--- Log opened Sun Aug 17 00:00:21 2014
00:25 < aestetix> RangerZ: my point wasn't about ads so much as apps
00:26 < aestetix> The entire idea of the web is that you can have things linking to each other. That's why the walled garden approaches are so bad.
00:26 < aestetix> Everything that creates state within the web (cookies, etc) are hacks on HTTP
00:26 < aestetix> Apps limit access to a certain kind of device. You can't install an iOS app on android (unless I"m mistaken)
00:28 < aestetix> But if you take the obvious comparison to bookmarks (bookmarks in a web browser as to apps on a dashboard), bookmarks are far more versatile and can be put on any device.
00:28 < aestetix> Although I will admit I do like mozilla's approach to this... which is that by including a single line in your website code, your device can automatically create an app for it
00:30 < RangerZ> Why is state a bad thing?
00:31 < aestetix> On another note
00:31 < aestetix> http://pavlok.com/ god I hope this system gets hacked
00:31 < RangerZ> I don't see how 'state' is a bad thing
00:31 <@Wilpig> https://www.dropbox.com/s/exxfr0qctyoctw2/2014-08-17%2000.31.03.jpg
00:31 <@Wilpig> wtf.
00:31 < RangerZ> SSL isn't possible without 'state' either
00:32 < aestetix> I didn't say it was. I simply said that it's not what HTTP was designed for.
00:32 < aestetix> SSL was *also* a hack.
00:32 <@Wilpig> I just did this attack it hit for 9999 and sent out via streetpass for 0
00:32 < aestetix> Wilpig: is that a game?
00:32 <@Wilpig> yes
00:32 < RangerZ> aestetix: then re-write the TCP stack...
00:32 < aestetix> I said HTTP, not TCP.
00:33 < RangerZ> you also mentioned SSL, which is part of the TCP stack (how it is actually implemented)
00:33 < aestetix> I simply said these things are hacks.
00:33 < RangerZ> and?
00:34 < aestetix> State in itself is not a bad thing. I mean, it's how calculators work.
00:34 < RangerZ> I know very well how they are, FFS SMTP was a pair of grad students term project, which is why it has NO security ontop of it
00:34 < aestetix> But state in HTTP allows for things which go against what HTTP was created for.
00:35 < aestetix> I think a better question here is: should technology be used to extend or replace our capacities?
00:35 < RangerZ> I think you're rather confused as to what 'other peoples' idea of "open web" is then
00:35 < aestetix> Thanks.
00:35 < RangerZ> b/c my understanding of 'open web' from the article describing it, and wiki, and others is NOTHING like that
00:35 < aestetix> I've had conversations with people at Mozilla about this, fwiw.
00:36 < aestetix> Wait, are you suggesting that there might be different meanings for words dependending on context?
00:36 < aestetix> Or that your wiki page is the one true definition? :)
00:36 < RangerZ> i'm suggesting you're purposely using that change in context to not answer things
00:36 < RangerZ> if you want to be a smart ass about it, lol
00:37 < aestetix> The open web allows your page to link to other pages, and other pages to link to you.
00:37 < RangerZ> that model of computation prevents 'state'
00:37 < aestetix> I could go down the control route here, but it would just make you mad.
00:38 < RangerZ> thats a nice theoretical model, which will never exist again
00:38 < aestetix> Back to my question. What's the purpose of technology: to enhance or to replace?
00:39 < RangerZ> both
00:39 < aestetix> Or to ask Corydon76-home questions about his penis
00:39 < aestetix> Ok, what's an example where replace works?
00:39 < RangerZ> tech that replaces the risk of people from having to die of carbon monoxide
00:40 < RangerZ> or better battery tech, replacing older battery tech, b/c it is cheaper (with no other benefits)
00:40 < aestetix> Does that replace risk, or enhance detection?
00:40 < aestetix> That replaces the materials, but enhances the abilities or the intended gain.
00:40 < aestetix> Here's an example: would you chop off your arm and replace it with a bionic arm?
00:44 < RangerZ> you know, trying to 'show' examples is a great argumentive tool, except when the person can see where you are going with it, that "tech is used in 'enhancing' civ/life/etc", but thats not the question you asked in the first place, 'enhance or replace' and I said 'both', tech is used when SOMEONE decides that a tech 'enhances their lifestyle in 'some' way (cheaper cost, higher gain, less time, more time, etc... depending on the tech), bu
00:44 < RangerZ> and yes, I would replace my arm, if there was a benefit to it
00:44 < RangerZ> ie... I lost movement or feeling in my arm
00:44 < RangerZ> or it has a laser blaster built into it
00:44 <@Bahhumbug> longer fapping sessions.
00:45 < RangerZ> lol
00:45 < RangerZ> or viagra so old people like Bahhumbug can fap at all
00:45 <@oddball> There's a video out there showing a guy catching a falling scarf with a prostetic arm.  The hand is fucking articulated.
00:46 <@oddball> There was also a series debate a couple years ago about whether a sprinter had an unfair advantage because of his space age prostetic legs.
00:46 < RangerZ> just fucking wait for augmented eyeballs
00:47 < RangerZ> MPAA is going to fucking have heart attacks
00:47 < RangerZ> 'you are entering into a movie theater with a digital recording device'
00:47 < RangerZ> "umm... its how I see the world"
00:47 < RangerZ> also... imagine being able to record 100% accurately what cops see
00:47 <@oddball> Oh, just wait until there are Google Glass type devices that are designed like normal glasses.
00:48 < RangerZ> I've talked to someone in google's R&D, and he wouldn't say I was wrong, when I hinted that google purposely made the glass look weird, so that they could tell the level of public outrage, if it was noticable
00:49 < RangerZ> aestetix: I am still curious as to your 'point' about open web vs state
00:50 < RangerZ> b/c I don't see where you can make that arguement in good faith, with your understanding of how webpage/services work today
00:50 < RangerZ> there would be 0 way to have web-mail or ANY private information on the internet
00:50 < RangerZ> unless that is your stated purpose
00:50 < RangerZ> sorry...unstated*
00:53  * oddball tries to scroll up to see what the argument is.
00:53 <@oddball> aestetix: Technology's purpose is to make shit easier/possible.
00:54 < RangerZ> that 'arguement' was only a method to make his above statement that cookies, and 'state' are a "hack" ontop of HTTP
00:54 <@oddball> I'm a firm believer that necessity is not the mother of invention, it's laziness.
00:54 < RangerZ> and somehow thats 'bad'
00:55 < RangerZ> oddball: there was actually a survey of patents and other inventions, and comparing the job/lifestyle of the inventer
00:55 <@oddball> It's amazing what people will do to get out of doing work.
00:55 < RangerZ> and showed that 'somewhat well off peole with lots of spare time' are #1 class of inventers
00:56 <@oddball> Who had the time to think "there's gotta be an easier way to do this shit."
00:56 < RangerZ> tilling the ground -> ox + wedge = more free time for me
00:56 <@oddball> yep
00:57 <@Bahhumbug> oddball: Was that sprinter Oscar Pistorius by any chance?
00:57 < RangerZ> yep
00:57 <@oddball> yep
00:57 <@Bahhumbug> Yeah, he's in prison or will soon be.
00:57 < RangerZ> he'll probably get off actually
00:57 <@oddball> I honestly haven't been following the trial.
00:58 < RangerZ> b/c apparently the act of him 'walking' without his legs, and firing the gun, was _really_ effective in his defense
00:58 < RangerZ> plus S. Africa doesn't have a jury, its just the judge
00:58 < RangerZ> so the judge is 'judge and jury'
01:05 < RangerZ> aestetix: I'd argue that the ideals of 'open web' using open standards, open source software, and no censorship as listed as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web is without a doubt a good thing
01:05 <@GateKeeper> Title: Open Web - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
01:06 < RangerZ> but I don't see how 'state-less' is required at all
01:06 <@Bahhumbug> s/is required/can be required/
01:06 < RangerZ> that too
01:07 < RangerZ> it basically prevents persistent apps, in any way whatsoever... unless you use 100% JS apps... which just use JS cookies
01:16 < RangerZ> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3G9WGC2Dw
01:16 <@GateKeeper> Title: This Kind Of Corruption Is Completely Legal & Completely Bullshit - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
01:17 < RangerZ> FCC related, of course
01:17 < RangerZ> :/
01:30 < aestetix> ok RangerZ I have a question for you, since you seem to know everything
01:30 < aestetix> Do you know much about Greek Mythology?
01:31 < RangerZ> some
01:31 < RangerZ> why, whats the question
01:31 < aestetix> How is it that Jason and the Argonauts was written hundreds of years after the Iliad, even though it takes place beforei t?
01:32 < aestetix> oh wait nevermind I see
01:32 < RangerZ> naive answer, it was shoe-horned into fitting
01:32 < aestetix> It appears that it was based on a Homeric epic that has been lost
01:32 < RangerZ> ahh ok
01:33 < RangerZ> never read them
01:33 < aestetix> Well, the Iliad is the oldest surviving work of western civilization, iirc
01:33 < aestetix> and it keeps making references to all these things
01:33 < RangerZ> obviously saw parts of them, and read snipets for classes, but never cared to read it all
01:34 < RangerZ> I'd personally be much more interested in some of the druiadic writings that were destroyed by the church
01:34 < aestetix> But that doesn't mean someone later on could have written a story based on a story that has been lost to us
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01:36 < RangerZ> I think thats what happened
01:36 < RangerZ> though 'the archive' from Dresden Files, could be really useful for this purpose
01:37 < RangerZ> instantly knowing any/all things ever written down in human history
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01:43 < aestetix> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_King_Priam%27s_children
01:43 < aestetix> this guy got around
01:57 < RangerZ> 19 kids and counting, will surpass that with 1 wife
01:59 < RangerZ|Laptop> ohh goodie... Ferguson police moving in on protesters again :/
02:04 < RangerZ|Laptop> ohh at least this time there as a legal curfew put in place
02:04 < aestetix> what
02:04 < aestetix> it's like 2am there
02:04 < RangerZ|Laptop> am
02:04 < RangerZ|Laptop> 1am*
02:04 < RangerZ|Laptop> hmm...
02:04 < aestetix> oh wait
02:04 < aestetix> the curfew
02:06 < RangerZ|Laptop> apparently MO is in mountain time
02:06 < RangerZ|Laptop> so just after midnight there
02:06 < aestetix> it's central
02:06 < aestetix> mountain time is like new mexico I think
02:08 < RangerZ|Laptop> ohh i guess it is, I thought it was too, but just listening to the news, they made it seem like they just started, but i guess they have been 'slow moving' for the past hour
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02:31 < aestetix> hi klixa-cloud
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02:36 < aestetix> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8188374
02:36 < aestetix> RangerZ: you'll like that
02:41 < RangerZ> i think its dangerous to think that we don't need minimum levels of education, but I agree that we need 1) more school days/year, 2) shoter summer vacations (b/c its been proven that longer breaks hurt the poor) 3) more recess 4) more time for self-exploration/experimentation
02:42 < RangerZ> "creativity" != 'not educated'
02:43 < RangerZ> you can have both, but you need parents who care & invest time/effort into their children
02:43 < RangerZ> which is what a lot of kids lack
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03:08 < aestetix> penis
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08:28 < aestetix> well fuck me
08:28 < aestetix> Curfew ends after
08:28 < aestetix> 7 arrests, 1 shooting
08:29 < RangerZ|Laptop> and the shooter got away
08:30 < aestetix> It's turning into a model of how to not enforce the law.
08:50 < RangerZ|Laptop> yes/no, parts of are improvements too, like t he 'community policing' they did 2 nights ago
08:50 < RangerZ|Laptop> i think its just a clear example of both how TO police and how TO NOT police
08:57 < RangerZ|Laptop> the over use of force is only now, even more FOILED by the good policing they had ... friday (I'm not good at telling short term days, b/c of odd sleep pattern)? night
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10:04 < RangerZ|Laptop> aestetix: aren't you just 'so happy' about the kill-switch bill in front of the governor  there, lol
10:13 < RangerZ|Laptop> i wonder if it'll apply to ALL phones, or only smart phones
10:13 < RangerZ|Laptop> and if disabling it, will be a crime
10:29 < RangerZ|Laptop> you know... the worst part about the Ferguson MO, and all recent abuses of police... is how it makes us look internationally, what moral authority do we have to tell other nations to treat their citizens properly
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10:56 < RangerZ1> wtf
10:56 < RangerZ1> a fucking viagra ad on lowes.com
10:57 < RangerZ1> omg... lowes ...why do you have ads
10:57 < RangerZ1> on a BUSINESS website
10:59 <@Wilpig> because websites cost money so you gotta make money for other businesses with your site
11:06 < RangerZ1> yeah I dunno... fucking annoying b/c they had 'trick' ads on them too
11:07 < RangerZ1> "your windows media player 'could' need an update"
11:07 < RangerZ1> etc
11:10 <@Dagmar> Uhh...
11:10 <@Dagmar> URL?
11:11 <@Dagmar> ...becuase Lowes.com does not have ads for me
11:17 < RangerZ|Laptop> mother fucker... looks like adware got installed with camstudio
11:17 < RangerZ|Laptop> guess it wasn't lowes
11:17 < RangerZ|Laptop> was only impacting IE, not chrome
11:18 <@Dagmar> IE.
11:18 <@Dagmar> *headdesk*
11:18 < RangerZ|Laptop> which is probably why chrome w/adblock was fucking failing on chrome
11:18 < RangerZ|Laptop> on lowes*
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11:21 < RangerZ|Laptop> i hate fucking installing random software to test it otu :/
11:21 < RangerZ|Laptop> out*:/
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11:22 < RangerZ|Laptop> "make a video to explain how to install git" ... " ... umm... if they can't install git, and make a ssh cert... then they shouldn't be allowed to take a junior level CS class...."...."ohh... this is for Coursera too"...FML
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11:35 <@Dagmar> Man there's really quite an impressive amount of thunder today
11:35 <@Dagmar> Almost a shame the weather's nearly all passed now
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11:39 < RangerZ|Laptop> yeah, i've heard it, but haven't heard much rain
11:39 < RangerZ|Laptop> was wondering what was going on
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12:02 < RangerZ|Laptop> federal autopsy to be done on his body, b/c ...well... lets be honest... local autopsy might not be 'unbiased'
12:07 <@Dagmar> Also because ut buys them more time before they have to say "This kid was shot with his hands up, in the arms, and while he was on the ground."
12:08 <@Dagmar> ...which would mean the city will go _apeshit_ when the cop just get an "investigation" instead of an "indictment"
12:08 <@Dagmar> Employment as a cop should *not* be a "Get Out Of Jail Free Card" when you fucking murder someone in cold blood.
12:09 <@Dagmar> The cops are thinking "Wow, if we let this guy go to jail, it could be any of us because people could lie just because they hate cops."
12:09 <@Dagmar> ...and I'm thinking, a whole lot of cops lie because they ain't real keen on people being innocent.
12:10 <@Dagmar> So... just desserts there.
12:10 <@Dagmar> THe cops have always had it in their power to clean up their act and stop acting like thugs, and they've never done it, so... tough.
12:11 <@oddball> I just love the folks that think that this is a new thing.  Been happening across the country for years.
12:11 < RangerZ|Laptop> post-post-9-11
12:12 < RangerZ|Laptop> has made it worse and worse
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12:52 <@Dagmar> Okay.  The hell...
12:53 <@Dagmar> Oh... On last wee lil shower
12:53 <@Dagmar> er one
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13:28 < RangerZ|Laptop> ?
13:29 <@Dagmar> I waited until the storm passed to go run some errands
13:29 < RangerZ|Laptop> ohh... you mean the giant storm front heading directly for your apartment
13:29 <@Dagmar> It was raining when I got back home.
13:29 < RangerZ|Laptop> probably a good idea
13:30 < RangerZ|Laptop> few more little spots of storms after the front now
13:30 <@Dagmar> It's all passed now.
13:30 < RangerZ|Laptop> but no biggie
13:30 <@Dagmar> I'm about to crash WoW again
13:30 < RangerZ|Laptop> by using a logical statement in trade chat?
13:31 < RangerZ|Laptop> thats not fair...their servers can't handle that
13:31 <@Dagmar> No, there's a server-side bug in the flight paths I think
13:31 < RangerZ|Laptop> lol
13:31 < RangerZ|Laptop> nice
13:31 <@Dagmar> If you're told to go talk to a flight master to get to somewhere you haven't been before, it's supposed to give you that flight path.
13:32 <@Dagmar> If it *doesn't*... and you just walk there, then go back to the start point where the flightmaster is bugged... if you *take* the flight path you now have, it crashes the server.
13:32 < RangerZ|Laptop> nice
13:32 < RangerZ|Laptop> i actually did that back when the game first launched
13:32 < RangerZ|Laptop> it crashed the zone
13:33 <@Dagmar> This appears to kill the worldserver
13:33 < RangerZ|Laptop> b/c I didn't know where the flight master was
13:33 < RangerZ|Laptop> so i walked to the undead city manually
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13:34 <@Dagmar> Of course the beta is defending itself by crashing the zone server and leaving the character I was going to use stuck loged in.
13:34 < RangerZ|Laptop> passed by the human and gnome major cities by accident... (i got kinda lost)
13:35 < RangerZ|Laptop> maybe not 'that' bad... but yeah... I just wandered around in wow for 'way' too long before figuring things out, it was b/c I was just enjoying reading every piece of lore
13:36 < RangerZ|Laptop> I would love to see single playr WoW
13:36 < RangerZ|Laptop> lol
13:36 < RangerZ|Laptop> b/c I just want the story, not to have to deal with others schedules, etc
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13:52 <@Wilpig> I just won the publishers clearing house sweepstakes again! wooooo
13:54 < RangerZ|Laptop> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRma3S30838
13:54 <@GateKeeper> Title: Women In Bars Dont Usually Surprise You...Until You Hear This - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
13:55 < RangerZ|Laptop> yes... the pretty female bartenders ARE there to look pretty
13:55 < RangerZ|Laptop> as the pretty male bartenders ARE there to look pretty
14:02 <@oddball> I just get pissy when the servers clearly are playing on their looks for tips and give shitty service.
14:06 < RangerZ|Laptop> i enjoy getting discounts for treating female bartenders like humans and looking at their faces
14:06 < RangerZ|Laptop> my roomie at berkley was fucking...pisssed... when he found out the rum & cokes I was getting were only 5$, and his were 7$
14:21 < RangerZ|Laptop> me putting 8$ down, for each, and the her getting 3$ tip from me, and 2$ tip from him... probably had something to do with it too
14:22 <@oddball> Sounds like less of a discount, and more of her putting more money in her pocket.
14:25 <@klixa> theft
14:28 <@oddball> yep
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16:20 <@Corydon76-home> Weird Al just called out jonnyX:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nYjEF6e_n8
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23:29 <@Bahhumbug> RangerZ|Laptop: Did you ever get a reply to your email from your fearless leader?
23:37 <@Wilpig> Bahhumbug: I can say I didn't get even a peep
23:37 <@Wilpig> Bahhumbug: you gonna come out for geeknic?
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23:47 < aestetix> Wilpig: has anyone submitted talks for phreaknic yet?
23:48 <@Corydon76-home> aestetix: why are you asking him?
23:48 < aestetix> I... thought he was involved.
23:48 < aestetix> I guess not.
23:48 < aestetix> Corydon76-home: who wouldk now?
23:48 <@Corydon76-home> Yes, people have submitted talks, and last I heard, there's enough to fill the schedule already without even actually having a formal CFP
23:49 < aestetix> Any good talks?
23:49 <@Corydon76-home> Apparently so, although I'm not privy to that information
23:50 < aestetix> How are they submitting talks if there isn't a way to do it?
23:50 <@Corydon76-home> There's always been a way to do it.  You email the president with your proposal
23:50 <@Corydon76-home> president@nashville2600.org
23:51 <@Bahhumbug> And if you're _really_ _really_ lucky it might actually get read.
23:51 < aestetix> Corydon76-home: that isn't the website
23:51 <@Bahhumbug> Wilpig: I may.  Too far in the future to know for sure.
23:51 <@Corydon76-home> aestetix: No, it's not on the website.
23:51 <@Bahhumbug> There is no website, remember?
23:52 <@Corydon76-home> Actually, there is, although it's a little content-free right now
23:52 <@Bahhumbug> The website would be phreaknic.info?  If so, then I stand by my statement.
23:53 <@Corydon76-home> It's responding with content on port 80.  That's a website.
23:53 <@Corydon76-home> It may not be what you would like to see, but it is a website.
23:53 <@Wilpig> aestetix: i've seen one
23:53 <@Bahhumbug> You can be a pedantic ass all you want.  There is no up to date website.
23:54 < aestetix> Corydon76-home: let's do a talk at PhreakNIC where I interview you
23:54 <@Corydon76-home> Bahhumbug: your ass is showing
23:54 < stowbari> Now we're just nitpicking the difference between content and useful information
23:55 <@Bahhumbug> Mr. Pedantic is trying, yet failing, to make a "point".  There is no nitpicking.  There is no up to date website.
23:55 <@Corydon76-home> aestetix: I'm far too busy at PhreakNIC to take part in a talk
23:55 <@Corydon76-home> <Bahhumbug> There is no website, remember?
23:55 < aestetix> Corydon76-home: but there are important questions the world wants to know the answers to.
23:56 <@Corydon76-home> Bahhumbug: say what you mean, and mean what you say.
23:56 <@Bahhumbug> And again, be a pedantic ass all you want.
23:56 <@Bahhumbug> Your a pedantic ass?  I think I've made that clear?
23:56 <@Corydon76-home> I will
23:56 <@Bahhumbug> Err, You're.
23:56 < aestetix> Corydon76-home: I can assume the role of William F. Fuckley
23:56 <@Corydon76-home> Although, I'd prefer if you'd stop showing your ass in the channel
23:57 <@Bahhumbug> I'd prefer if you'd stop being a pedantic asshole.
23:58 <@Wilpig> I have a problem with "there is enough to fill the schedule already without a CFP" if you haven't seen it
23:58 <@Corydon76-home> aestetix: I'm off my meds, and I'm not in the mood
23:58 <@Wilpig> just going off past years I know that is highly unlikely
23:58 <@Corydon76-home> Wilpig: Why?  I never saw the talks in advance when you ran things, either.
23:58 <@Wilpig> I put them up as soon as I got them
23:58 <@Corydon76-home> Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what the talks are.
23:59 <@Wilpig> not to mention you all saw them as they came in 
23:59 <@Corydon76-home> I don't look at them; I rarely get a chance to actually attend them.
23:59 <@Corydon76-home> Other than dealing with planning to record them all, if no talks ever occurred, my life would be exactly the same.
--- Log closed Mon Aug 18 00:00:22 2014