--- Log opened Sun Jul 24 00:00:17 2011
--- Day changed Sun Jul 24 2011
00:00 <@Dagmar> What's bugging me is that I've not heard anything concrete yet about specifically WTF Oracle is claiming
00:00 < RangerZ> I've read one of the patents, and personally... it shouldn't have been granted...
00:00 < RangerZ> ohh
00:00 < RangerZ> its two patents
00:00 < RangerZ> atleast in _this_ lawsuit
00:01 <@Dagmar> Yeah but it sounds like they're suing them for using Java which makes no sense
00:01 < RangerZ> yeah... i honestly don't know the inner-specifics
00:01 < RangerZ> i think they are suing over the patents
00:01 < RangerZ> saying that "if you use java at all in any way... then you must violate these patents"
00:02 < RangerZ> the funniest part is that Dalvik doesn't use any java code in it
00:02 <@Dagmar> Which is nutso because every other day of the week they're sure all about "HEY EVERYONE LET'S USE JAVA EVERYWHERE!"
00:02 < RangerZ> android SDK takes java .class files as input and recompiles them for register based computation vs stack based
00:03 <@Dagmar> This will really suck if it turns out to be like that SCO shit where they tried to sue over headers
00:03 < RangerZ> ohh... the patent is really BS too
00:03 < RangerZ> contains a bunch of 1960s tech combined
00:03 <@Dagmar> Engineers at both companies would be facepalming over that
00:03 < RangerZ> like a "parser" and a "database"
00:04 <@Dagmar> *eyepinch*
00:04 <@Dagmar> That shit has to go
00:04 <@Dagmar> It's fucking us over as a nation
00:04 < RangerZ> into a system that "reads a string", parses it, and then determines what to do with it, based off a list of programs that have a related attribute to use that possible data"
00:04 <@Dagmar> Some of this shit is way too close to that sophomoric game with fortune cookies
00:04 < RangerZ> thats basically all it is
00:05 <@Dagmar> i.e, read fortune cookie, add "in bed" to the end.
00:05 < RangerZ> actually "except in bed" is tending to be funnier, but i agree
00:05 <@Dagmar> ..and I keep seeing fucking patents for basically "do normal thing" then add "on the internet" or "on a computer" to the end, file patent, lol
00:05 <@Dagmar> Fucking playlsits
00:06 <@Dagmar> What the fuck is up with someone even thinking they should apply for a patent on a fucking preprogrammed playlist
00:06 <@Dagmar> How they fuck did they even GET that patent
00:06 < RangerZ> the courts
00:06 <@Dagmar> Fucking RCA deserves full credit for that oe
00:06 < RangerZ> they have been cutting the power of the patent office to declare patents novel
00:06 <@Dagmar> THey're the people that as far as I know invented the mechanical armature to flip to the next vinly record
00:07 <@Dagmar> Stack of records == playlist
00:07 <@Dagmar> It makes me hate the very idea of trying to bring a product to market.
00:08 <@Dagmar> Just kNOWING that at some point, some fuckface legal team is going to come down and effecively claim they invented whatever it is I've done
00:08 <@Bahhumbug> The USPO has been broken for decades.
00:08 < RangerZ> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100813/00004910613.shtml
00:08 < RangerZ> there is the list of the patents oracle is suing google over
00:08 <@Dagmar> I think in future years it'll be seen as an accellerating factor in consolidation of wealth into the hands of corporations
00:09 <@Dagmar> We need to get Lessig running around talking to people full time
00:09 < RangerZ> i about cried when last night i heard that the income gap in the US is now higher than was in the banana republics
00:09 <@Dagmar> Yeah it's gotten RIDICULOUS in a very short fucking span of time
00:09 < RangerZ> i'm 27
00:09 < RangerZ> and i have SEEN the change
00:10 < RangerZ> i'd say since 2000 or so
00:10 <@Dagmar> I'm pushing 40 and I've definitely seen it
00:10 < RangerZ> before then, maybe it was going on a lot
00:10 < RangerZ> but i started to notice myself around 2003 or so
00:10 <@Dagmar> Spending the last few years basically watching CNN constantly and reading between hte lines hasn't hurt either
00:11 < RangerZ> i've found CNN to be TOO nutral , they try to give both sides of arguments even one doesn't need it
00:11 <@Dagmar> There's a degree to which wataching what the news wants to talk about is more informative than actually giving a shit about what they're saying
00:11 < RangerZ> "a scientist came out to day saying grass isn't green, others argue it is"
00:12 <@Dagmar> I'm really waiting to see some economist come out with a nice terrifying paper about what happens when you let the FED do what they were doing
00:12 < RangerZ> I'm actually hoping that this News Corp. scandel will help to clean up the news on both sides of atlantic
00:12 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: proof is in the pudding
00:13 < RangerZ> the problem is that the FED isn't part of the government
00:13 <@Dagmar> Corydon: Yeah but looking back at it it's like it's practically a fucking mathematical property of economics
00:13 < RangerZ> so therefore it doesn't have enough oversight
00:13 <@Dagmar> Oversight doesn't really have anything to do with the actual problem
00:13 <@Corydon76-home> Economics has little to do with mathematics
00:13 <@Corydon76-home> Economics is a confidence game
00:13 <@Dagmar> The problem being that the banks were loaning out sums of money that didn't acutally exist
00:13 < RangerZ> Corydon76-home: thats pretty much what an Econ prof told me too
00:14 <@Dagmar> THink of it this way
00:14 < RangerZ> Dagmar: thats the entire CONCEPT of fractional reserve
00:14 <@Dagmar> A ten dollar bill represents one yard mowed.
00:14 <@Dagmar> I.e, one medium-sized errand.
00:14 <@Dagmar> Rangerz: Well, follow me carefully because I think it might be a broken concept
00:14 < RangerZ> the REAL problem is that we allowed too few banks to become dominant
00:14 <@Dagmar> Nonono
00:15 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: that's all banks, not the federal reserve.  The Fed only sets the rates at which banks must keep a reserve
00:15 <@Dagmar> The isuse is that that unit of money is supposed to basically represent _work performed_
00:15 < RangerZ> if we had fewer banks, and more diversity we could have easily absorbed the failing of a couple of banks, without the citizens being boned
00:15 <@Corydon76-home> otherwise, banks are welcome to lend money back out
00:15 <@Dagmar> If you basically swap $10 money with someone else, you can be basically paying each other for mowing each other's yards, by proxy
00:16 <@Dagmar> the important bit... work _performed_
00:16 <@Dagmar> You pay a contractor for their work for you, they pay you if you do work for them, right?
00:16 <@Corydon76-home> in theory
00:17 <@Dagmar> So what happens when one side of this is handing out notes for work performed when *no work was done*
00:17 <@Corydon76-home> You're starting to talk about bartering, though, which is the precursor to money
00:17 <@Dagmar> The money the FED _created_ to loan to the banks, so they could loan it to people and buisnesses and make a profit was basically a huge pile of yards that didn't get mowed.
00:18 <@Corydon76-home> You're proposing that a bank loan isn't work?
00:18 <@Dagmar> Only if the money the bank lent out actually represented _performed_ work
00:18 <@Corydon76-home> The Fed didn't create the money
00:18 < RangerZ> Dagmar: they didn't create anything, they printed money, on order of the federal govt
00:18 <@Dagmar> No but they did on a regular basis
00:18 < RangerZ> which said that it now had more money
00:19 <@Corydon76-home> No, the money issued by the Fed is based upon a bond sold
00:19 < RangerZ> basically it just devalued the US dollar
00:19 < RangerZ> nothing more
00:19 < RangerZ> nothing less
00:19 <@Dagmar> Yes and that bond is also... just paper
00:19 <@Dagmar> Nothing was done to actually create wealth
00:19 <@Corydon76-home> That bond is a promise to repay, with interest
00:19 <@Dagmar> That you can stretch out infinitely
00:19 <@Dagmar> It's basically an empty hole you can't fill
00:20 < RangerZ> no its not
00:20 <@Corydon76-home> Not always
00:20 < RangerZ> clinton left office with a surplus
00:20 <@Corydon76-home> right now, with spending outpacing revenue, that's true, but we had a stint in the late nineties where we had a surplus
00:20 < RangerZ> which after 2020 (30 years after he left office)(the last bonds we had at the time) would have been paid off
00:21 < RangerZ> sorry, 2030*
00:21 <@Corydon76-home> RangerZ: I'm pretty sure that's not true
00:21 <@Dagmar> Either way it results in the banking system being ground zero on inflation so hard that peopl got rich by merely being closer to it
00:21 <@Corydon76-home> Even during the surplus, new bonds were sold to replace bonds that came due for which the surplus was short
00:21 < RangerZ> the surplus Clinton left was there after paying the interest and principle payments of the bonds we had outstanding
00:22 <@Corydon76-home> RangerZ: No, it wasn't
00:22 < RangerZ> hmm... let me phrase this better ....
00:23 <@Dagmar> So what controls the rate at which new bonds are issued
00:23 <@Corydon76-home> The surplus only existed taking into account interest payments.  Some of the surplus was able to pay off some principal, but very little
00:23 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: the debt limit
00:24 <@Corydon76-home> and the need for the federal government to borrow when it cannot meet its obligations
00:24 < RangerZ> but he WAS paying down the principle, which i though was 2030 for the target for paying them all off (b/c of compound interest working progessively less against us)
00:25 <@Corydon76-home> RangerZ: No, not even close.
00:25 < RangerZ> but in either case, we were decreasing our national debt
00:25 <@Corydon76-home> Yes, we were
00:26 <@Dagmar> We devalued our currency by allowing banks to loan out more assets than they had
00:26 < RangerZ> no, those two things are unrelated
00:26 <@Corydon76-home> Inflation right now is nominal.  Economists agree that even with no government debt, you're gong to have inflation, and we're in no worse inflation because of the debt
00:26 <@Corydon76-home> That doesn't devalue currency
00:27 <@Dagmar> I would disagree
00:27 <@Corydon76-home> Banks loaning out money simply expands the money supply, albeit temporarily
00:27 < RangerZ> if we only had 1000$ USD in existance, and let banks use fractional reserve, it still wouldn't mean those 1000 USD are worth less
00:27 <@Corydon76-home> but the value of the dollar is not intrinsically changed through bank loans
00:27 <@Corydon76-home> Value of the dollar only decreases through inflation
00:27 <@Dagmar> It is when to make those loans they borrow money from the FED
00:27 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: but they don't
00:28 <@Dagmar> They very much did
00:28 < RangerZ> not normally
00:28 <@Corydon76-home> Banks only borrow temporarily from the Fed.  Overnight is it.
00:28 < RangerZ> all the loans the fed gave out like that, was quickly returned
00:29 <@Corydon76-home> If a bank could not cover its obligations, it would be taken over and wound down by FDIC
00:29 < RangerZ> it was basically the same as payrol loans
00:29 < RangerZ> take a small loan out for a few days so you can do payroll, then pay it back after you collect your incoming revenue
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00:34 <@Corydon76-home> What got banks into trouble en masse were the credit default swaps, a derivative that functioned like insurance, but because they were derivatives, not true insurance, they weren't regulated like insurance.  Basically, they all started seeing defaults at the same time and those CDOs, which were meant to balance their liability, turned out to be worthless
00:34 < RangerZ> Dagmar: the real problem was the banks made spin off companies, that they called "Rating agencies" that would rate loans , and those companies were rating things like crap
00:34 < RangerZ> they would bundle a ton of crap loans to high risk people and then call that "A ranked" bundle
00:35 <@Corydon76-home> RangerZ: that's only a problem from the perspective of the buyers of those packaged loans
00:37 <@Corydon76-home> and these packaged loans weren't even real loans.  They basically sold off liability for, e.g. 5% of a set of loans that might default, 5-10%, 10-15%, etc.  Worthless, unless the package of loans didn't default at all, or at least didn't default higher than the lowest percentage in the bundle
00:37 < RangerZ> but banks were using those as credit for their fractional reserve holdings
00:38 <@Corydon76-home> It really comes down to the fact that banks found ways to sell crap by evading the regulations that would otherwise have ensured that the buyer knew they were getting crap
00:38 < RangerZ> agreed
00:39 <@Corydon76-home> and instead of holding onto that money as reserve, they turned around and made new loans with it
00:40 <@Corydon76-home> So once a certain number of loan recipients defaulted, the string pulled down the whole house of cards
00:40 < RangerZ> and unfortunately most US debt is tied to home loans
00:40 < RangerZ> so when house values went down , it became a death spiral
00:41 <@Corydon76-home> Not federal debt, no.  Just debt in terms of the populace
00:41 < RangerZ> most by volume*
00:41 < RangerZ> of citizens
00:42 <@Corydon76-home> The government only got involved to the point of not allowing those banks to fail, because if no banks will make loans, the economic cycle freezes up
00:42 < RangerZ> to be honest, i'm just really grateful that i'm not entering the job market right now
00:43 < RangerZ> hopefully in 5~7 years the entire system will stabilize (god i hope it is faster)
00:43 < RangerZ> (and i was including unemployment in that "system")
00:43 <@Corydon76-home> Now, if the banks continued to make loans at the same rate, with government money backing them up, we would have already seen a huge recovery.  It's because they got burnt that they stopped making loans anyway, that the economy is still slow
00:45 < RangerZ> what you mean "uncertainty" isn't the reason? lol
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00:46 <@Corydon76-home> It's only when regulators are given the tools to ensure that the banking industry cannot again make shit up to evade regulations that we'll avoid this boom-bust economic cycle
00:47 <@Corydon76-home> Actual Congressional regulations aren't sufficient -- the regulators need the flexibility to move in quickly on the banks when they try to pull another fast one
00:48 <@Corydon76-home> And they will try again.  The profit motive is too great for them to remember their lesson for very long
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 24 06:16:41 2011
--- Log opened Sun Jul 24 07:33:27 2011
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07:33 < Shadow404> what up slackers
07:33 < Shadow404> wtf, 37 users
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07:40 <@Evilpig> nothing.  i'm getting into bed
07:41 < Shadow404-Tab> good for you
07:41 < Shadow404-Tab> whos going to defcon
07:41 <@Evilpig> dcode, merlin, skydog, you.  not sure who else
07:42 < Shadow404> you?
07:42 < Shadow404> or no
07:43 <@Evilpig> no money this year
07:43 <@Evilpig> planning on next
07:43 < Shadow404> ah, i understand completely
07:43 < Shadow404> now that im free, got a lot more money saved
07:44 <@Evilpig> i'm saving a little right now.  trying to still get things settled.
07:47 < Shadow404> i wanna make a geek rap video
07:48 < Shadow404> from the ones ive seen, they are halarious
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09:27 < ware> Shadow404: you got divorced?
09:32 < Shadow404> yep
09:32 < Shadow404> and dating like a mofo
09:33 <@brimstone> you're dating moms now?
09:33 < Shadow404> dude, i wish
09:33 < Shadow404> na, oddly enough, im actually dating 21yr olds
09:33 < Shadow404> first time, im not dating older than me
09:38 < RangerZ> Shadow404: nerd core: Dual Core
09:39 < RangerZ> intx80 is pretty good, though i still prefer his first CD over anything else
09:48  * Corydon76-home poketh Shadow404
09:49 < Shadow404> ello corydon
09:50 <@Corydon76-home> How's it hangin'?
09:50 < Shadow404> doing good, doing good
09:50 < Shadow404> going to the moves in a bit here
09:50 < Shadow404> went to the aquarium yesterday
09:50 < Shadow404> so keeping myself busy
09:50 < Shadow404> with the laddiiess (homestar voice)
09:51 <@Corydon76-home> No men yet?  ;-)
09:57 < Shadow404> no, i havent found one as charming as you yet!
09:58 <@Corydon76-home> Heh
10:02 < Shadow404> who decided to schedule everything for thursday night?
10:03 < Shadow404> i mean, whos bright idea was that
10:07 < ware> lulz
10:13 < ware> Dagmar:
10:13 < ware> I am currently watching Dexter, the series about that forensic mass murderer. Quite
10:13 < ware> hilarious. I’m also looking forward to watch the new movie-series about Carlos the Jackal
10:13 < ware> (the Marxist-Islamist and Che wannabe scumbag). Hopefully, it will be as good as the
10:13 < ware> Baader Meinhof Complex. I really enjoyed that one. Oh, and I’m also playing Fallout 3 –
10:13 < ware> New Vegas atm after just finishing Bioshock 2. I’m also going to try the new World of
10:13 < ware> Warcraft - Cataclysm when it is released in December. Time to dust of my mage…
10:13 < ware> that was that guy
10:13 < ware> ye
10:15 < RangerZ> Diablo 3 ftw
10:15 < RangerZ> is all i have to say, though who knows how it will actually be, i'm hoping good
10:23 < scribbles> check out the Zeboyd games 16-bit rpg's that were just put on steam ;)
10:23 < scribbles> good throwback fun
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12:21 < cerkit> they tried to make join up with lulzsec, and i said no-no-no
12:21 < cerkit> aww
12:21 < cerkit> i ruinted it
12:21 < cerkit> they tried to make ME join up with lulzsec, and i said no-no-no
13:09 <@Dagmar> yay porn http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motorola-Xoom-Teardown/4989/1
13:53 <@sdodson> morotola xoom sucks from what i've heard
14:09 <@Dagmar> Like anyone, anywhere cares what you think.
14:20 <@Dagmar> Adys: Squirrels must be stealing yer headend routers
15:16 <@sdodson> Dagmar: Your reading comprehension is poor. I didn't say that's what I thought. It's what friends of mine have said in addition to tech writers.
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16:15 < cerkit> Come on, Tom.
16:15 < cerkit> LEt's finish this how we started it.
16:15 < cerkit> Together.
16:15 < cerkit> hahaha
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19:58 < Shadow404> samsung galaxy tab is good so far
19:58 < Shadow404> just waiting for netflix app to be ready is a pain
20:14 <@sdodson> Shadow404: when is that expected?
20:43 < cerkit> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/FinancialRegulationsLa
20:43 < Shadow404> not sure actually
20:43 < Shadow404> kinda depressing
20:43 < cerkit> ah, how I love watching Ben Bernanke bullshit mofos
20:43 < Shadow404> but i needed a portable device for defcon, so i got the galaxy tab
20:44 < cerkit> hmmm
20:44 < cerkit> galaxy
21:05 <@Dagmar> Oh NOW he expects me to believe he has friends.
21:15 <@sdodson> Dagmar: :)
21:17 < Shadow404> sdodson has no friends, just shelly, which is what he calls his right hand
21:17 < Shadow404> i issed irc
21:17 < Shadow404> (missed
21:58 <@Dagmar> Just plant them under trees
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 25 00:00:47 2011