--- Log opened Sun Mar 04 00:00:11 2012
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20:19 < rangerz> man... that sucks
20:19 < rangerz> just realized my g/f flies back on st. patty's day
20:20 <@brimstone> drinkin' alone
20:21 < rangerz> i'm so irish i don't even have to drink on st. patrick's day
20:22 < rangerz> though this area doesn't seem as highly irish centric as youngstown
20:23 < rangerz> all of our bars are irish bars there, even the italian resturants ,lol
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20:28 < rangerz> i honestly didn't realize you had to be 18+ to enter a bar until i was 18 or so, because i had grown up going to bars with my family and it just wasn't anything abnormal (though i didn't drink til i was 21)
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20:41 < eryc> depends if they serve food or not
20:42 < eryc> and if not they have to put X's or somehow track the underlings
20:42 < eryc> i am skeptical if it's actually a law that you have to be 18
20:42 < eryc> it's certainly the rule
20:45 <@opticron> we have a couple "bars" here that allow down to 16, iirc
20:45 <@opticron> they sell booze, but are more set to be a music venue
20:48 < northrup> I'm pretty sure that when TN established smoking bans part of that fringe was some age play in who was allowed into what bars
20:48 < northrup> because you're allowed to be a smoking bar if you limit the age of people that can enter to 21 and over
20:56 < rangerz> i thought TN didn't have any smoking bars at all
20:56 < rangerz> unless they were "clubs" or some bs like that
20:57 < rangerz> though personally i enjoy the non-smoking clubs/bars a lot better now
21:00 < northrup> we do have smoking bars that aren't clubs, though I'm with you - I actually enjoy the smokeless bar now
21:02 < rangerz> i used to hate it when i did lighting for a concert and there was smoking, i'd come home smelling like nothing but smoke b/c i'd have to be up at the ceiling running cables/etc
21:08 < rangerz> i don't know about TN, but in OH, all the businesses complained that people would stop going out if they couldn't smoke, but once it went into affect, then the rate of going went up 20%, lol
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21:56 <@Catonic> Someone brought there kids to a restaurant/bar here.
21:57 <@Catonic> pardon me, your seven-year-old is killing my buzz. I've lost an argument with a spoon, a telephone, and the toliet so far.
21:57 <@Catonic> please take your intellectual fascism somewhere else.
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22:55 <@Dagmar> t-h-e-i-r
22:56 <@Dagmar> Also, fucking senators are at it again'
22:56 <@Dagmar> Idiots claiming apps are stealing photos and contact lists and there MUST BE AN INVESTIGATION
22:56 <@Dagmar> I fail to see how this is any different from fucking malware-shipping ad banners.
23:04 < ZombieChicken> The senators are aware of it and annoyed by it
23:08 < rangerz> that or their children are, and told t-h-e-i-r parents to do something about it
23:10 <@Catonic> Ah. *shakes fist* Phonetics, you've failed me again!
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23:10 <@Catonic> Also, i before e except after C can bite my ass.
23:11 <@Dagmar> I think their concern is really that they don't want apps stealing pictures of their junk and mailing it to congressional aides
23:11 < ZombieChicken> or they don't want to be blackmailed regarding some questionable content they are afraid someone else might get
23:11 <@Catonic> Dagmar: You read the permissions before you install a free app.
23:11 <@Catonic> You want to read my contact data? Banninated.
23:11 <@Dagmar> I don't think Apple's system works that way
23:12 <@Dagmar> ...but yeah, for Android, it's a dumb fucking question.
23:12 <@Catonic> blame it on the father, the son, and the holy ghost of steve jobs
23:13 <@Dagmar> Frankly, I blame it on Microsoft
23:14 <@Catonic> Dude, don't hate
23:14 < rangerz> Catonic: nah apple just got slammed b/c EVERY app could read the contacts list
23:14 < rangerz> b/c the contacts list was global or something stupid like that
23:14 <@Dagmar> It's not hate.
23:14 <@Catonic> Microsoft has been doing the same thing everyone else wishes they could for years.
23:14 <@Dagmar> Fuckerberg got _caught_ hiring a company to shill lies and cause regulatory trouble for Google.
23:14 <@Catonic> Shipping alphacode and letting the users do the beta testing for you. FAQ == helpdesk tickets.
23:14 <@Dagmar> We all know Microsoft' budget for that shit is much, much larger.
23:15 < rangerz> windows 98 is the worlds largest beta test
23:15 <@Dagmar> This load of crap is pointed at Apple, and Google, because Microsoft has yet to manage to get a horse into the race.
23:15 <@Catonic> And yet it saddens me that this is our reality.
23:15 <@Dagmar> Who use WM on their phone?
23:15 <@Dagmar> People who don't have any other choice.
23:15 < rangerz> i have a feeling that windows 8 is going to fail pretty miserably
23:15 <@Catonic> rangerz: for real. Blue screen of Death...
23:16 <@Catonic> Nah, if they charge for Push Button Reset, M$ will be the richest company in the world in terms of GDP
23:16 < rangerz> MS adopted Android's basic platform concepts, renamed them, and then took options out
23:16 <@Catonic> "Shit fucked up? PBR. That'll be $30." "Oooh, bad luck. Got a virus. PBR? $50."
23:17 < rangerz> having done a fair amount of research into the inner workings of android's secuity policies, etc... all i can say... most people still don't program android apps correctly
23:17 < rangerz> and i highly doubt MS will be able to get people to shift that paradigm easily
23:17 <@Dagmar> What I find amusing is that they've done two things....
23:18 <@Dagmar> 1. Admitted they haven't the first clue about maintaining a coherent filesystem inventory
23:18 <@Dagmar> 2. Institutionalized "reinstall from scratch" as their chosen repair technique
23:18 <@Catonic> I don't want to live here anymore.
23:18  * Catonic blasts off
23:19  * rangerz cheers
23:19 < rangerz> Catonic: .... America is great
23:19 < rangerz> except for the south
23:19 < ZombieChicken> At least we have edible food
23:21 < rangerz> had... had... deep water horizon took care of that
23:23 <@Dagmar> rangerz: I'm starting to like it more and more
23:23 <@Dagmar> Assigning a uid per app is pretty sweet.  Heh
23:23 < rangerz> yeah
23:23 < rangerz> it actually makes a lot of sense
23:23 < rangerz> "just use linux's built in security as much as possible"
23:24 <@Dagmar> Yep
23:24 < rangerz> plus the dalvik VM is really impressive
23:24 < rangerz> register based, instead of stack based like java
23:24 < rangerz> and now has JIT
23:25 < rangerz> plus the military and darpa are pretty much in love with android as a platform
23:26 < rangerz> so i don't see anyone being able to stop them at this point
23:26 <@Dagmar> 1. It's open source now, meaning no one internally can say "there is a flaw" without being invited to fix it.
23:26 <@Dagmar> 2. It's open-source now.
23:26 <@Dagmar> :)
23:27 <@Dagmar> They can "own the problem" exactly to whatever degree they feel they need.
23:28 < rangerz> well my point was look at the RIM thing with the DoD, the DoD asked the courts to block the blockage of all RIM phones b/c they violated patents here in the US
23:28 <@Dagmar> I see what you're saying but, I don't think it's going to be applicable.
23:28 < rangerz> b/c the fed. gov't isn't bound by copyright or patents... they can just say "oh well... this patent would hurt the nation defense... go bugger off... we declare it unenforable"
23:29 <@Dagmar> The main problem being that we are running _seriously_ afoul of shitty software patents.
23:29 <@Dagmar> It is just fucking up software development now.
23:29 < rangerz> they did it with the airline industry from the end of WW1 until the 70s
23:29 <@Dagmar> Being open-source, no one's got an excuse to torpedo it
23:30 <@Dagmar> They _can_ but their claims will look like shit in court.
23:31 < rangerz> the US had almost no airplanes in WW1 despite them being invented in ohio and flown in nc. ... b/c the wright brothers were patent trolls and blocked all production that wasn't theirs... so the gov't said they couldn't do that b/c it was hurting the military , so they put all airline patents into a trust... and said they weren't enforcable
23:32 <@Dagmar> Yeah and that is not so nearly likely to happen with Android being essentially Linux.
23:32 < rangerz> no, but there are precidents, and if Apple or MS goes off the handle and tries to go full "thermonuclear war"
23:33 <@Dagmar> Regardless of the fucked up things in the patent system, keeping this stuff out in the open is the best way to defend against other motherfuckers claiming their "invention" was stolen from them.
23:33 < rangerz> it gives me hope that SOMEONE in the gov't would be like... alright children... sit the hell down
23:33 < rangerz> thats not quite true though
23:33 < rangerz> b/c it doesn't matter if it was stolen or thought up independantly
23:33 < rangerz> that only changes the awards
23:33 <@Dagmar> That is one of the problems.
23:34 < rangerz> 3x if it is proven you knew the patent existed
23:34 <@Dagmar> THe moment someone is stupid enough to make it "painful" enough for the system, all the stakeholders will step in
23:34 < rangerz> hell look at "one click" shopping patent
23:35 <@Catonic> patents are the original open source
23:36 <@Catonic> otoh, patents, like copyrights, should have fixed expiration dates
23:36 <@Catonic> and software patents should age in dog years
23:37 <@Catonic> how many standard commands are there in C, Java or Python?
23:37 <@Catonic> What if I write a program to write out every single combination there of and apply for a patent with all of those as claims?
23:37 <@Catonic> *thereof
23:38 <@Dagmar> You'd be paying the GDP in patent application fees
23:38 < ZombieChicken> and fighting every major software corp in existence
23:38 < ZombieChicken> with a mix of 'he violated our patent' and other such BS
23:39 <@Dagmar> The lack of consideration of independent innovation is the #1 problem we've got
23:40 <@Catonic> Sure, it'd cost the GDP, but it would effectively mean that whatever language it's written in would effectively become my property, forcing everyone to pay The Catonic Tax if the they have an app written in it.
23:40 < rangerz>  ohh it is even worse now
23:40 < ZombieChicken> I think part of it is that companies don't need to innovate. They just keep making money off age old patents and slap something new up whenever their employees have a good idea
23:40 < rangerz> we're the only nation on earth that has made their patent system "First to market"or some BS like that not "first to patent"
23:41 < ZombieChicken> You sure about that?
23:41 < rangerz> which HEAVILY favors big corp.s
23:41 < rangerz> yes
23:41 < rangerz> MS was one of the big backers of it
23:41 < ZombieChicken> last I heard first to file was the standard
23:41 < rangerz> it was
23:41 < rangerz> changed like 2 years ago
23:41 <@Catonic> "Patent Pending"
23:41 < rangerz> almost no one talked about it
23:41 < rangerz> almost 0 news coverage
23:42 < ZombieChicken> How much does it cost to file for a patent anyways?
23:43 < rangerz> lie 40$ or something
23:43 <@Catonic> $500 something per claim
23:43 <@Catonic> One patent has multiple claims, typically...
23:44 <@Catonic> and they are tedious... one much search for prior and related work... then explain, in legal terms, engineering terms.
23:44 < rangerz> really? i thought it was cheaper.... but only cost that much if you wanted a patent search first hand
23:44 <@Catonic> no, that's in addition to the patent search.
23:44 <@Catonic> You're talking about being out $2500 minimum for something dirt-ass simple *if* you file for yourself.
23:45 < rangerz> but avoid for the love of god... those "we help inventors get patented" commercials
23:45 < rangerz> they have gotten like 8 patents in the past 20years or something silly like that
23:48 < ZombieChicken> what is the cost for defending a patent? Any idea on that?
23:51 < rangerz> a loan from google
23:51 <@Corydon76-work> You basically need a staff attorney to pursue it
23:51 < rangerz> dependon on who is suing you
23:52 <@Corydon76-work> You will run yourself dry otherwise
23:55 <@Catonic> a patent is a double-edge sword
23:56 <@Catonic> it's an impressive legal tool, but you *have* to constantly search and sue infringers
23:56 <@Catonic> it's really lawyer welfare
23:56 <@Corydon76-work> No, you don't.  That's trademark law
23:56 <@Catonic> because no lawyer wants to do that kind of boring work... but it is why they went to school
23:56 <@Corydon76-work> You don't lose a patent for failing to sue
23:56 <@Corydon76-work> You do lose a trademark for failing to defend
23:57 <@Corydon76-work> You _may_ lose some damages if they can prove you know they were infringing for a substantial period before you sue, however
23:58 <@Corydon76-work> i.e. if you wait until their entire business is depending upon your patent before you sue
23:59 <@Corydon76-work> But if they can't prove that you knew, then you could wait 5 years in, and then sue
--- Log closed Mon Mar 05 00:00:01 2012