--- Log opened Thu Oct 31 00:00:08 2013
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00:53 <@Dagmar> Wheeee!
00:53 <@Dagmar> Tonight: Almost 90kxm recharged into resonators around town, and 3,949 new access points scanned
01:00 <@Dagmar> 22 matching attwifi.
01:00 <@Dagmar> 3 matching Wayport_Access
01:11 <@Dagmar> Those are all McDonalds.  The MAC address on them is one lower than the MAC for the attwifi SSID.
01:12 <@Dagmar> It would be interesting to know if a 3DS ever connects to Waypoint over attwifi
01:19 <@Dagmar> Okay.  that odd place on West End at about 2404 has something weird set up
01:20 <@Dagmar> I have personally scanned three different MAC addresses there... F8:4F:57:F7:XX:XX
01:20 <@Dagmar> That's unusual, to say the least
01:21 <@Dagmar> I wonder if someone in the dorms across the street is up to something
01:21 <@Dagmar> The first three digits would indicate Cisco equipment, but I'll be damned if I know what or why that's there on n channels
01:21 <@Dagmar> I'll have to ask the ND&E guys about that one
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01:45 <@Dagmar> It does appear that if the 3DS sees a bunch of different attwifi APs it'll get on the one that's on channel 6.
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02:31 <@aestetix> vagina
03:27 < RangerZ> honeypots in filesharing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGGqOkz8fCU "shocker"
03:27 < GateKeeper> Title: Popular Filesharing Site Was Really a Piracy Honeypot Trap - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
05:11 <@Dagmar> People should pay closer attention to the news
05:12 <@Dagmar> We had advance warning of that _how many times_?
05:19 <@Dagmar> At least three different times we've seen news articles about pro-copyright organizations attempting to set up honeypots
05:19 <@Dagmar> If this were a law enforcemnent agency, it would be enticement.
05:19 <@Dagmar> Since it's _not_ it's _legal_
05:20 <@Dagmar> Lawsuits will likely start up very soon
07:07 <@aestetix> http://imgur.com/UsQfu45 she is hot
07:07 < GateKeeper> Title: Interesting Newspaper Graffiti... - Imgur (at imgur.com)
07:07 <@aestetix> nsfw
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07:17 <@aestetix> http://www.madthumbs.com/videos/fetish/tanner-mays-neck-vagina-is-fucked-until-doctors-cock-goes-through-her-mouth/1009357
07:17 < GateKeeper> Title: Tanner Mays Neck Vagina Is Fucked Until Doctors Cock Goes Through Her Mouth - MadThumbs (at www.madthumbs.com)
07:26 <@Shadow404> aestetix: you sick fuck
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07:36 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
07:59 < Evilpig_> don't mr0ning me, ho
07:59 <@Shadow404> thats right slut, morning is for bitches
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08:34 <@Shadow404> so im gonna pickup an old used laptop for some projects and was wondering what brands/models are good for linux over others, probably gonna run xp on the internal hard drive, but backtrack (or similar) live cds for wireless stuff
08:34 <@Shadow404> suggestions welcome
08:35 <@Shadow404> i do want it to have enough power to run netflix when im chilling though
08:37 <@brimstone> thinkpads
08:37 <@brimstone> thinkwiki.com
08:50 < Evilpig_> I am really thinking about getting a new receiver but damnit the ones that look like a good deal aren't
08:51 < Evilpig_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=82-115-375  <-- doesn't do upscaling
08:51 < Evilpig_> well upscaling / conversion   http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v573_black_u/10295/7716
08:51 < GateKeeper> Title: RX-V573 Video Signal Flow - RX-V573 - RX-V - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual (at faq.yamaha.com)
08:51 < Evilpig_> how hard is it to get a receiver that will take composite and display it via the hdmi out?
08:54 <@Shadow404> brimstone: thinkpads are super compatible with linux i heard, is that actually true?
08:55 <@brimstone> Shadow404: yes
08:55 <@Shadow404> cool
08:55 <@brimstone> the ones i've owned have been great
08:55 <@brimstone> A++ would buy again
08:55 <@Shadow404> when it comes to wardriving, should i make sure it has pcmcia slot or just rely on usb cards?
08:56 <@brimstone> usb alfas are the current hotness
08:56 <@brimstone> pcmcia is old and busted
08:56 < Evilpig_> just like brimstone 
08:56 <@Shadow404> ok, yeah, fair enough, most of the live cds probably support mostly usb now anyways
08:56 <@brimstone> usb brimstone are the current hotness
08:56 < Evilpig_> where can I order a usb-brimstone?
08:56 <@Shadow404> lawl
08:56 <@brimstone> kali probably supports the old stuff, but i'm positive usb cards work
08:56 < Evilpig_> how much storage does it come with?
08:57 <@brimstone> Evilpig_: check your local repo!
08:57 <@brimstone> 1 free copy with every 3.12 kernel!
08:57 <@brimstone> storage may vary
08:57 <@brimstone> see store for details
08:57 <@brimstone> offer good while supplies last
08:57 <@brimstone> void where prohibited
08:57 <@Shadow404> 1 per order?
08:57 <@brimstone> not valid to current employees or family members
08:57 < Evilpig_> I wanna see the tumblr office this morning and see what the girls wore in....
08:58 <@Shadow404> pics or it didnt happen
08:58 <@brimstone> office.tumblr.com?
08:58 <@Shadow404> and get that picture that i asked for too, i wanna see if shes hot
08:58 <@brimstone> surely there's such
08:58 < Evilpig_> there is a video feed, but it's only active during all-company meetings
08:59 < Evilpig_> There was a film crew for "Today" there on tuesday
09:03 <@Shadow404> nice
09:04 <@Shadow404> woke up to this song on my alarm clock today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlS_Rnb5WM4
09:04 < GateKeeper> Title: Skynet Symphonic | Pogo - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
09:12 <@Shadow404> ok, the muppet bash pogo remix is halarious
09:12 <@Shadow404> *mash
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10:17 <@rattle> It's the Fat Edward Snowden: http://i.imgur.com/uq4sHuE.jpg
10:18 < Evilpig_> lol
10:18 < Evilpig_> that reminds me I still have a badge to send to you.  i'm just not entirely sure where it is right now.  I did pack it though
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10:40 < v4mp> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24757426
10:40 < GateKeeper> Title: BBC News - Ex-NSA man Edward Snowden gets web job in Russia (at www.bbc.co.uk)
10:41 < Evilpig_> awesome.  plex is good for allowing me to watch the adventures of captain no chin without having to wait til I get home
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11:04 < frsilent> lol, know this is old news but the absurdity: http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/11/transgender-woman-arrested-after-exposing-her-breasts-at-dmv-protest/
11:08 <@Shadow404> im such a geek: http://www.snsweather.com:81/witchesbrew.jpg
11:08  * Shadow404 waits for dole's comment about :81
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11:16 <@Shadow404> sigh
11:18 <@Shadow404> i found a modem that has confirmed to work with comcast in my area, i just need to purchase it
11:19 <@Shadow404> so looking forward to get rid of this leased gateway modem shit
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11:28 < Evilpig_> I have a modem that works with comcast in your area for sale, cunt
11:29 < Evilpig_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825122015
11:29 < Evilpig_> I paid $70 for it
11:30 <@Shadow404> how much you willing to sell/ship it for?
11:30 < Evilpig_> you send me $70 and i'll take it to the ups store in the morning
11:30 <@Shadow404> one im looking at is gonna be $45
11:30 <@Shadow404> :(
11:30 < Evilpig_> docsis 3, brand new, supports ipv6
11:30 <@Shadow404> same
11:30 <@Shadow404> double :(
11:31 < Evilpig_> a year warranty?  heh
11:31 <@Shadow404> gonna go with the DPC3000
11:32 <@Shadow404> not sure on that, but since the cost is (almost) half that of the one you got...not sure if year warranty is worth it...
11:32 <@Shadow404> the dpc3000 will tuck nicely on the wall
11:32 <@Shadow404> in the network closet
11:33 <@Shadow404> food time, bbiab
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12:38 < v4mp> lol anyone have thoughts on this? http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-malware-that-jumps-airgaps/
12:39 < GateKeeper> Title: Meet “badBIOS,” the mysterious Mac and PC malware that jumps airgaps | Ars Technica (at arstechnica.com)
12:39 < v4mp> seems so whacko from such a high profile guy
12:40 <@brimstone> someone else was talking about a malware that ran from a usb drive and didn't need to be mounted
12:40 <@brimstone> some of it's bullshit though: "The packets were transmitted even when the laptop had its Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards removed."
12:41 <@Shadow404> yeah, haha
12:44 <@Dagmar> Dude is smoking too much weed
12:44 <@Shadow404> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/lifi-revolution-internet-connections-using-light-bulbs-are-250-times-faster-than-broadband-8909320.html
12:44 <@Dagmar> "has the ability to use high-frequency transmissions passed between computer speakers and microphones to bridge airgaps."
12:44 <@Dagmar> No.
12:44 <@Dagmar> Not a fucking chance
12:45 <@Corydon76-home> It has a possibility of working that way, but not with a large degree of bandwidth
12:45 <@Shadow404> yeah, plus the receiving computer has to have that malware installed already and listening and be within range and not to much background noise, etc
12:46 <@Shadow404> very inplausible/difficult
12:46 <@Dagmar> "To communicate over ultrahigh frequency sound waves between computers is really, really easy" <-- yet more bullshit
12:46 <@Corydon76-home> You can use DSP to get rid of the ambient noise
12:46 <@Shadow404> to a degree yes...
12:47 <@Dagmar> Fucking Apple users
12:47 <@Corydon76-home> I think the possibility is much greater that another security researcher is fucking with him
12:48 <@Corydon76-home> I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the motherboard of a few of his computers have been altered to add additional wireless capability
12:48 <@Corydon76-home> Faraday cage would be sufficient to prove that
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12:49 <@brimstone> also, to do all of that is a lot of code, a huge payload
12:50 <@Dagmar> ...or one SoC device installed
12:50 <@Shadow404> is this reporter a college student?
12:50 <@Dagmar> Probably
12:51 <@Shadow404> na, if you click on his name in the By: field, he looks to old for college
12:51 <@Shadow404> couild be just a paranoid mac user like you said
12:52 < v4mp> yea... it's really weird... I'm surprised he didn't test with a faraday cage
12:52 < v4mp> especially if he was too lazy to get some audio or DSP equipment
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12:53 < v4mp> if the problem has persisted for /years/, why wasn't there a higher level of rigor in his testing by this point
12:53 <@Shadow404> heh, he also said the computer was even infected with power cord removed.....aside from maybe a laptop, completely bs, even wtih bios battery
12:53 <@Shadow404> possibly the NSA is spying on him.....haha
12:53 < v4mp> ^
12:53 <@Shadow404> Dolemite: you spying on this guy?
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12:54 <@oddball> Also: if this has been going on for years... how come no one else has reported it?
13:02 < v4mp> there are so many levels of sketch to this... fwiw: https://plus.google.com/103470457057356043365/posts/9fyh5R9v2Ga
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13:03 < v4mp> at first thought maybe an expansion rom hardware sploit, but this all just seems so ridiculous in this context
13:04 <@Shadow404> i wanna see some case example code of the malware
13:04 <@Shadow404> this sounds more and more like a paranoia story
13:06 <@Corydon76-home> I know how it's being done.
13:07 <@Corydon76-home> For you STNG nerds, think of the "holodeck within a holodeck" story.
13:09 <@Shadow404> oh yes
13:09 <@Shadow404> when they warped the enemies into the holodeck with a copy of the bridge
13:10 <@Corydon76-home> That's how it's "rewriting itself"
13:10 <@Corydon76-home> It isn't actually rewriting anything, just preventing it from writing in the first place
13:10 <@Shadow404> ah, ok
13:12 <@Corydon76-home> The disk cache is the reason why is appears to revert... Disk cache saves changes only for a short term, then the cache expires, and it has to be read fresh from disk.  That's when the non-write becomes apparent.
13:13 <@Corydon76-home> Some of the Android jailbreaks from a year or two ago ran into this same issue, where they thought they had jailbroken a device, only to have it revert on them.  It's because the write was to a RO area, which the OS gives a successful message for, even when it fails to write.
13:17 < v4mp> I'm curious as to why, after three years, he hasn't dumped one of the infected usb keys
13:18 < v4mp> that's interesting about the caching
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13:22 <@brimstone> cuz he keeps owning his box when he tries v4mp
13:23  * v4mp shrugs
13:26 <@Shadow404> so how should he look at removing the malware completely?
13:26 <@Shadow404> from your perspective Corydon76-home
13:39 <@Corydon76-home> Shadow404: depends upon whether the bios is actually infected or not
13:40 <@Corydon76-home> I suspect it isn't, due to the complexity of what is alleged
13:40 <@Corydon76-home> I suspect it would be as simple as replacing the internal drive
13:42 <@Corydon76-home> and doing a bios reset
13:44 <@Corydon76-home> I suspect when he's doing a boot, what's actually occurring is that the timeout for the bios interrupt has been set essentially to 0, so that the real bios can never be entered, but instead a very thin OS is booted containing the hypervisor, and then everything is manipulated from there
13:46 <@Corydon76-home> You could easily show this, simply by using a processor that doesn't have the VT feature (from around 2005 or so)
13:47 <@Shadow404> oh man, you got some pretty deep insight on this, i would write that up, send it to him and post the response, if any
13:48 <@Corydon76-home> Not worth my time
13:48 <@Shadow404> meh, would of been interesting, oh well
13:49 <@notlarry> Ok, I don't know about this "badBIOS" thing, but - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q
13:49 < GateKeeper> Title: Nuke the entire site fom orbit - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
13:49 <@Corydon76-home> My experience has been anytime you contradict someone with a silly theory is that they'll challenge your credentials, and then you either have to spend a ton of time showing that they're an idiot, or you're easily dismissed, and then your future reputation takes a hit.
13:50 <@Corydon76-home> Just not worth the effort it would take
13:50 <@Shadow404> this is also true Corydon76-home and can understand that
13:50 <@Shadow404> notlarry: thats what happen to geocities
13:50 <@notlarry> I mean, if his is the only currently infected site.  We could be looking at Skynet.  I've seen the movies, I know how this goes...
13:50 <@notlarry> ikr
13:51 <@Shadow404> and side note: Sigourney Weaver, mmmmmmmmmm giggity
13:51 <@notlarry> And I was pretty upset about it at the time.
13:51 <@Shadow404> i miss geocities
13:51 <@Shadow404> not all of it got catalogged
13:52 <@Shadow404> its only a matter of time before it becomes self aware
13:52 <@notlarry> Speaking of missing things.  I am looking for a console app (linux) that does what desqview used to do on dos.  Anyone know of anything?
13:52 <@Shadow404> nice segway notlarry
13:56 <@notlarry> Perhaps, but still did not answer my question.
14:04 <@aestetix> ok that's fucking hilarious
14:05 <@aestetix> Ed Snowden got a job as a sysadmin in russia
14:05 < RangerZ> LOL
14:05 < RangerZ> really....
14:05 < RangerZ> good for him
14:06 < RangerZ> the movie rights alone, are going to be great for him, but he needs the "story" to be over before that movie will be made
14:06 <@aestetix> http://boingboing.net/2013/10/31/edward-snowden-gets-a-job-in-r.html
14:06 < GateKeeper> Title: Edward Snowden gets a job in Russia - Boing Boing (at boingboing.net)
14:07 <@aestetix> "So, Mr. Snowden, can you tell me about a time you faced a challenge at work?"
14:08 <@Shadow404> haha, nice
14:08 <@notlarry> d
14:08 <@notlarry> wefl
14:09 <@notlarry> S
14:12 < RangerZ> you know what... he's proven he has the tech skills atleast, LOL
14:12 < RangerZ> it would be like hiring Dagmar, you know they are insane, but if you point them to a server and tell them to keep it up, they will
14:16 <@notlarry> Forgot about screens split feature.  That will do.
14:16  * Shadow404 hands RangerZ, Dagmar's Viagras prescription for keeping it up
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14:27 <@Shadow404> guess he couldnt keep it up...
14:28 < Evilpig_> my new favorite tumblr.  sorry aestetix.  http://cashcats.biz/
14:33 <@aestetix> no!
14:41 <@aestetix> also, vagina
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15:38 <@Shadow404> Evilpig_: cards?
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17:04 <@aestetix> penis
17:05 < RangerZ> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/13/10/31/193206/android-kitkat-released ohh gooide :/
17:05 < GateKeeper> Title: Android KitKat Released - Slashdot (at mobile.slashdot.org)
17:05 < RangerZ> actually, is anyone here a WIFI/radio/EE ?
17:06 < RangerZ> I have a question regarding cell phone antenna length & freq matchup
17:10 <@Dagmar>  You want quarter or half-lenght
17:13 <@Dagmar> THe antennas can be veru short now
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17:21 < RangerZ> What I was thinking, was is it possible to have a 'single antenna' for all the carrier's signals
17:22 <@Dagmar> Oh easy mode.  "Not a very good one"
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17:22 <@Dagmar> There's at least three frequencies you'd probably want to tune in
17:24 <@Dagmar> This may help a little bit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna
17:24 < GateKeeper> Title: Dipole antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
17:26 <@Dagmar> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopole_antenna
17:26 < GateKeeper> Title: Monopole antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
17:27 <@Dagmar> I was desperate enough with that GS2 to try making one out of some scrape wire
17:27 <@Dagmar> It worked, but it was obnoxious having the longer wire sticking out
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17:33 <@aestetix> wow
17:33 <@aestetix> Snowden could testify about the Merkel stuff
17:33 <@aestetix> that's fucking huge
17:36 <@rattle> Testify where?
17:36 <@rattle> And why?  There's nothing illegal about it.
17:36 <@aestetix> http://rt.com/news/snowden-merkel-testify-nsa-051/
17:36 < GateKeeper> Title: Snowden ready to testify in Merkel tapping case – German lawmaker — RT News (at rt.com)
17:37 <@aestetix> rattle: I know that. It's more... we're in a position where someone released a document that is shaking politics, and they aren't a crazy egomaniac, and they are able to talk about it publicly.
17:37 <@aestetix> At least, it would be hard for Snowden to top Assange in the egomaniac category
17:37 <@rattle> He's being used like a tool.
17:38 <@aestetix> I'll be very interested in what he has to say.
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17:39 <@rattle> The only upside of all this, is the public at large is learning the realities of espionage.  Sorta.
17:39 <@rattle> There are things in the various disclosures that are questionable, but that's not the point..
17:40 <@rattle> The reason various countries are riding the outrage wagon so hard, isn't because any of this is surprising, it's because the US is losing it's control of various narratives regarding global security issues for the first time since WWII.
17:40 <@rattle> And that's seen as useful.
17:41 <@rattle> Germany's interest doesn't have shit to do with the US here.  It has to do with the US's sway in Europe.
17:42 <@rattle> Actually, there's one more upside.  The US public is learning exactly how out of control the IC can get..  Which most people assume, but now they "know".
17:42 <@aestetix> What is the IC?
17:42 <@aestetix> The international community?
17:42 <@rattle> Intelligence Community
17:43 <@aestetix> got it
17:43 <@aestetix> rattle: agreed.
17:43 <@rattle> In Germany's case, it's particularly amusing.
17:43 <@rattle> After WWII, we had COMPLETE penetration of every aspect of Germany.  It was basically the groundstone of the modern USG IC.
17:43 <@aestetix> Not only germany.
17:44 <@aestetix> But yes.
17:44 <@aestetix> I think they are also riding it hard because while it's not surprising, nobody had any public proof of it.
17:44 <@rattle> Did anyone actually believe we got lax on that at any point?  Like after the wall fell, we just sent all the assets to the beer gardens and said "it's all cool now!"
17:44 <@rattle> I mean, seriously.  Where's the logic here?
17:45 <@rattle> If there was actual real outrage about espionage practices in the EU, they would be aimed at France.
17:45 <@rattle> This is all theatre.
17:45 <@aestetix> Again, agreed.
17:46 <@aestetix> The reason I would suggest this is different is because unlike Manning and Assange, Snowden has the ability to clarify his own position and reasoning, and isn't a complete douchenozzle about it.
17:46 <@aestetix> At least, yet.
17:46 <@rattle> I don't know what to make of his personal motives.
17:47 <@aestetix> Well there is that. Like the fact he's a card carrying liberarian
17:47 <@aestetix> libertarian*
17:47 <@aestetix> I'm kind of curious if the NSA has all Snowden's old phone records, or if Snowden managed to delete them before he left.
17:47 <@rattle> His motives might be totally awesome, and all things I agree with, actually..  But he's doing real damage to the US right now.  And I'm not happy about that.
17:48 <@aestetix> Do you mean in means or end?
17:48 <@aestetix> What he's doing is going to dismantle a lot of the infrastructure. The question is, is there a better way to do it?
17:49 <@aestetix> And if there is, is that end justified?
17:49 <@rattle> End?  Really?  If the guy actually things he as defined an end, and a path to it, he's delusional.
17:49 <@aestetix> The question persists, regardless of whether Snowden is aware of it :p
17:50 <@aestetix> IE I don't think the guy who shot archduke ferdinand was attempting to create WW1
17:50 <@rattle> This is about way more than the infrastructure of the IC and how they use it.  It's about how the diplomatic narratives of global politics and the degree to which the US has control over it.
17:50 <@aestetix> (there's also the elephant in the room, what happens if we lose the surveillance infrastructure....)
17:50 <@aestetix> Right, I realize that.
17:50 < dc0de> the real issue, isn't what snowden's motives are, it's how are we going to reign in the power that we've allowed the US Gov to take from us, and the removal of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th ammendments.
17:51 <@rattle> Well, we've already completely lost control of several really important issues.
17:51 <@aestetix> If you refer to the infrastructure as a shield, it's worth asking what is the shield protecting us from.
17:51 <@rattle> The only winner so far in any of this is China.
17:51 < dc0de> I really don't care if we lose the surveilance infrastructure.
17:51 < dc0de> it hasn't done that much good...
17:51 <@rattle> Do I really have to lecture on the difference between protection and detection?
17:51 <@rattle> And how asking a question like that is loaded with logical flaws?
17:51 < dc0de> rattle: don't pretend to know more about this than everyone else.
17:52 < dc0de> You seem to forget what I used to do for our country.
17:52 <@aestetix> rattle: the one point I will concede is that it's complex.
17:52 <@rattle> Whatever, you know I respect you.  And you should know that I don't agree with much of what the IC does.
17:52 <@rattle> But this shit is still damaging.
17:53 < dc0de> what our government is doing by tapping everything, and saving all encrypted data off for "later key bruting" isn't legal.
17:53 <@aestetix> That said, Snowden had access to a lot more information than I do, so it's hard to make informed conconlusions.
17:53 < dc0de> it should be damaging. the process by which it came about was illegal, immoral, and was passed without any transparency.
17:53 <@aestetix> What really scares me is that this has really broken peoples trust in the government.
17:53 < dc0de> what aestetix says
17:54 <@aestetix> It's gonna make it harder for me to convince people to vote.
17:54 <@rattle> My fantasy in this situation would be to know what he has, and suggest what to release.  Because I feel like bad decisions are being made.
17:54 < dc0de> I stopped trusting our government when I found out that verizon provides access to the SSL keys that it runs/manages to the US Gov.
17:54 <@aestetix> dc0de: that was fucked up.
17:54 <@rattle> I'd like to see the bullshit exposed..  But I feel like things are being released just to cause issues for the US, rather than just the core goal of exposing the bullshit.
17:55 <@aestetix> Well, one thing worth pointing out
17:55 < dc0de> and not just for foriegn entities... like for banks, and other financial institutions... that most americans "trust" are secure.
17:55 <@aestetix> Snowden said he didn't bring any documents to Russia
17:55 <@aestetix> However, that doesn't mean he didn't tell them anything.
17:55 <@rattle> I don't support domestic spying, at all.  Gross shit like SSL key disclosure, even to facilitate forn comms monitoring goes too far.
17:56 < dc0de> the point is, now that the cat is out of the bag, how can we 1) Fix the problem of no oversight, and 2) put things in place that require the entire country to vote on such draconian changes in the future.
17:56 <@aestetix> Heh.
17:56 < dc0de> so that our governemnt can be stopped from dissovling our constitution.
17:56 <@aestetix> I love how we need to have better oversight of the court that was created to provide oversight on these issues.
17:56 <@rattle> But, disclosure about spying on allies is bullshit.  Everyone operating in these communities knows that goes on.  And if they say they don't, they are either lying or willfully naive.
17:56 <@rattle> Oh yeah, the biggest bad guy in all this:  CONGRESS
17:57 < dc0de> rattle: we are supposed to lie, that's what we're told to do.
17:57 <@aestetix> rattle: I do kind of feel like the disclosure about Merkel was a low blow.
17:57 <@rattle> Oversight is their role.
17:57 <@rattle> And they are FUCKING UP HUGE
17:57 <@aestetix> rattle: agreed. Everyone is blaming Obama. Some people are also blaming Feinstein.
17:57 < dc0de> it's not the fault of the intel community, it's the fault of the governemts, and their political lies.
17:57 <@aestetix> Although Feinstein is only one vote on that committee.
17:58 < dc0de> it's not just obama's fault, it's also GW's fault, patriot should have never been passed, and patriot II should have never been renewed.
17:58 <@rattle> It's Congress's job to make sure proper oversight is in place.  They have failed.
17:58 <@aestetix> Well, the media narrative in this is also telling.
17:58 <@rattle> That narrative needs to be made clear.  Congress fucked up, and that's how we got here.
17:58 <@aestetix> CNN keeps blaming Obama over and over again.
17:58 < dc0de> so there's shitton's of blame to go around...and no one in DC seems to want to change it.
17:58 < dc0de> aestetix: I don't watch the news... at all...
17:58 <@aestetix> dc0de: I don't blame you
17:58 < dc0de> so, I don't care what channel says what...
17:58 <@aestetix> dc0de: what I'm getting at is that media controls public outrage
17:59 < RangerZ> well, today is the last day for iGoogle... grr
17:59 <@aestetix> So when people are looking for someone to blame, why does CNN say Obama, rather than looking at who should be doing oversight?
17:59 <@rattle> The executive is doing what the executive does.  They deserve their blame, no fucking doubt there.  But really, why the fuck isn't Congress getting blame?  It's their JOB to limit the powers of the executive.
17:59 < RangerZ> now I need to find some page that allows me to combine the RSS/weather/etc I used to have on there
17:59 <@rattle> "YOU HAD ONE JOB"
17:59 <@aestetix> rattle: right
17:59 < dc0de> it doesn't really matter how blame is laid, currently, the ONLY people that are in a position to FIX the problem, are Obama and Congress.
17:59 < dc0de> if they don't act, then they are to blame.
17:59 < dc0de> period.
17:59 <@aestetix> Also agreed.
17:59 < RangerZ> rattle: the congress is suppose to give up its powers to the president
18:00 < dc0de> and judicial is fucking up by allowing this to continue.
18:00 <@rattle> RangerZ: What?  That's completely wrong.
18:00 < dc0de> there should be someone from Judicial stepping in and saying that "Hey, this is wrong, and not legal..."
18:00 < RangerZ> didn't you read the neo-con "empirial presidency" paper by rumsfeld/wolfawitz, chaney back after Ford lost re-election?
18:00 < RangerZ> LOL
18:00 <@Mirage> Step one for congress...enact a ruling stating that each bill should only encompass one issue.  IE..you can't stick a military spending bit in with an education bill, etc, etc.
18:01 < RangerZ> Mirage: you can't do that
18:01 < dc0de> I agree with tort reform, and the complete removal of ALL lobbiests
18:01 <@Mirage> That has been one of my biggest gripes on congress and how they do things
18:01 <@rattle> Mirage: So much for ever passing a budget agian.
18:01 < RangerZ> it would require a constitituional ammendment
18:01 < dc0de> a bill should ride on it's own, and if it can't it should then be left to the States to decide.
18:01 <@Mirage> A budget is concerned with money...so everything in that should have to with the budget...and only the budget.
18:01 < dc0de> but, I have work to do...
18:02 < dc0de> so you guys enjoy...
18:02 <@rattle> dc0de: Removing lobbyists would be nice.  Do you approve of the idea of increasing every congress member's staff by 10x?  And where do you draw the line between a lobbyist and think-tank?
18:02 < RangerZ> b/c SCOTUS declared that the congress back in the late 90s, early 00s, trying to pass a law stating how future congresses would work, was illegal (trying to put social security payments in a second bank account, that other programs couldn't touch/borrow against)
18:02 <@rattle> dc0de: And what rules would you suggest for how Congress interacts with SME's?
18:03 < RangerZ> Lobbying is NOT the problem, it is campaign financing
18:03 < RangerZ> and "money is free specch"
18:03 < RangerZ> god, i can't type
18:03 <@rattle> I agree with that
18:03 <@aestetix> RangerZ: too bad Feingold lost re-election
18:03 < RangerZ> lobbying is actually in the constitition
18:03 <@Mirage> I agree with campaign financing being screwed up as well.
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18:04 < RangerZ> i agree with aestetix being screwed up as well
18:04 < RangerZ> i agree with Evilpig_ not getting screwed up as well, (which is the root cause of a lot of problems)
18:04 <@aestetix> I'm not screwed up, I'm big boned.
18:04 < RangerZ> ok cartman
18:05 < RangerZ> you and your sword of a 1000s truths
18:05 < RangerZ> or w/e it was called
18:05 < RangerZ> but w/e I'm going to crash, .... who needs a sleep schedule...
18:11 <@Catonic> crash! woo!
18:11 <@Catonic> goodevening #se2600!!!
18:12 < RangerZ> http://www.vg247.com/2013/10/31/ubisoft-ending-uplay-passport-program-including-for-assassins-creed-4/ thats nice to see
18:12 < RangerZ> b/c not having access to SINGLE player parts of the game, was BS
18:13 < RangerZ> If I RENT a game before buying it, mini-games (management of your fleet of ships) (which is where you'll earn most of your money from) shouldn't be locked behind a coupon code
18:14 < RangerZ> fine... I can only play online while still having the disc... FINE, but online/offline being merged is 'blah' IMHO
18:14 < RangerZ> the next gen of games is going to be entirely that way it seems from MSFT, and sony some, hopefully it gets more backlash
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19:05 <@aestetix> rattle: besides the Merkel thing, are there any disclosures you think Snowden should not have leaked?
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19:54 <@Corydon76-home> aestetix: Merkel thing wasn't anything more specific than to say that because they had aggregated the data from German sources, people like the German chancellor were therefore also
19:55 <@Corydon76-home> Snowden previously stated that if he had access to Obama's cell phone number, he could look that up in the NSA database, as well
19:56 <@Corydon76-home> At the time it was stated, half the tech pundit pooh-poohed the statement, as they didn't believe that the NSA data collection was that large.
19:56  * aestetix nods
19:56 <@Corydon76-home> How times have changed in just a few months
19:56 <@Corydon76-home> But the same is true for the British prime minister, and even the Queen and royal family
19:56 <@Corydon76-home> Or the French president
19:57 <@Corydon76-home> Having all the metadata dumps means that nobody is excluded, ever.
19:57 <@aestetix> The big question is..... is it worth it?
19:57 <@Corydon76-home> No, the big question is, is it legal
19:58 <@aestetix> I'd argue that's the same thing.
19:58 <@Corydon76-home> No, it's not.
19:58 <@aestetix> But, point.
19:58 <@Corydon76-home> What the big banks did in the run up to the crash was legal.  But they clearly should not have done it
20:00 <@Corydon76-home> and I really don't think it's worth it
20:00 <@aestetix> So maybe both questions are important
20:01 <@Corydon76-home> The problem with the legal question is that the consequences for the government having broken the law aren't clear
20:01 <@Corydon76-home> You cannot fine the government; it's money coming out of the left pocket and into the right pocket
20:01 <@Corydon76-home> Nor can you imprison the government
20:02 <@Corydon76-home> Worst thing you can do is to tell them to stop it -- and whether they do or not, for a secretive agency, is impossible to know
20:03 <@Corydon76-home> Alexander and Clapper, at this point, should go to prison and be forbidden from profiting from their misdeeds, meaning, even if they should publish a book, any proceeds cannot enrich them
20:05 <@Corydon76-home> The only way I could see having any confidence in the NSA again is to declassify their entire budget for a period of 5 years or so, and root out all the funding for the stuff they shouldn't be doing
20:06 <@Corydon76-home> Even that's tricky, because as long as there is ANY secret budgetary items, it can be made to hide programs that they don't want exposed
20:07 <@Corydon76-home> So basically they'd move some surveillance programs over to the CIA or Defense Department, and Americans at large won't know the difference
20:42 <@Shadow404> so, whos awake and up for some cards against humanity?
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20:44 <@Shadow404> speak of the devil
20:44 <@Shadow404> hey jonny_X
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21:56 <@Catonic> I'm the debil
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 01 00:00:09 2013