--- Log opened Fri Jul 10 00:00:46 2015
00:36 <@northrup> jb7od: you were on a roll while I was away
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04:51 < aestetix> god
04:51 < aestetix> having HR makes such a difference
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12:26 <@dasunt> I should move from sysadmining/helpdesking to programming.
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13:15 < aestetix> man
13:15 < aestetix> I am really scared of the US
13:15 < aestetix> People do know that the confederate flag is more than just "we like slavery" right?
13:16 <@Evilpig> no
13:16 <@Evilpig> they're ignorant because the nroth won the war and wrote the history
13:16 < aestetix> and also how the civil war was over a *lot* more than just slavery
13:17 <@dasunt> aestetix: Of course.  The confederate flag really wasn't popular after the war.  It was revived by segregationalists.
13:17 <@dasunt> Also, the Civil War was mostly about slavery.
13:17 < aestetix> dasunt: I disagree. Slavery was the surface level topic.
13:17 < aestetix> It was really about states rights.
13:18 <@Evilpig> to anyone that wasn't brought up in the south, or doesn't give a shit about hte civil war.  the rebel flag = kkk and slavery
13:18 <@dasunt> aestetix: You do know that Southern states specifically complained about how Northern states were interfering with the power of the federal government, right?
13:19 < aestetix> Well, they were.
13:19 <@Evilpig> there were also the issues of the industrial revolution starting in the north and they required raw goods from the south to keep that machine moving forward.
13:19 < aestetix> yep
13:20 <@dasunt> aestetix: Sure, the northern states were setting up their own laws that said if you took a black person to their state, that person was free to go.
13:20 <@Evilpig> it was a lot of issues in that war and slavery is just a good mouth piece to whitewash the rest of the issues
13:20 <@dasunt> aestetix: And for all the talk about "states' rights", a state like Pennsylvania setting up a state law like that went over like a lead balloon.
13:20 < aestetix> dasunt: if you're referring to the fugitive slave act, or whatever it was called, that was extremely controversial
13:21 <@dasunt> aestetix: Nope.  FSA was federal.  The Southern states liked that.  But in abolitionist areas of the North, the FSA was hard to enforce.
13:22 < aestetix> dasunt: I am getting the sense you are subtly accusing me of being in favor of slavery.
13:22 <@dasunt> aestetix: Basically the Southern states had the idea that the Federal government should use the FSA to enforce "property rights" (slavery), even if the state disagreed.
13:22 <@dasunt> aestetix: I'm not accusing you of being in favor of slavery.  I'm saying that the "states' rights" argument is bullshit, based on documentation at the time.
13:23 < aestetix> dasunt: is it still bullshit post FDR's new deal and the Truman Doctrine?
13:24 <@dasunt> Truman doctrine and FDR took place after the civil war.  I'm not sure how that's relevant to the causes of the civil war.
13:24 < aestetix> The civil war was the first time the federal government really grew a pair and established supremacy. It was the beginning of the end of the notion of state soverignty.
13:25 < aestetix> After the new deal, states have faded away in terms of relevance
13:25 < aestetix> Thus why FDR is often called the second Lincoln
13:26 <@oddball> After the new deal, states rights don't exist.
13:26 <@dasunt> Except that if the Civil War was about states' rights, then isn't side on states rights the north?  It was the one filled with states ignoring stuff like the Dread Scott decision and the Fugitive Slave Act.
13:27 < aestetix> dasunt: those are both moral stances. The north has always cared more about money.
13:27 <@Dagmar> dasunt: You know... I *tried* explaining this to people on Facebook, but all I got for my trouble was more crap logic
13:27 <@dasunt> aestetix: I'm not bothering with the moral side of things.  I'm saying on a practical level, states in the North were in violation of federal law and SCOTUS.
13:27 <@oddball> He managed to get SCOTUS to state that the fed can regulate the crops a farmer grows for his own consumption because he might have bought those crops from across state lines otherwise... after that, the interstate commerce clause can be used to justify anything.
13:28 <@Dagmar> I absolutely *despise* situations where the only things I can say are "Your school education sucks." and "Your logic is deeply broken."
13:28 < aestetix> oddball: taht was..... Wickard? I think?
13:28 <@Dagmar> Stuff like that are 99% of the reason people think I'm an asshole
13:28 <@oddball> Sounds right.
13:28 < aestetix> Wickard v Fullburn iirc.
13:28 < aestetix> or something
13:28 <@dasunt> I'm not arguing the states' rights issue, I'm just saying at the time, states' rights didn't appear to be the cause.
13:28 < aestetix> close
13:28 < aestetix> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
13:28 < PigBot`> Title: Wickard v. Filburn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
13:29 < aestetix> dasunt: what about the debates in the Senate?
13:29 <@Evilpig> The answer is in every case.  "You win the war, you write the history"
13:29 <@Dagmar> Way too many fuckers want to comflate the two issues of slavery and states fighting for their ability to decide upon it themselves
13:29 < aestetix> Evilpig: yes
13:29 < aestetix> Dagmar: true dat
13:29 <@Evilpig> it's shitty and it sucks, but that's how the masses learned it.  so it must be true.
13:29 < aestetix> Dagmar: that's why I can't discuss this issue with anyone
13:29 <@dasunt> aestetix: What debates are you talking about?
13:29 <@Dagmar> I even pointed out that we *did* in fact have a constitutional amendment because it was _necessary_ to resolve the issue of whether or not the federal government *had the power to forbid slavery*
13:30 < aestetix> What was it.... Daniel Webster, Calhoun.... lemme look it up
13:30 <@Evilpig> I've been having to bite my fucking tongue at work because of them fucking cheering taking down the flag, and several of them contributing _bail money_ to the dumbshit that climbed the flagpole and took it down
13:30 < aestetix> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Triumvirate
13:30 <@Dagmar> We should form a society called "The League of Reasonable Adults"
13:30 < PigBot`> Title: Great Triumvirate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
13:30 <@Dagmar> heh
13:31 <@Dagmar> What _really_ pisses me off is that dumping the complexity of the issue in the trash so you can just say "The war was about slavery" keeps people from facing the reality of the fact that _the government is not always right_
13:31 <@Evilpig> and i'm the asshole for pointing out their helping a criminal.
13:31 < aestetix> Evilpig: I really hate the neoliberals.
13:31 <@Dagmar> They are literally failing to learn the lessons of history
13:31 <@oddball> Evilpig: Because... uh... trespassing and theft are ok if the person believes in the same thing you do?
13:32 <@Dagmar> ...which is probably why they're all ignoring the fact that _most_ of the types of slavery are once again, alive and well in the modern day.
13:32 < aestetix> Dagmar: yep.
13:32 <@Evilpig> it's the same type of thinking that led those morons to block interstates in protest of a idiot getting shot by a cop
13:32 <@dasunt> "
13:32 <@Dagmar> Cuz ya know... since it's legal, it must be right
13:32 <@Dagmar> We will wind up fighting _another_ war over this
13:32 < aestetix> You mean like gerrymandering, or indentured servitude in the form of credit card debt?
13:32 < aestetix> or student loan debt
13:32 <@oddball> Oh, and I've had arguments with people that tried to tell me that there have never been non-black slaves.
13:33 <@dasunt> In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.  Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery" - the start of the declaration by the State of Mississippi for its reasons for seceding.
13:33 <@Dagmar> aestetix: Let's not forget the for-profit prison system
13:33 <@Evilpig> student loan debt is avoidable
13:33 <@Dagmar> That one should have people shitting their pants
13:33 < aestetix> dasunt: fI'm not arguing that slavery wasn't a factor. I'm arguing it was not the ONLY factor.
13:33 <@Evilpig> or at least it can be reasonable.  these people going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt did it on poor advice
13:33 <@Dagmar> Evilpig: It might well be avoidable, but it's still now a form of indentured servitude
13:33 <@Evilpig> they dug their own hole
13:33 <@Dagmar> That your cage is now the size of a country is the only real difference
13:33 <@Evilpig> I'm not disagreeing with that.
13:34 <@Dagmar> One can easily rack up student loans pursuing a degree that has a monetary return so low you will never, ever be able to pay it back
13:34 <@dasunt> aestetix: I'd argue it's the main factor.  The fact that a lot of the capita of the south was tied up in slaves, that the north seemed willing to limit the expansion of slavery, and slave revolts like Haiti weren't helping.
13:35 <@oddball> Dagmar: I'm still waiting for someone to actually do something about asset forfeiture instead of just trotting it out for the outrage ratings.
13:35 <@Dagmar> ...and there is a very specific term for the case where someone takes on a loan they cannot meet the obligations of based on bad advice.
13:35 < aestetix> dasunt: the issue is not whether to have slavery or not. It's whether the federal government can come in and tell a state they cannot have slavery.
13:35 <@Dagmar> It's called "predatory lending" and it's illegal
13:36 <@Evilpig> that goes back to education
13:36 < aestetix> dasunt: I mean, what is the point of a state having a constitution of the federal government can nullify it?
13:36 < aestetix> I asked that question to a constitutional lawyer and he did not have a good answer.
13:36 <@Evilpig> we dumbed down primary and secondary education as to not leave any child behind and instead made them all fucking dumb
13:36 <@Evilpig> but they're all equally dumb now
13:37 <@dasunt> aestetix: That sounds like some convoluted logic.  Tell me, did these states support the rights of states that decided to outlaw slavery?  When dred scott was decided, did they disagree?  When states like Vermont wouldn't prosecute those who helped escaping slaves, did they say the state had that right?
13:37 <@Dagmar> One would think people would see the simple fact that slavery was not outlawed in the Constitution until _after_ the Civil War had ended, and a light bulb would go off over their heads.
13:37 <@Dagmar> er... perhaps "light up" rather than "go off".  Bad choice of idioms.
13:38 < aestetix> dasunt: are you suggestion that people like things that they agree with? :p
13:40 <@dasunt> The other thing is, if these states so strongly felt that the legality slavery was a states' right issue, why did they form a country that made the legality of slavery a federal issue?
13:41 <@Dagmar> Mainly becuase they understood that it needed to be explicitly stated
13:41 <@Dagmar> It was _not_ present in the US Constitution.
13:41 <@Dagmar> ...and the US Constitution is where the Federal government derives it's powers and authority.
13:42 <@Dagmar> Hence, all actions taken by them to forbid it were _not_ legal.
13:42 <@Dagmar> Hence why we needed the 18th Amendment.
13:43 <@Dagmar> Without it in place, the Federal government _was_ engaging in violations of the Constution and violating the rights of states--a matter which featured prominently in their declaration articles of secession.
13:43 <@Dagmar> ...but the shortbus riders just go "But...but... they were _slaveholding_ states!"
13:44 <@Dagmar> The issue is more complex than they realize
13:44 <@Evilpig> you can always have fun with those types by saying "what about the white irish slaves of the northern states?"
13:44 < aestetix> yep
13:44 < aestetix> I love fucking with neoliberals that way
13:45 < aestetix> "I'm not white, I'm Irish."
13:45 < aestetix> they don't know how to respond
13:45 <@dasunt> Dagmar: So because the southern states thought that it should be the individual states' decision to make slavery illegal or legal, they removed that power from themselves?
13:46 <@dasunt> Evilpig: *white irish*?  Why not the black African-American slaves of the northern states?
13:47 <@Evilpig> dasunt: history doesn't write about those.  they didn't exist
13:47 <@Evilpig> they were just house staff, not slaves
13:48 <@Dagmar> dasunt: No.
13:48 <@Evilpig> on another topic... fedex delivers on saturday?  https://www.fedex.com/apps/fedextrack/?action=track&tracknumbers=041034271195995&action=track
13:48 < PigBot`> Title: Track your package or shipment with FedEx Tracking (at www.fedex.com)
13:48 <@Dagmar> dasunt: THey were all already in agreement that they were fine with slavery
13:48 <@dasunt> Evilpig: Sure they do.  I learned about it in history books.
13:49 <@Dagmar> dasunt: THe key thing being _they knew it was necessary_ for it to be in their constitution so that _their_ federal organizations would have a clear and defined mission
13:50 < aestetix> So, here is a perfect examlpe of how the neoliberals will not rest
13:50 < aestetix> https://twitter.com/PykeA/status/619510819081048064
13:50 < PigBot`> Title: Alan Pyke on Twitter: "The flag is down from South Carolinas capitol. But I drove to work today on Jefferson Davis Highway in VA. Miles to go before we sleep." (at twitter.com)
13:50 <@Dagmar> Remember, federal powers are derived from the constitution
13:50 <@dasunt> Dagmar: So what part of the CSA constitution specifically extended states' rights?
13:50 <@Dagmar> aestetix: Someone was nice enough to dig up a close-up of the face of that NAthan Bedford Forrest statue for me
13:51 <@Dagmar> dasunt: It didn't "extend" them.  It declared them.
13:51 <@Dagmar> dasunt: At that point they weren't state's rights.  They were part of the federal mandate
13:51 <@dasunt> Dagmar: And speaking of federal powers, it wasn't the feds who were acting abolitionist.  It was the individual states in the north.
13:52  * dasunt goes to pull up the CSA constitution.
13:53 <@Dagmar> aestetix: Metro is going to plant trees to block it from view going down I-65.  Which I agree with because the thing is ugly even from a distance, but up close it's goddamn terrifyinh
13:53 <@Dagmar> er terrifying
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13:54 <@dasunt> Okay, that's useful:  http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm
13:54 < PigBot`> Title: Constitution of the Confederate States of America- what was changed? (at www.jjmccullough.com)
13:55 <@dasunt> Dagmar: Is that the one ugly statue of whats-his-name?
13:55 <@Dagmar> Yes.
13:55 <@dasunt> Private property though, right?
13:55 <@Dagmar> I'll find that picture.
13:56 <@Dagmar> The face of the statue literally looks like a villain monster from an old episode of Doctor Who
13:56 <@Dagmar> http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID23533/images/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest.jpg
13:57 <@Dagmar> ...and a better angle enhancing the horror factor http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--f8Li3cBt--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1310553686994018150.jpg
14:07 <@oddball> Oh god! I didn't know about the eyes!
14:07 <@Dagmar> Yeah, and the mouth looks like it's threatning to bite faces off
14:08 <@Dagmar> I can just imaging those metallic jaws repeatedly slamming shut
14:08 <@Dagmar> er imagine
14:08 <@oddball> Damn shame that it's plastic, not metal.
14:08 <@Dagmar> That never stopped the Nestine
14:09 <@oddball> Wait... there's a company selling flamethrowers to the public... plastic statue needs destroying...
14:09 <@oddball> I see a pay-per-view event in the making!
14:09 <@Dagmar> Good luck explaining that you did it because the thing is hideous
14:11 <@dasunt> There's no way you're going to be able to take out Forrest and have it attributed to artistic reasons.
14:11 <@oddball> Just in case folks in here haven't seen this one: http://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/people-in-toronto-created-a-memorial-to-a-dead-raccoon-after#.asVV0K2Ay
14:12 < PigBot`> Title: People In Toronto Created A Memorial To A Dead Raccoon After The City Forgot To Pick It Up - BuzzFeed News (at www.buzzfeed.com)
14:12 <@dasunt> Jesus fucking Christ.  How I hate the POS that Microsoft Office is.
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14:28 <@Evilpig> proposal for a 10' screen on the roof of tumblr for "movie nights"
14:32 < aestetix> meet the feebles
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15:31 <@rattle> http://blog.bofh.it/id_456
15:31 < PigBot`> Title: Hacking Team and a case of BGP hijacking (at blog.bofh.it)
15:31 <@rattle> That's seriously fucked up.
15:37 <@Dagmar> I thought we were all on the same page about HackingTeam being criminals for hire?
15:44 <@Dagmar> Fuck this instructtor
15:44 <@Dagmar> I'm helping someone with their C++ homework, and they're specifying that the user should handle their input with a "do/while" loop.
15:45 <@Dagmar> As far as I know that means the input is stuck inside that scope, since they've also been instructed to use _no global variables_
15:47 <@Dagmar> I'm going to assume they just meant to use a while loop.
15:48 <@Dagmar> do {} while(true) is bullshit.
15:53 < hobbes615> rattle: you going to blackhat
15:54 <@rattle> 98% sure I'll be at DC.  Not BH though.
15:54 < hobbes615> ah ok
15:54 < hobbes615> im trying to figure out logistics of going right now
15:55 <@rattle> I've got a ticket arranged already, but I don't have travel/hotel logistics worked out.
15:55 <@rattle> I might be hopping from my current client to another position around the same time, so who's paying my expenses is up in the air.  I might have to eat it myself.
15:55 < hobbes615> ah
16:25 <@dasunt> do { } while ( no_exit ) ?
16:26  * dasunt isn't sure what the instructor's purpose is.
16:26 <@dasunt> Also, is a variable in a function a global variable?  Could they call the func, have a local variable to the function, and do/while in that?
16:46 <@Dagmar> Here's the other fun thing...
16:46 <@Dagmar> You can't use functions.
16:47 <@Dagmar> This thing will be a paen to unreadability, IMHO
16:47 <@Dagmar> It's also supposed to be a tax calculation, and the way they are doing that part is insane
16:48 <@Dagmar> According to these rules, if you are paying taxes on $10,000 the first $7,500 is taxed at one rate, and the remaining $2,500 is taxed at a higher rate
16:48 <@Dagmar> ...and I'm like "Really?"
16:48 <@Dagmar> This is doable, but it's a clusterfuck of hostile design
16:49 <@Dagmar> Basically, you _have_ to have a do {} while (true) in this thing
16:49 <@Dagmar> ...because you've got to store the values somewhere
16:49 <@Dagmar> So technically, the filing status selection is only scoped to the do{} clause
16:50 <@Dagmar> It's the requirement of do/while instead of just while that pisses me off
16:50 <@Dagmar> ...as well as if I were to truly take this literally, it would be a fucking nightmare of branching and redundant calls
16:52 <@oddball> ok... so just heard something on NPR that made me want to strangle someone.
16:53 <@oddball> They were talking about background checks (NICS), and one of the commentators has recently discovered that if the NICS results don't come back in 3 days, that you can go ahead and proceed with the sale.
16:54 <@oddball> This commentator believes that that's wrong, and that we should default to denying... if the federal government can't find anything in 3 days saying you shouldn't own a gun.
16:54 <@Dagmar> That overcomplicated tax schedule is why it is bullshit that they're not allowed to use arrays, either.
16:54 <@oddball> Yes... because the default should be to deny constitutional fucking rights.
16:55 <@oddball> Oh.. but he's not against gun ownership.
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16:56 <@dasunt> I'm not uber into C++, but I thought C++ programs had a main function, similar to C, that must be called.
16:57 <@oddball> Dagmar: I'm still a backer of forcing members of Congress to do their own taxes using nothing but a pad of paper and a simple calculator.  Oh, and they all get audited every other year.  That will cause real tax code reform in a hurry.
16:58 <@oddball> dasunt: That's what I remember from those classes I took years ago.
16:58 <@dasunt> I actually did my taxes with paper last year.  It was simple enough for a 1040EZ at the time.
17:00 <@oddball> Oh, yes.  I've told my friends that qualify for the 1040EZ to just do it themselves.
17:00 <@dasunt> I believe I've done the 1040A by hand as well.
17:00 <@oddball> There's a reason why the form has "easy" in the name.
17:00 <@dasunt> Really, unless you have a shitton of investments or deductions, I find taxes not that complicated.
17:01 <@oddball> But once you get into having stocks, interest bearing accounts of any size, real tax deductions, etc, it gets complicated quick.
17:01 <@dasunt> I still think we should have the New Zealand system, where the government sends you a completed income tax form and says "hey, does this look right?  If so, sign off and mail this back".
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17:13 <@Dagmar> We could easily do that now if mail delivery were considered secure
17:13 <@Dagmar> Well over half the country could file a 1040EZ form as it is
17:14 <@dasunt> Considering how big of a business individual tax preparation is, I'm not sure we *can* do it politically.
17:15 <@Dagmar> That business is largely driven by "OOOo tax codes are scaaary!" so fuck those people
17:16 <@dasunt> Hey, "those people" are kind and generous.  Especially to politians and their campaigns.
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17:18  * dasunt ponders joining Sons of the American Revolution for shits and giggles.
17:20 <@dasunt> Then for added lulz, I could probably qualify for this as well:  http://www.uelac.org/
17:20 < PigBot`> Title: Homepage for United Empire Loyalists' Association of Canada (UELAC) (at www.uelac.org)
17:23 <@dasunt> The only reason I'd more or less avoid joining SAR is because I imagine it's filled with a bunch of 60 year old guys drinking beer.
17:38 <@oddball> dasunt: They're Project Appleseed sessions are a damned good way to learn to shoot a rifle accurately.
17:39 <@oddball> They're also one of the qualifying clubs for the Civilian Marksmanship Program, if you want to buy anything from them.  That's why I joined.\
17:39 < aestetix> Ellen Pao resigned.
17:49 <@dasunt> oddball: You're a member of SAR?
17:50 <@oddball> I was for a year a couple years ago.
17:50 <@dasunt> aestetix: But when will she file her lawsuit for discrimination/hostile work environment at Reddit?
17:50 <@dasunt> oddball: Cool.  If you don't mind me asking, who was your qualifying ancestor?
17:50 <@oddball> Didn't really do anything other than it included the fee to go to the Appleseed Shoot.
17:50 <@oddball> They didn't ask.
17:51 <@oddball> Oh... wait... wrong org.
17:51 < aestetix> lol
17:51 <@oddball> I think... hold on.
17:52 <@oddball> Right.  Wrong org.  It was the Revolutionary War Veterans Association.
17:54 <@dasunt> LUL.
17:54 <@dasunt> I'd quality for that as well.
17:55 <@oddball> The only qualification for that one is being able to pay the membership dues.
17:59 <@oddball> Oh... and found out how much nashville2600 owes the printer: $56.
18:00 <@oddball> Which would explain why they didn't bother following up too hard.
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18:42 < aestetix> oh this should be fun
18:42 < aestetix> apparently Harper Lee's new book sets Atticus Finch as a racist asshole
18:42 < aestetix> The neoliberals are gonna go apeshit
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21:10 <@Evilpig> https://goo.gl/photos/bqg35dQqV6hHhK2m6
21:10 <@Evilpig> finally got it to sync out of the shield
21:44 <@Dagmar> Poor, poor Ted Cruz
21:44 <@Dagmar> Can't buy his way into the top sellers list for his new book.
21:45 <@Dagmar> His people are actually angry that they're not allowed to know who to buy his book from in bulk in order to cheat that system
22:04 < _NSAKEY> Dagmar: He didn't just sell it to Walmart?
22:08 <@Dagmar> Nope
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22:31 < _NSAKEY> That's the classic way to cheat any kind of sales.
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23:04 <@Evilpig> just chatted with sprint and got the unlock code for my phone
23:04 <@Evilpig> now to see if I have tethering again
23:06 <@Dagmar> Silly shit like that is one fo the reasons I installed CyanogenMod in the first place
23:06 <@Dagmar> They're dumb enough to think they should filter that functionality by MAC address so that "full sized" devices can't tether
23:07 <@Evilpig> they just outright had it blocked on my phone because I wasn't paying them extra for a feature built into android
23:07 <@Evilpig> since i'll be traveling this week I want my phone to be a backup source of internet, just in case
23:10 <@Evilpig> http://www.droidviews.com/enable-wifi-tethering-on-sprint-galaxy-s6-s6-edge-and-note-4-on-lollipop/
23:10 < PigBot`> Title: Enable WiFi Tethering on Sprint Galaxy S6, S6 Edge and Note 4 (at www.droidviews.com)
23:10 <@Evilpig> consequently I can now enable/disable ipv4/ipv6 on my phone as well
23:30 <@Dagmar> According to their site, 1:1 tethering over bluetooth is supposed to work regardless.
23:31 <@Dagmar> Yet it only works with my tablet until I fucking undo their shit
--- Log closed Sat Jul 11 00:00:48 2015