--- Log opened Fri Jul 08 00:00:35 2011
00:08 < RangerZ> so did the druids... but Christianity decided they didn't like those records staying around... so...
00:09 < RangerZ> lol
00:09 <@Bahhumbug> yeah, well, the LDS records are still intact :)
00:10 <@Bahhumbug> it's one of the sources my wife uses in her genealogy work)
00:15 <@dasunt> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/wwddd
00:15 <@dasunt> Bahhumbug: No, protestantism.
00:15 <@dasunt> Damnit.
00:15 <@dasunt> I'm half surprised I haven't found Swedenborgians in my ancestry.
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00:20 < RangerZ> doesn't sweeden have a required military service? those records might be of use
00:42 < RangerZ> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110707/17335615002/wikileaks-can-receive-visa-mastercard-donations-again-visa-doesnt-understand-why.shtml thats funny... Visa: We don't know how/why...
00:43 <@dasunt> Maybe.
00:43 <@dasunt> I should look.
00:43 <@dasunt> The problem is the Norwegian side and the Swedish side was under the control of Sweden until 1905.
00:44 < RangerZ> ohh , thats recent though
00:44 < RangerZ> unless they decided to start "purging" records
00:45 <@dasunt> Yep.
00:45 <@dasunt> Dunno.
00:45 <@dasunt> May have to visit Sweden one day.  Not that I'd really mind doiung that.  ;)
00:46 < RangerZ> you just want the sweedish girls
00:46 < RangerZ> i was going to say "(or guys)" ... but on 2nd thought... i stick with just the girls... lol
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06:47 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
08:19 <@Evilpig> keep it down
08:27 <@e2>  ___   ___ ___ ___     ___  _  _   _   ___   _____ _  _   _   ___ _
08:27 <@e2> |_ _| / __| __|   \   / _ \| || | /_\ |_ _| |_   _| || | /_\ | _ \ |
08:27 <@e2>  | |  \__ \ _|| |) | | (_) | __ |/ _ \ | |    | | | __ |/ _ \|   /_|
08:27 <@e2> |___| |___/___|___/   \___/|_||_/_/ \_\___|   |_| |_||_/_/ \_\_|_(_)
08:27 <@e2>                                                                     
08:27 <@e2> it's friday yall!
09:20 <@Husky> i wanna get down on friday
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10:13 < eryc> friday friday
10:14 <@Husky> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
10:14 <@Husky> last shuttle lauch comin :(
10:14 < eryc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jduDKGWUc
10:15 < eryc> i thought it was cancelled
10:15 <@brimstone> you're cancelled
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10:15 <@Husky> not yet
10:15 <@Husky> still a chance due to weather
10:49 <@Dagmar> It's up
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12:39 <@the_hugme> ugh, can I go home yet?
12:39 <@Husky> n
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14:51 <@Dagmar> Why does sed always have to be such a BITE IN THE ASS
14:51 <@Dagmar> It makes me want to kill.
15:02 <@e2> want
15:15 <@Dagmar> sed -i -e 's/\'AUTH_KEY\',         \'put your unique phrase here\'/WHYUNOWORKDAMNIT/' wp-config.php
15:16 <@Dagmar> SOMEHOW there is a ' hiding
15:18 < Mercster> escape the ,?
15:19 < Mercster> in sed , is a valid field seperator
15:19 <@Dagmar> You know, even though , is not anything like a special character there, I actually already tried that
15:19 <@Dagmar> sed -i -e 's/\'AUTH_KEY\'         \'put your unique phrase here\'/WHYUNOWORKDAMNIT/' wp-config.php
15:19 < Mercster> s,foo,bar,g is the same as s/foo/bar/g
15:19 <@Dagmar> No comma, same this
15:19 <@Dagmar> s/this/shit/
15:20 <@Dagmar> Mercster: yeah but it's the first character after the s that sets the delimiter
15:28 <@Dagmar> Seriously.  What.  The.  Fuck.
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15:32 < eryc> why not use "" around the -e ""
15:32 < eryc> then you don't have to escape the '
15:32 < eryc> and is that a tab instead of spaces after the ,
15:36 <@Dagmar> Actually I finally just found out you _can't_ escape things within single quotes
15:36 <@Dagmar> That's been the problem all along
15:36 <@Dagmar> !@#@!#!
15:36 < eryc> oh yea, that too
15:36 <@Dagmar> o.O
15:36  * Dagmar gets a knife.
15:36 <@Dagmar> heh
15:36 < eryc> you can do it like this i think 's/blah'''blah//'
15:36  * Mercster plays with google+
15:38 < rattleXw> Google plus doesn't work with Google Apps accounts, which is fucking lame.
15:39 < eryc> umm.. yea it does
15:39 < eryc> at least, I invited someone on their apps account and they managed to join
15:39 < rattleXw> No, it doesn't.  It requires Google Profiles, and Google Apps doesn't currently support Google Profiles.
15:39 < eryc> WELL THEY JOINED!
15:40 <@Dagmar> Basically, it wokrs with gmail.com addresses
15:41 < eryc> rattleXw: ask ilsundal how he joined with his apps account
15:41 < rattleXw> He must have received the invite to his apps account, but used a normal gmail account to actually sign up.  That's what people have been doing.
15:42 < eryc> ah, word
15:42 < rattleXw> However, it blows because Google+ basically starts managing your contacts..  So if you use your Google Apps for PIM, you are basically screwed.
15:43 < rattleXw> And I'm assuming that when Google gets profiles for apps, so + works, they aren't going to have a way to port over your profile.  Hence, everything will be split up and suck.
15:44 < rattleXw> So I'm just going to boycott the thing until Google stops treating enterprise users like second class citizens.
15:44 <@Dagmar> Gmail has a single namespace.
15:44 <@Dagmar> Google Apps does not.
15:45 < rattleXw> I'm still pissed that they haven't made it possible to switch an App instance's primary domain yet either.
15:45 < rattleXw> That's been "coming" for a long time as well, much like profiles.
15:45 < rattleXw> Google basically sucks at support, no matter how you define support.
15:46 < rattleXw> If their stuff works for you, great.  If it doesn't, you are basically screwed.
15:47 < rattleXw> ... and don't even get me started on security.  They don't give enterprise users the ability to audit shit.
15:47 <@Dagmar> I think lulzsec pretty much established that practically no one audits a goddamn thing anyhoo
15:47 < rattleXw> For instance, an individual user (even for normal gmail) can view active sessions to their account.  However, an apps manager can't view active sessions for their entire instance.
15:47 < rattleXw> Hence, you've got no way to audit for signs of account compromise.
15:48 < rattleXw> Making Google Apps a fucking death sentence if you have sophisticated attackers targeting you.
15:50 < rattleXw> Lulzsec...  Whatever.  The script kiddies have consistently been going after weak targets.
15:50 < eryc> Can you do that with any hosted email product?
15:51 < rattleXw> I'll be impressed when I see anonymous successfully breech Lockheed, GE, or any of the F500's that actually take security seriously.
15:51 < rattleXw> PBS, Sony, and some ass backwards PDs don't impress me.
15:51 <@Dagmar> In theory that site in Atlanta should have been taking shit seriously...
15:51 <@Dagmar> ...and then you see that someone's fucking password is actually 'Richard'.
15:51 <@Dagmar> What.  The.  Fuck.
15:51 < rattleXw> MS's hosting offers some fairly hardcore audit capabilities.
15:52  * rattleXw is trying very hard to resist going on an Infragard rant...
15:53 < rattleXw> I've found my happy place again..  ahhh..
15:54 < Mercster> it involves daydreams of bloodshed, doesnt it
15:54 < eryc> it's kinda cool that when you search google it has a spot for your google+ notifications
15:54 < rattleXw> Although, I'm really wary of a few things about Live365.  They have an opportunity to get some shit really right, but it's not clear if they are yet.  I'm pressing them.
15:55 < eryc> now you can't escape the social network!
15:55 <@Dagmar> I like how their FOPE shit will suddenly decide to deliver mail to it's destination instead of GIVING IT BACK TO YOU
15:55 <@Dagmar> ...and then it'll hand you the bounce message that it had to generate because the remote MX told it to fuck right off.
15:55 < rattleXw> We did a cost breakdown including everything from metal to personnel, comparing moving to Live365 and upgrading to Exchange 2010.  There isn't a win either way.
15:56 < eryc> it's also interesting that MS released their mobile tracking code
15:56 < rattleXw> Same thing goes with every actually, serious, capable, hosted solution.
15:56 < rattleXw> All the crap you hear about cloud this and cloud that is so full of horse shit.  So few people know what the hell they are talking about.
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15:57 < rattleXw> Regardless of how the typical cloud evangelist defines it, based on the way people use it, the cloud is that which isn't understood or under your control.
15:57 < Mercster> cloud you, cloud everybody
15:57 < rattleXw> In the end, if a service is made available, it's running on equipment somewhere, someone is being paid to run it, and that cost finds it's way to you.
15:58 < rattleXw> On an individual level it's one thing..  But on the enterprise level, there is still much "the cloud" market has to do to be anything other than a fucking buzzword.
15:59 <@Dagmar> Ah but that's the important thing
15:59 < rattleXw> Give me netflow, or give me death!
15:59 < rattleXw> And where the fuck is my SEIM?!
15:59 < rattleXw> Oh..  You can't give me any control over my network?  Or any way to have an audit trail that's trustworthy?
15:59 <@Dagmar> Don't pay your fucking people so that you accumulate morons and asskissers, and then pay some outside company to do the important shit for you with promises that their people aren't as much a bunch of fuckups as yours are.
15:59 < Mercster> i have a friend who works for eucalyptus
15:59 < rattleXw> Erm..  but it's cheap, right?  Yeah, until your first breech occurs and you can't even scope the fucking thing.
15:59 < Mercster> we're constantly making fun of him for the cloud
16:00 <@Dagmar> Shit like this is probably the ONLY reason Sharepoint is in use *any fucking where*
16:00 < rattleXw> At least if you have a Sharepoint instance, you can audit it's usage and place security controls around it.
16:00 <@Dagmar> That is if it doesn't just explode on you
16:01 <@Dagmar> ...and if you managed to export and reimport the DB between even minor releases without it savaging all your documents.
16:01 < rattleXw> If you use Google Docs, you are fucked.  No audit trails.  No way to layer security controls.
16:01 <@Dagmar> No shit, really?
16:01 < rattleXw> Well, they did staple on some two-factor auth.
16:01 < rattleXw> That's a good move..
16:01 <@Dagmar> We could also blame sharks for not being born with lasers built in
16:02 < rattleXw> But if you want something as simple as a log of session authentications / accesses..  You are SOL.
16:02 <@Dagmar> It's just a document repo.  It's not meant to follow a mandatory labeling system, man
16:03 < rattleXw> Not really relevant.  MAC/labeling isn't particle in the enterprise either.  Data classification in the enterprise doesn't follow a strict hierarchy like an SCI classification system.
16:03 < rattleXw> But layered security controls are very praticale.
16:03 <@Dagmar> Either way, it's _just_ meant to be a document repo
16:04 < rattleXw> Endpoint level, network level, application level..  Security event patter tracking..  All that shit is relevant, possible, and can be done defense-in-depth style.
16:05 < rattleXw> Like, if you have a document repo, and it's got it's own access control..  And you've got network level access control as well.  And you've got a SEIM tracking everything that happens on both levels..  You've at least got something..
16:05 < rattleXw> If you've got a repo that's got it's own internal access control, then no additional controls or audit capability, you've not got something you can trust.
16:05 < eryc> maybe you could build a gmail proxy with SEIM
16:06 <@Dagmar> I have an easier idea.
16:07 <@Dagmar> Stop expecting a simple fuckin' website to provide obsessively complex auditing and access controls.
16:07 < rattleXw> Yeah, you could MITM SSL to gmail, parse the fuck out of it, and pump it into a SEIM..  But you can't limit the gmail/gapps instance to only accept connections from the point you do your MITM.
16:07 < rattleXw> And also, that'd be fucking HARD.
16:07 < eryc> yea but the gmail passwords could be insane
16:07 <@Dagmar> Might as well be throwing a fit because MS-DOS still doesn't handle Bell-Lapadula
16:07 < rattleXw> There are some *aaS vendors that get it...  Salesforce have been consistently moving in the right direction.
16:07 < eryc> if it wasn't hard you couldn't make lots of money from it
16:07 < rattleXw> They don't do everything I want, yet, but they are at least working on it.
16:08 < rattleXw> I also don't implement MS-DOS in the enterprise.  And I would murder anyone who suggested implementing something equally as weak.
16:08 <@Dagmar> So, why exactly are you pitching a fuss about Google Apps then
16:09 < rattleXw> These days, anyone who deploys an application that doesn't have some kind of audit/usage logging is fucking insane.
16:09 < rattleXw> Because Google is consistently pissing me off these days.  They are not listening.
16:09 <@Dagmar> Joe Blow with his dinky-ass carpentry shop can run his whole schtick off Google Apps and everyone's happy
16:10 < rattleXw> There is so little they have to do to make Apps a serious platform.
16:10 < eryc> maybe you should go work at Google!
16:10 <@Dagmar> I woulnd't call that "little"
16:10 < Mercster> ya, get a job at google and fix it? :)
16:10 <@Dagmar> You're acutally suggesting deep and pervasive changes to code
16:10 < rattleXw> eryc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzcLTPy8yDQ
16:10 < rattleXw> Making an audit trail available to customers?
16:10 < eryc> haha
16:11 < rattleXw> They have the capability already.  And a way to selectively activate it for third-parties like law enforcement.
16:11 <@Dagmar> No, _generating_ an audit trail in the first place.
16:11 < rattleXw> It's not as massive as it sounds to create an API to access the audit capabilities to facilitate pulling it into a SEIM.
16:12 < rattleXw> Dagmar: Dude, they log EVERYTHING.
16:12 <@Dagmar> Hell, perhaps the corporate world could stop acting like a bunch of cocks
16:12 <@Dagmar> Every time some asshole wants to accuse Google of anti-competitiveness, everyone just stands around with their thumbs up their asses
16:12 < rattleXw> At soon as I don't have to deal with the APT every fucking day, I'll stop being a nazi about security control implementation.
16:12 <@Dagmar> If they threw a whole bunch of serious auditing functions out there for everyone, for free, certain SaaS people would probably fucking sue
16:12 <@Dagmar> Certain DoJ people would proably go apeshit
16:13 <@Dagmar> Certain reporters would probably write scathing stories about how this is "proof" that "GOOGLE IS WATCHING YOU MASTERBATE!":
16:13 < rattleXw> Eh?  So if I'm an enterprise customer..  And I have an enterprise instance for all my users.  You are going to tell me I don't have the right (legal or moral) to audit the usage of my employes?
16:14 < rattleXw> I'd argue I have the responsibility to do so, in order not only to protect the enterprise, but to protect the users.
16:14 <@Dagmar> I mean, come on man.  We all know the wifi sniffing thing with Maps was BULLSHIT of use to absolutely no one, and ther'es STILL fucking asshole attorneys out there bringing cases against google over it
16:14 < eryc> I don't see how you can accuse a website of being anti-competitive.
16:14 < rattleXw> The wifi sniffing is a very different thing than what I'm talking about.
16:14 <@Dagmar> No it's pretty much the same shit all around
16:14 <@Dagmar> Google does things that only very smart people can do
16:15 <@Dagmar> When they do things that only VERY VERY smart people can do, cunning people twist it into something sinister and demand money
16:15 <@Dagmar> ...becasue the not so smart people just have no goddamn clue what the fuck Google is doing anyway, which means they're amenable to believing the cunning lawyers.
16:15 < rattleXw> The wifi thing sounds like the straight-up fuck-up they claim it was to me.
16:15 <@Dagmar> This is straight up witch-huntery bullshit like from the middle ages.
16:15 < rattleXw> I'm arguing that Google doesn't do what it needs to do to properly support enterprise customers.
16:15 <@Dagmar> rattleXw: Yes, and the data collected is fucking useless
16:16 <@Dagmar> ...and yet there's a state attorney as recently as this last goddamn month quoted in the press as saying "It's time we sent a message that it's never okay to wiretap"
16:16 < rattleXw> Um, no.
16:16 <@Dagmar> If they rolled out a bunch of serious access controls on Google Apps, there would be a shitstorm of buckled hats and dunkings
16:16 <@Dagmar> Um, yes.
16:17 < rattleXw> We live in a nation of laws.  And such things must be governed by law.  Illegal wiretapping is bad.
16:17 <@Dagmar> ...and yet what Google did wasn't even what would generally be construed as wiretapping
16:17 < eryc> so is murdering your kid..
16:17 <@Dagmar> They practically collected goddamn wifi *confetti*
16:17 <@Dagmar> ...with no intention of attempting to convert it back into the original documents.
16:17 < rattleXw> However, wiretapping is also necessary to conduct investigations.  As long is the laws that govern it's usage are just, and they are followed, and the technology that implements it is ok.  I'm fine with it.
16:18 < eryc> Google needs Jose Baez to defend them.
16:18 <@Dagmar> But it's a highly complex issue, and the sort of thing cunning people can convince stupid people is something sinister because they're just not smart enough to keep up, and conceited enough to not say so
16:18 < rattleXw> However, on all those grounds the current situation is fucked.
16:18 <@Dagmar> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/google-wiretap-breach/
16:19 < rattleXw> And..  The Google wifi incident =! wiretapping ..  It was a fuckup that resulted in the unauthorized collection of pii and other protected information.
16:19 <@Dagmar> The only reason this isn't a dead issue is because motherfuckers want to twist it around to get a few dollars
16:19 <@Dagmar> rattleXw: Unencrypted wifi, man.
16:20 <@Dagmar> The odds of any of that PII actually being readable are ludicrously low because it's still mainly web shit.  People use SSL for PII.
16:20 < rattleXw> HA
16:21 < rattleXw> The grey area here is too vast to easily sail.  Things like session hijacking..
16:21 <@Dagmar> They were, as far as I know, originally looking to determine if it were possible to make up for GPS inaccuracies by looking at nearby access points
16:21 < rattleXw> They just fucked up.
16:21 < Mercster> set sail
16:21 <@Dagmar> ...but either way, they clearly werne't looking to steal people's email.
16:21 < rattleXw> There isn't much more to it than a fuckup.
16:21 < rattleXw> And fuckups should have some repurcussions, as if they don't, there isn't much incentive not to fuckup.
16:23 < Mercster> the public relations hit could probably be defined as a pretty good repurcussion
16:23 < Mercster> none of these companies want to be known as assholes
16:23 < rattleXw> At this point, I could give a shit less about the wifi incident.  Just fine them or something and get over it.  Fuck it.
16:24 <@Dagmar> Yeah but it's just an example
16:24 <@Dagmar> Remember, they actually had people arguing in court that they shouldn't descriminate against sites in search results based on the content on said sites.
16:24 < rattleXw> Of what?  That people overreact to shit?
16:25 <@Dagmar> No, it's an example that they're hitting the border of where bullshit happens in public schools.
16:25 <@Dagmar> Someone sticks their neck out and does something excellent, and they will invariably be tortured for it.
16:25 <@Dagmar> Jealousy, greed, and a whole host of other bullshit things that asshats are prone to.
16:25 < Mercster> rattleXw: wtf are you talking about, you're doing the same thing! (overreacting) ... 5 minutes ago you wanted repurcussions, now it's "no big deal"
16:26 < rattleXw> Yeah, just fine them and get over it.
16:26 <@Dagmar> If they threw in the access controls you want, for free, lawyers would go berzerk
16:26 < Mercster> rattleXw: you'll be happy when someone gives as much of a fuck ab out google apps security as you do, and makes a stink about it?:)
16:26 < Mercster> sounds like you're pissed for the sole reason that noone really gives as much of a shit about it as you do
16:26 <@Dagmar> You do remember that both Blockbuster and Hollywood Video both sued Redbox because they were renting DVDs too cheaply.
16:27 < rattleXw> It's not a big deal.  We don't need to put someone in jail.  Just send a signal that it isn't a practice we want to see.
16:27 < Mercster> if google apps doesnt meet your security requirements, fuck it, use something else
16:27 <@Dagmar> rattleXw: That's a _smart_ person's reaction to it.
16:27 <@Dagmar> A _stupid_ person's reaction to it is fear and distrust.
16:27 < Mercster> who green-lighted google apps for your enterprise when it didnt match your security profile?
16:27 < rattleXw> Mercster: I do.
16:27 <@Dagmar> An assholes reaction to it is that it's an opportunity to extort money from someone
16:28 < rattleXw> I just want to see them improve the damn product so I don't have it.
16:29 < rattleXw> Dude, sending a signal that it's something we don't want to see, when it's a major corp, is fining them.  You can't slap a corp on the wrist.  You can't censure a corp.
16:29 <@Dagmar> So why hasn't it happened yet
16:30 <@Dagmar> These people don't want to fix anything.  They just want an excuse to get camera time
16:30 <@Dagmar> I mean, it's not like Google doesn't generally just set aside the money to hand over when lawyers come sniffing aorund
16:30 <@Dagmar> They socked away what, fifty fuckin million dollars after the fake pharma ad crap
16:30 <@Dagmar> ...and Facebook tried to capitalize on it as FUD
16:31 < rattleXw> Probably because the bureaucracy hasn't figured out a regulatory structure or statute that makes sense for governing future similar incidents.
16:31 <@Dagmar> Might have something to do with that what they did is technically still quite legal
16:31 <@Dagmar> If they fix the law like they should--oh wait, that would take smart people and those don't exist in political circles generally speaking
16:32 <@Dagmar> even if they did fix the law it wouldn't apply retroactively
16:32 < rattleXw> At this point, it's probably pointless for me to continue arguing about this case without studying the specifics.
16:34 <@Dagmar> Id' worry more about the gov't agencies to were very quick to demand copies of all the data Google sniffed
16:34 <@Dagmar> We'd be fuckin' morons to think someone wasn't poring through it looking for goodies
16:35 <@Dagmar> There's probably at least one office who drew up a report about whether or not it's viable to eavesdrop on the general populace by merely driving around sniffing data
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16:35 < rattleXw> Um.  Actually..  That's seriously highly unlikely.
16:36 <@Dagmar> So how is it less likely than Google actually intending to effectively _wiretap_ anyone
16:36 < rattleXw> Like, I can't emphasize how likely it is, at least at the federal level.
16:37 < rattleXw> State and municipal yokels being quite unpredictable when it comes to that kinda thing.
16:38 < rattleXw> When the feds get a lever they can pull, they will pull it often.  However, they don't have as many levels to pull as people think they do..  And it takes waaaay longer to pull those levers than some of the media coverage leads one to believe.
16:39 <@Dagmar> ...and unless we regularly riot in the streets, they somehow seem to regularly get up to shit they shouldn't be doing
16:39  * Dagmar notices a distinct lack of rioting.
16:39 < rattleXw> And that's hugely important.  When the feds get caught doing something dumb, they must be held accountable.
16:40 <@Dagmar> David Arriola, Davidson County Court Clerk just got popped by Channel 5 this week.
16:40 <@Dagmar> Among other things... He was collecting fees for performing marriages and marriage certificates.
16:40 <@Dagmar> Him, personally, taking the money.
16:40 <@Dagmar> He spent about $30,000 last year promoting _his name_ as the Davidson County Court Cleark.
16:41 <@Dagmar> Like, up to and including putting his name up nice and large on office walls
16:41 <@Dagmar> ...although this is an _elected position_.
16:42 < rattleXw> That issue swings very far in both directions IMOH.  On one level, they often overreach.  On another, they are practically powerless to get anything (especially simple shit) fast.
16:42 <@Dagmar> At least the fucking police chief down in Lavergne had the sense to resign before the shit he was up to went public
16:42 < rattleXw> (I was referencing feds tap capability)
16:44 < rattleXw> I don't think there is anything that pisses me off more than corruption.
16:45 <@Dagmar> I dunno.  I kinda enjoy not having to break laws to be declared a criminal.
16:46 <@Dagmar> All the savoire-faire of being a lawbreaker without having to actually do anything but wait for someone to make the shit I'm already doing illegal
16:47 <@Dagmar> ...and the lobbyists are more than willing to foot the bill to make that happen.
16:49 <@Dagmar> You might be seeing Tom commenting about GeoHot on Twitter
16:49 <@Dagmar> Ther's another good example
16:49 <@Dagmar> The kid didn't break any laws, he just did something perfectly legal and quite spectacular that pissed off someone with money
16:49 <@Dagmar> ...so they loosed the lawyers on him and tried to paint him as a criminal.
16:54 <@Dagmar> Hell, I'd still like to know whY Google didn't bitch-slap that fucktard Jobs in the spring over the GPS tracking issue
16:54 <@Dagmar> He made a materially false statement to the press about Android phones "also" tracking their users without them knowing it
16:55 <@Dagmar> Google needs a "vicious bastards" division to counteract this "Don't be evil" stuff a bit.
16:56 <@Dagmar> A group of people dedicated to seeking out people trying to take advantage of Google's good nature, and fucking them in the ass for it
16:56 <@Dagmar> They could be entirely independent of Google's control, sort of like how the RIAA goes around fucking single mothers over for millions of dollars over a handful of CDs
17:00 < rattleXw> I guess I look at it differently.  I don't see any virtue in being regarded as an outlaw.  Rather, I'd rather seize the power and see my interests become the governing initiative.  Call it selling out, playing the game, or whatever.  Anything else is simply being disenfranchised, and no honor lies without being beaten.
17:01 < rattleXw> Conversely, I like my personal outlaw sensibilities to be represented through my choice of art and style.
17:01 < rattleXw> s/without/within/
17:01 -!- vaneck [~vaneck@96-38-5-186.static.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?]
17:02 < rattleXw> Fuck the man works in music.  Being the man works in virtually every other way.
17:02 < Mercster> :|
17:03 < rattleXw> Hence, why I think hacking government is one of the best things to be doing right now.  I'd rather be in power than be abused by those who are.
17:07 < rattleXw> Our generation could use a few hackers in congress, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.  At best we'll control enough money to keep our interests from being shit on.
17:10 < rattleXw> Cuz if you think running the infrastructure is somehow really important, I urge you to reference the political capital held by janitors, plumbers, electricians, et cetera.  I don't see an IT union, so we got squat in terms of political power.
17:11 < rattleXw> And even if we did, it'd have squat in terms of political power given what's playing out on a daily basis right now.
17:11 < rattleXw> And anonymous isn't the answer, either.
17:12 <@Dagmar> Anonymous isn't supposed to be an answer.
17:13 <@Dagmar> They're a symptom of something else entirely.
17:13 < rattleXw> ... a generational conflict playing itself out in the hacking scene.
17:13 <@Dagmar> On an entirely less egalitarian but much more personal level, fuck Starz in the brown eye for reneging on streaming Torchwood on the web
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17:14 < rattleXw> Heh..  Phone companies are evil.  Cable companies are evil.  Now all the phone companies and cable companies too, and vice versa.  Therefore, the greatest evil now owns all the pipes.
17:15 < rattleXw> But I sure do love my 35Mbit FIOS.  WOOHOO!
17:15 <@Dagmar> Perhaps we cna get the fuckin' FCC to fuck over Sprint
17:15 < Mercster> everyone's evil
17:15 < rattleXw> What is the current broadband layout in Nashville now anyway?  What's available?  Is last-mile fiber happening down there?
17:16 < rattleXw> Btw..  I fully admit to being completely wrong about last-mile fiber.
17:16 < rattleXw> I will fully acknowledge that I said the economics of it sucked, and it wasn't going to happen.  I was wrong.  Very wrong.
17:16 <@Dagmar> Hahah
17:16 <@Dagmar> U-Verse is sort of available here.
17:16 < rattleXw> Here that everyone, I was wrong.
17:16 <@Dagmar> It's still basically xDSL.
17:16 < rattleXw> Never been happier to be wrong.
17:16 < Mercster> rattleXw: 'hear'
17:17 < Mercster> rattleXw: wrong again!
17:17 < rattleXw> See, it never ends.
17:17 < Mercster> heh ;-)
17:17 <@Dagmar> I currently hav ea ticket open with Comcast which in theory means in three to five business days THEY'LL BE ABLE TO TELL ME WHAT CHANNELS I AM PAYING THEM FOR.
17:17 <@Dagmar> Three to fucking five buisness days
17:17 <@Dagmar> AT&T and Comcast are perfect examples of how competition can actually not manifest when both companies act as if they have a monopoly.
17:18 < Mercster> yeah, trying to make money is a bitch, aint it
17:18 <@Dagmar> We'll get last-mile fiber here in the same way we got DSL.
17:18 <@Dagmar> When the PSC coughs up a bunch of money completely paying for either AT&T or Comcast to do it.
17:18 < rattleXw> That blows.
17:18 < RangerZ> Dagmar: try to organize a community chip in with taxes to put in the last mile of fiber, and then a junction for verizon/etc to hook up to
17:19 < RangerZ> thats all it takes to get verizon to sue you to stop you from doing it
17:19 < RangerZ> and to quickly install theirs
17:19 <@Dagmar> There's really not much fucking point in arguing about whether or not a gov't sponsored ISP constitues a conflict of interest when the fucking infrastructure gets paid for by the goddamn gov't anyway
17:19 < rattleXw> I think DC metro area is kicking ass in part, because if it wasn't, the liklihood of a focus on universal broadband would wind up quickly getting focus.
17:20 < rattleXw> A huge part of it is simply good governance of the common infrastructure..  read as holes in the ground, conduit, tele poles, etc.
17:21 < rattleXw> Actually, I just checked.  I'm in error.  I only have 25Mbit.
17:21 <@Dagmar> That's about ten times what we have max
17:21 < rattleXw> Oops.  It's till faster than my laptop can go.  heh
17:21 < Mercster> rattleXw: how are the TV costs with FIOS?
17:21 <@Dagmar> Oh at least until comcast decides it's time to throttle, which they do.
17:21 < RangerZ> look at NC, when the county tried to install its own, verizon sued them, saying that verizon was "doing it for the benefit of the county"
17:21 < rattleXw> Mercster: Lower than Comcast, more HD.
17:21 < Mercster> rattleXw: nod
17:22 <@Dagmar> I have another good idea.
17:22 < rattleXw> The actual Mbit max for the fiber to the demarc is 240Mbit.
17:22 < rattleXw> So that's the current technical limitation.
17:22 < Mercster> yeah i'd like FIOS, but i doubt my apt building will ever get it
17:22 < Mercster> even if knoxville gets it
17:22 <@Dagmar> Let's have the FCC rough up some fucking cable companies over deliberately trying to force people to buy DVR service from them
17:22 <@Dagmar> That's definitely anti-competitive shit they're doing
17:22 < rattleXw> So however that splits between TV, Inet, etc..
17:23 < rattleXw> They productize on three levels..  10Mbit, 25Mbit, and 35Mbit.  25Mbit being the one that makes the most sense, as the 35Mbit is faster than most machines can go.
17:23 < RangerZ> except the GOP Is fighting the existence of the FCC, and its powers
17:23 <@Dagmar> I have another good idea.  How about some TV over fucking IP with a reasonably open protocol
17:23 < RangerZ> which is only helping the telecoms
17:23 < rattleXw> They way they productize and implement the FIOS is pretty clever.
17:23 <@Dagmar> We've had multicast groups for how many TENS of YEARS now?
17:24 < RangerZ> ROFL , Dagmar: ... "We are currently working to provide channel lineup information for your area."
17:24 < rattleXw> Like, if you can't get fiber directly to your home, like in an apartment complex or something..  They can go from fiber to DSL or cable on the poll or at the building dmarc..
17:24 < RangerZ> i just went to comcast to see what they offer for where i'm moving
17:24 <@Dagmar> rattleXw: I am seriously maybe one or two years away from saying "You know what guys?  FUCK COPYRIGHTS."
17:25 < rattleXw> Hence, if they can't get a line into your apt, they can drop DLS that can do at least 15Mbit or cable that can do 25Mbit+.
17:25 <@Dagmar> That shit is rapidly becoming so unfair and corrupt that it's not benefiting ANYONE but corporations
17:25 < RangerZ> Dagmar: you'd like www.techdirt.com
17:25 <@Dagmar> rattle: Until they've had three to five spurious reports that you might have pirated something
17:26 <@Dagmar> Then they can turn your shit off and blackball you
17:26 <@Dagmar> RangerZ: Oh I really hope he has a good explanation
17:26 < rattleXw> ..  so be wary in your choice of trackers.  Don't be stupid and go for the honeypot.
17:26 <@Dagmar> RangerZ: For that shit I'd kick him in the balls, KNOWING he's a lawyer who would sue me for it
17:26 < RangerZ> he's anti-abuse of copyright
17:27 < RangerZ> he believes there is a legit purpose for them, but that patents, copyright and trademark are abused way too often
17:27 < RangerZ> personally i'd rather go back to the 14years
17:27 < RangerZ> and you have to register for protection
17:27 <@Dagmar> RangerZ: I think perhaps the author of the article as well as the people he interviewed are missing ht epoint
17:27 < RangerZ> b/c if you were going to sell a work, you'd register
17:27 <@Dagmar> It *should* be "First to fucking invent" and nothing else.
17:28 < RangerZ> http://www.everythingisaremix.info/ part 3 is pretty interesting
17:28 <@Dagmar> The ROI on simply filing papers _claiming_ you invented something is far higher than actually inventing things will ever be.
17:28 < RangerZ> (copyright law, especially for software is one of my areas of interest)
17:29 < RangerZ> talking about how very rarely do people "invent" anything, mostly it is refining the process that many people are doing
17:29 <@Dagmar> I strongly suspect there's a direct link between us as a nation not getting a whole lot accomplished, and the bullshit changes they put in in the 80's that facilitated submarine patents
17:29 < RangerZ> well look at airplane technology
17:30 < RangerZ> at the start of ww 1, we had no plane manf. capabilities in the US, b/c the wright brothers were patent trolls basically
17:30 < RangerZ> so the US govt made airplane patents unenforceable
17:30 <@Dagmar> Invent something exceptional, spend the rest of your life and a sizeable chunk of your operating costs having to explain why Motherfucker, Sodomite, and Sons LLC didn't actually invent thirty dinky and only distantly related parts of your actual invention.
17:30 < RangerZ> until 1976*(or so), and thats how we became the world's leader in airplane tech
17:31 < RangerZ> and let alone the DMCA anti-circumvention clasue
17:31 < RangerZ> and the librarian of congress not having a PC in 2008
17:32 < RangerZ> and she was the SINGLE person in the US who could decide "Fair use" of circumvention tech
17:32 < Mercster> you son of a
17:33 < RangerZ> Mercster: ok? (me?)
17:33 <@Dagmar> ...and then we threw out independent innovation clauses in the 80's.
17:33 <@Dagmar> I htink we need a new system
17:33 < Mercster> RangerZ: nah, collective 'you'
17:34 < RangerZ> ahh
17:34  * Mercster hugs RangerZ 
17:34 <@Dagmar> One where, if you invent something really spectacular, and you get it to market, and then some asshole comes along not acutally doing anything but sitting on a patent claiming they invented part of your shit...
17:34 <@Dagmar> ...you should be allowed to bust into their house in the middle of the night and kill them and their entire family.
17:34 <@Dagmar> I mean everyone else living in the house at all.
17:34 < RangerZ> Microsoft is/was a big pusher for the "first to file" system being the rule
17:35 <@Dagmar> Boyfriends, girlfriends, great aunts, cats, dogs, and goldfish included.
17:35 < Mercster> Dagmar: that's kinda extreme
17:35 <@Dagmar> RangerZ: because they're setting up to be patent trolls supreme
17:35 < RangerZ> no they aren't... they are already there, lol
17:35 < RangerZ> look at the mobile space lawsuits
17:36 < RangerZ> http://thinkinoutcloud.blogspot.com/2010/10/mobile-patents-who-is-suing-who-anyway.html
17:36 <@Dagmar> Why even bother making up shit to tell the press about the spectacular vaporware when you can skip paying PR people and just cut straight to putting a legal roadblock in the way of other people until you finally get around to trying to do something with some shit you came up with on a cocktail napkin while you were drunk ten years ago
17:36 < RangerZ> and thats old, b/c there is already new suits
17:37 <@Dagmar> It's only a matter of time before someone gets sued by someone for simply making an effective digital camera, and the countersuit claims vicarious infringement by Bausch & Lomb because THE CAMERA USERS HAVE TO HAVE EYESIGHT.
17:37 <@Dagmar> ...and they'll have a patent on it
17:37 <@Dagmar> Maybe we should just refile for a patent on masturbation as a annual thing
17:37 < Mercster> i support denying camera access to blind people
17:43 < RangerZ> http://www.zzounds.com/ if anyone is a musician, they are offering a "make us an offer" deal on any one item they carry if you give the coupon code "freedom" today until 10pm EST
18:02 <@sasquatc4> saw someone on kvr mention that a little bit ago, they managed to talk them down from 700 to 489 on some Adam A7x's
18:04 < RangerZ> i'd like to get some good speakers myself, but that'll have to wait
18:04 < RangerZ> i can play with work's bose 802 series 1 for now though
18:04 < RangerZ> good mid range workhorses, but not much else, lol
18:10 <@sasquatc4> i just grabbed some rokit6's a few months back, hard to beat 300 for a pair
18:10 < RangerZ> i've always done lighting, general stagehand stuff
18:10 < RangerZ> thinking of getting into a bit of custom mixing for my own personal fun
18:11 -!- todd [~todd@cpe-075-177-178-209.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:11 < RangerZ> i honestly don't know that much about sound, so i'm trying to learn more now
18:12 < RangerZ> i've been out of it for about 8 years now, just got back into lighting for the summer, between schools
18:13 -!- todd [~todd@cpe-075-177-178-209.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #se2600
18:14 < RangerZ> thinking about getting a midi controlled mixer and learning off of that, to decrease initial investment
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19:16 <@Evilpig> Mercster: I with other support denying oxygen to you on the grounds that given to you it is just wasted.
19:16 <@Evilpig> others*
19:16 < Mercster> ooh yeah, you with others huh
19:16 <@Evilpig> do you want me to ask in here how many people support depriving you of oxygen?
19:17 < Mercster> go ahead, like i give two flying fucks :)
19:17 < Mercster> if im unpopular amongst this crew, i count it as a blessing
19:19 < Mercster> go ahead, bigtime, take the poll
19:20 <@Evilpig> if you support the depriving mercster of our precious oxygen  /kick mercster when you get back to channel
19:20 -!- Mercster was kicked from #se2600 by Evilpig [no air for you]
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19:20  * Mercster slowjerks
19:30 -!- Mercster was kicked from #se2600 by Bahhumbug [Mercster]
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20:15 < Mercster> :)
20:18 < Mercster> now that's pretty cool...google+ hangouts has a linux plugin
20:18 < Mercster> im trying to get 3+ people into a hangout, supposedly it supports up to 10
20:21 <@Husky> fuck yeah
20:21 <@Husky> lets hang out on the computers
20:21 <@Husky> instead of like...hanging out in real life
20:21 < Mercster> it's video chat
20:22 < Mercster> linux skype still doesnt allow more than 2 people on a video call
20:22 <@Husky> fuck yeah i can look at my ugly friends faces in front of their computers doing nothing now!!!
20:22 < Mercster> but supposedly, google+ allows it
20:22 < Mercster> ok we get it, you're too cool for school
20:23 <@Husky> i guess thats why im taking classes
20:23 < Mercster> 10-person in-browser chat sounds pretty cool to me
20:23 < RangerZ> spin off of wave?
20:24 < Mercster> Husky: it's just a saying, "too cool for school" i.e. too awesome for whatever's being talked about
20:24 < Mercster> RangerZ: eh, im no google evangelist, but this is better than wave easily
20:25 < Mercster> does anyone want a google+ invite?
20:27 <@Husky> i was supposedly invited earlier today but never got the email
20:28 < Mercster> k
20:29 < Mercster> Husky: /msg me your email addy and ill send you an invite
20:29 <@Husky> wow thanks
20:29 < Mercster> if you want :)
20:30 <@Corydon76-home> Husky: you need a @gmail account to join
20:30 <@Corydon76-home> Google Apps is not sufficient
20:30 <@Husky> aww what the hell
20:31 < Mercster> life isnt fair
20:31 <@Husky> mist3r@gmail.com
20:32 < Mercster> Husky: that's your gmail addy?
20:32 <@Husky> lol yeah my old school one
20:33 < Mercster> pfft
20:45 <@Bahhumbug> Evilpig: is it permissible to vote for depriving Mercster of oxygen more than once?
20:46 <@Bahhumbug> Corydon76-home: My invites were not to gmail accounts.
20:46 <@Bahhumbug> well, not solely to gmail, I got a bunch of them today.
20:46 <@Corydon76-home> Bahhumbug: you still need a gmail account to join
20:47 <@Bahhumbug> Uh, the identity I registered with isn't a gmail identity.
20:47  * Bahhumbug shrugs
20:47 < Mercster> waaaah
20:47 <@Husky> hmm still no invite
20:48 <@Husky> would it matter if that gmail address gets forwarded to another email address? didnt think so
20:48 < Mercster> Husky: i told you to /msg me
20:48 <@Husky> i dont care who knows my email
20:48 <@Husky> why should /msg matter
20:48 <@Bahhumbug> John Dennisonjrd@gerdesas.com
20:48 <@Bahhumbug>  
20:48 <@Bahhumbug>     View profile
20:48 <@Bahhumbug>     Circles
20:48 <@Bahhumbug>     Account settings
20:48 <@Bahhumbug>     Privacy
20:48 < Mercster> Husky: ok, sending you an invite
20:49 < Mercster> Husky: lemme know if you get it
20:50 <@Husky> got it
20:51 <@Husky> thx
20:52 <@Husky> lets see what makes g+ cool
20:52 <@Bahhumbug> Well, it has Mercster,
20:52 < Mercster> !
20:53 < Mercster> OOH YEAH
20:53 < Mercster> anything + me == cool
20:55 < RangerZ> anything - you = ?
20:55 <@Husky> i dont have a webcam on desktop though
21:00 <@Dagmar> Soo... looks like the xfinity website is handling Starz streaming Torchwood.
21:00 <@Dagmar> Watching now.  :)
21:27 < Mercster> Dagmar: you'd probably enjoy netflix streaming
21:29 <@Dagmar> Afaik It'll be on Netflix but 90 days lagged
21:29 < Mercster> i dont even order dvds from them, i use netflix streaming on my xbox360
21:30 < Mercster> it's pretty awesome
21:30 < RangerZ> any recommendations on a verizon android phone purchase (for my girl)
21:30 < Mercster> RangerZ: i love my droidX... droid3 just came out though
21:31 < Mercster> also i think there's a droid X2
21:31 < RangerZ> thunderbolt is pretty much useless without the 4g, so thats out
21:32 < RangerZ> well... less useful
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21:42 <@Dagmar> LOL
21:43 <@Dagmar> "It's like the British equivalent of New Jersey."
21:43 < RangerZ> wtf?
21:43 <@Dagmar> Dude on Torchwood talking about Wales
21:43 < RangerZ> ahh
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21:51 < eryc> G+ is pretty sweet.  It's FB + Twitter, but lighter and better.
21:51 <@Husky> i havent picked a good profile pic
21:52 <@Husky> thats what im stuck at lol
21:52 < eryc> Yea I chose an elephant riding a car on the beach.
21:52 <@Husky> haha
21:53 < Mercster> hahahaha SHUTTUP
22:00 < Mercster> Husky: you wanna try a hangout?
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22:58 < RangerZ> http://xkcd.com/918/ really is so true
23:25 <@Dagmar> Pretty much
23:25 <@Dagmar> Zuckerberg should take it as a sign that so many people are *ready* to jump ship
23:26 <@Husky> i dont think he gives a fuck
23:26 <@Husky> hes a billionaire
23:30 <@Dagmar> He wouldn't have gotten there if he weren't being greedy for greed's sake.  This will piss him off.
23:45 < RangerZ> the day after he said he was about to announce a "bunch" of FB features
23:45 < RangerZ> i "lol"ed
23:51 <@Dagmar> "QUICK!  THROW SOMETHING TOGETHER!"
--- Log closed Sat Jul 09 00:00:35 2011