using those cares if they're got a "loophole" or not
10:12 <@Dagmar> They're weapons of indiscriminate mass-harm
10:12 <@Dagmar> ALl they care about is that they're not on the recieving end of them
10:13 <@Corydon76> Yes, but we care about whether there's a loophole in international law, because it could mean the difference between the UN taking over the country and the UN going, "Our hands are tied."
10:13 <@Dagmar> Like, let's take Israel for instance
10:13 <@rattle> The sheer cruelty of deploying a nerve agent is like it's own category of thing.  I assure you, you would prefer being burned alive than exposed to sarin or vx.
10:13 <@Dagmar> Talking about peace to the world, meanwhile, shelling entire neighborhoods into rubble because of religious bullshit
10:14 <@Dagmar> All the people issuing the orders care about is that they're not the ones having their homes blown up.
10:15 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: yeah, but that's more along the lines that the Israelis don't want to commit troops to the area to route out the fighters
10:15 <@Corydon76> So they just carpet bomb the area and call it a day
10:15 <@Dagmar> If they had to commit troops to the area, it would cost money and possibly risk their own lives
10:15 <@Dagmar> Way cheaper to just blow shit up at a distance when the enemy can't even pretend to fight back
10:17 <@Corydon76> Precisely
10:18 <@Corydon76> Which is also why the enemy prefers to obtain short range missiles, so they can fire back at the Israelis
10:18 <@Dagmar> It's also a lot easier to pretend to the rest of the world you're not actually doing that if you're guaranteed to leave none of your own people's bodies behind
10:18 <@Dagmar> THat's the one place where I really wish someone would just get a nuke
10:18 <@Dagmar> ...so they can all get a good look at how unacceptable what they're doing is.
10:18 <@Corydon76> The Israelis already have nukes
10:19 <@Dagmar> Someone shoudl go ahead and pop one off then
10:19 <@Corydon76> They're just aware that using it would be suicide on the world stage
10:19 <@Dagmar> Clearly they're still living in the fantasy world where nukes are just "big bombs" that only destroy a few square blocks at a go
10:20 <@Corydon76> No, they're aware that if they use a nuke, support for their regime across the world would evaporate overnight
10:20 <@Corydon76> And they depend upon foreign aid to keep up their defenses
10:20 <@rattle> Wait a minute.  You're advocating nuking Israel?
10:21 < aestetix> The 0 state solution
10:21 <@Dagmar> No, I'm anticipating one of those idiots doing it to themselves
10:21 <@Corydon76> He's advocating Israel nuking someone else
10:21 <@Dagmar> That place is fucking *small*
10:22 <@Dagmar> One would ruin _everyone's_ day
10:22 <@Corydon76> It's small, but it's not THAT small
10:22 <@rattle> I'm going to laugh at the zero state solution thing, and ignore the rest of this conversation.
10:22 <@Corydon76> They could nuke Tehran, for example, and they'd escape nuclear fallout
10:22 <@Dagmar> Then everyone who survives would maybe have a very clear idea that NUKES ARE NOT FOR PLAYING WITH and all six of them could have dinner on the weekends at Pizza Hut
10:22 <@Corydon76> Russia, however, would be fucked
10:23 <@Corydon76> Dagmar: we figured that out after WWII and Nagasaki
10:23 <@Corydon76> Nukes are good for MAD
10:24 <@Dagmar> Frankly I prefer Qadaffi's method... just _saying_ you have them
10:24 <@Dagmar> Talk shit all you like
10:24 <@Corydon76> That method did not work all that well for Saddam Hussein after the first Gulf War.
10:25 <@Dagmar> That's because Dubya was fucking gullible
10:25 <@Corydon76> The problem was that the neocons in the US believed his bullshit and took over
10:25 <@Dagmar> All it takes is a big enough idiot
10:25 <@Dagmar> We were lucky that time
10:26 <@Corydon76> Cheney was the biggest idiot on that one.  Bush knew he couldn't possibly understand, so he turned to Cheney for advice.  "Slam dunk", remember?
10:26 <@Corydon76> All the CIA analysts were telling Bush that Hussein had no WMDs
10:27 <@Corydon76> And yes, it feels weird to be defending Bush on this.
10:31 <@Dagmar> Chenhy wasn't an idiot
10:31 <@Dagmar> That man stood to make a buck for his buddies
10:32 <@Dagmar> A whole lot of money got spent on contractors for that
10:39 < dfused> teh wheels on the bus go round and round....round and round.....round and round...
10:40 <@dasunt> I'll occasionally defend the Shrub.
10:41 <@dasunt> Hell, once or twice I've agreed with Scalia.  Which makes me feel very weird.
10:53 < aestetix> dasunt: as wierd with agreeing with both Santorum and Bill Maher at the same time?
10:53 < aestetix> It's rare enough those two ever agree
10:53 < aestetix> But for me to also agree with them
10:53 < aestetix> it has to be something deeply fundamentally obvious like "the earth is round"
10:53 <@dasunt> I'd have to pay attention to Santorum to agree with him.
10:53 < aestetix> lol
10:55 <@dasunt> Speaking of him, has he been found in a gay sex scandal yet?
10:55 < aestetix> haha
10:56 <@dasunt> He does seem to have an obsession with homosexual men that is unusual for a well-adjusted heterosexual male.
10:56 < aestetix> He's also vocally pro-life which is odd because his wife had a partial birth abortion
10:57 <@dasunt> I know abortion workers.  People come in all the time that are pro-life.  You have to understand, their circumstances are different.
11:04  * dasunt shrugs.
11:05 < dfused> you're right
11:05 <@dasunt> Okay, here's what I don't get about delivery drones - wouldn't a delivery drone blimp make more sense?
11:07 <@dasunt> A lighter-than-air gas provides the lifting power, saving energy and increasing either capacity or delivery distance.  Speed probably is good enough for most things.
11:07 < dfused> and fantastic opportunities for m to try and recreate hindenburg type scnearios..woo!   target practice!
11:07 < dfused> lol
11:08 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Remember how those vehicles ascend and descend:  release gas or release ballast
11:09 <@Corydon76> I'd say it's cheaper simply to run a rotor for lift and descent, not to mention that you REALLY don't want to be releasing ballast in urban areas
11:10 <@dasunt> Corydon76: But there's ballast already - the package.
11:11 <@Corydon76> Beyond the cost of the material, most of the time, it's going to be lead, which poisons bird life when they inevitably eat it, not to mention when it falls on people
11:11 < xray> another problem with blimps is the size to lift. Once they are big enough to lift the load they are large enough that wind becomes a real problem
11:11 <@Corydon76> Want some lead pellets on your child's ice cream cone?
11:13 < xray> converting from vertical to horizontal flight is a better power conservation option without the wind drag and they will be faster
11:13 <@dasunt> xray: That seems to be a valid limitation.  Hydrogen is roughly 1 kg of lift per cubic meter.
11:13 < xray> not to mention flamable
11:14 <@Corydon76> dasunt: Have you ever launched a balloon with a size of approximately 1 cubic meter?
11:14 < xray> yes
11:14 <@Corydon76> I have helped with such a launch before, including the hydrogen gas
11:14 <@dasunt> No I haven't, but 1 cubic meter seems bulky, which is why I said it seems to be a valid limitation.
11:15 <@Corydon76> It was rather fun being anchored to a grounded copper rod, while trying to hold a large weather balloon steady while it was being filled with hydrogen gas
11:17 <@dasunt> Perfect time for a cigarette break!
11:18 < K`Tetch> release gas or balast? how about pumped gas storage? much how a helium tank doesn't float away...
11:19 <@dasunt> K`Tetch: I thought about that, but 10L of hydrogen is 1g, and H2 is $1/kg.
11:19 < xray> you can but then your mass goes up and the size of the balloon has to increase which increases drag
11:19 < xray> there is no free lunch
11:19 < xray> free launch either
11:19 <@dasunt> So for 1 m^3, it's $0.10/hydrogen.
11:20 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch: you're much better off not having to stow a tank
11:20 <@dasunt> I don't think pumped storage would be worth it.
11:20 < xray> you really can't beat fixed wing for lift to eight to power
11:21 < xray> weight to power
11:21 < K`Tetch> right, but I'm just thinking that since bouyency a function of density be it in water or air, then having balast tanks, much like a sub, to trim - might not have the fastest climb or descent, but when you drop your payload your weight will drop anyway, so you'd need to reduce lift
11:21 < dfused> xray : typing is hard stuff man....
11:21 < xray> apparentlu
11:21 < xray> gaaaaahhhhh
11:21 < dfused> lol
11:21 < xray> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter_than_air
11:21 < PigBot`> Title: Lighter than air - Wikipedia (at en.wikipedia.org) http://tinyurl.com/nyukr9y
11:23 < K`Tetch> but would you be using hydrogen, or helium
11:23 <@Corydon76> K`Tetch: yeah, but now your balloon needs to be so large that it probably won't be able to hit anything smaller than a front lawn
11:23 <@Corydon76> So much for delivery to the doorstep
11:24 < K`Tetch> whats the outgassing rate of helium too?
11:24 < K`Tetch> or hydrogen
11:24 < xray> or if there was a better battery (power storage)
11:24 < K`Tetch> this just means I've got to really stop by the airship races at dragoncon this year
11:24 <@Corydon76> Businesses would probably need to use helium.  There's way too much liability in trying to use a flammable gas like hydrogen, and helium has half the lifting power
11:25 <@Corydon76> And helium is pretty expensive, given that it has to be mined.
11:26 < K`Tetch> so we're getting towards larger craft, so mutli-delivery? perhaps using a skycrane?
11:28 <@dasunt> Or having a blimp being stage 1, and drones being stage 2.
11:29 <@dasunt> OTOH, having a truck be stage 1, and drones being the last mile of delivery probably makes more sense.
11:34 <@Corydon76> If Amazon could reasonably predict demand, they'd have miniature warehouses everywhere, with trucks restocking those mini warehouses and drones delivering straight from those local facilities
11:34 <@Corydon76> I honestly don't see drones used elsewhere, unless Amazon decides to start running its own shipping fleet
11:35 <@dasunt> I'm not sure if drones are cost effective, TBH.
11:35 <@Dagmar> I hear they're pretty useful for delivering small explosives to armories
11:36 <@Corydon76> Well, you need to remember that the whole idea here is that drones will get packages delivered _faster_ and with speed comes higher cost shipping fees
11:36 <@Dagmar> Also... free drones.  ;)
11:36 <@Corydon76> So Bezos will ensure the fees will cover the costs of flying the drones
11:36 <@Corydon76> plus a handsome markup, I'm sure
11:37 <@Corydon76> Think about having a part fail in a production server.  How much might you pay to have a new part on site within an hour, instead of 4 hours or even next day?
11:38 <@dasunt> But is that a typical use case?
11:38 <@dasunt> There needs to be enough demand for "right now" versus "next day" to make a drone business profitable.
11:38 <@Corydon76> With every speed tier being its own cost?
11:40 <@Corydon76> The only thing they really need to beat is the cost of IBM putting an engineer on a plane with a part in his carryon, flying the engineer to the site to install it
11:40 <@Corydon76> Because IBM does exactly that for its top level companies
11:42 <@dasunt> Well, IBM is providing a service as well for that cost.
11:43 <@dasunt> But most people aren't a fortune 500 company.  What premium are people willing to pay for quicker delivery, and on what products?
11:43 <@Corydon76> And if IBM could outsource that to Amazon for a fraction of what they're spending now, they would
11:43 <@dasunt> To pull numbers out of my ass, I doubt most people would pay an additional $10 to get most items off of Amazon to their home within (say) 4 hours instead of 12.
11:44 <@dasunt> But I could see people easily paying $0.10 more for that.
11:44 <@Corydon76> Depends upon the cost of the item
11:45 <@Corydon76> For a $10 item, they might not, but for a $200 hard drive, would you pay $20 more to have it in your hands while you're still thinking about how it's needed?
11:45 <@dasunt> Depends when I need it.
11:47 <@Corydon76> On the other hand, if that $10 item is the power module for a fan that keeps my data center from overheating and shutting down, I may well pay $200 to have it to me in an hour.
11:49 <@Corydon76> Or the critical part in a home AC system in the middle of August.  1 hour sounds a whole lot better than tomorrow
11:51 <@dasunt> Sure.  And I've known someone who has sped all the way through several states to get a part before to finish up a production run.
11:51 <@dasunt> But "volume" is important.  If you don't have enough volume, your business won't be profitable.
11:52 <@Corydon76> Amazon can afford for the drones to be unprofitable for 3 years while they get the demand up to create sufficient volume to make it profitable
11:53 <@dasunt> Assuming the demand is there to make it profitable in the long term.
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11:54 <@dasunt> Note that even IBM doesn't have it's own fleet of private jets to ferry around their people to do onsite repairs with quick turnaround.
11:55 <@Corydon76> Are you sure about that?
11:55 <@dasunt> Pretty sure.
11:56 <@Corydon76> IBM has a fleet of corporate jets, and I'm fairly certain that if they couldn't get a commercial flight at a particular time, that corporate jet is going up in the air with an engineer and a part
11:56 <@dasunt> Hmmm, I have Amazon same day delivery in my area.  I didn't know that.
11:57 <@Corydon76> There are certain times of the year (i.e. Thanksgiving) when it's impossible to get a seat on a commercial airliner in a short timeframe
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12:01 < aestetix> wait
12:01 < aestetix> where is Dolemite
12:01 < aestetix> I need my fucking hug
12:01 <@Corydon76> He's in LA
12:02 <@Corydon76> Jump a plane and go visit him
12:02 < aestetix> that involves effort
12:02 < aestetix> and going to the US
12:48 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
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13:25 <@dasunt> Awesome:  http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/04/politics/border-searches-phones-laptops-bill/
13:25 < PigBot`> Title: Bill would stop warrantless border device searches of US citizens - CNNPolitics.com (at edition.cnn.com) http://tinyurl.com/k6ymlsd
13:49 < dfused> suggestions for home network logging server with visualization - obviously needs to be free.
14:02 < grimwar> want simple or .... not simple?
14:02 < grimwar> graylog / elasticsearch?
14:02 < dfused> prefr simple since i just want to stand it all up to tinker with
14:05 < dfused> graylog looks good... I'll go work on that
14:05 < dfused> ty
14:05 < _NSAKEY> dfused: You need to talk to NoFault when he's in here. He's got an ELK box at home that he's been stress testing.
14:06 < dfused> theres just so many damn options these days
14:07 < _NSAKEY> We've got some lofty ambitions for the con network this year, and one of them is to incorporate his ELK server.
14:14 < dfused> I so fucking hate my isp...
14:15 < dfused> _NSAKEY: I'm checking into teh stack as well.. notcie it has some other installs like security monitoring I'm going to check into
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16:14 <@dasunt> "Square" https://www.google.com/maps?q=Alden+Square+Park+1169+Gibbs+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55108,+United+States&client=dist-google-maps-apiv3&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN35uI3IvTAhUr64MKHcZBDNIQ_AUICCgB
16:14 < PigBot`> dasunt: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 30480 bytes.
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 05 00:00:04 2017