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13:05 <@Dagmar> I have to share this link because I feel it would be unsporting to chew this developer's ass off without giving others a chance to get a piece
13:05 <@Dagmar> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933040&page=3
13:05 <@Dagmar> Come 5pm I am going to rip this fucker in half for the stupid shit he's saying
13:18 < RangerZ> Dagmar: are you theDL?
13:20 < RangerZ> if so, copyright law is one of my areas of interest, inform the developer, that under current statues streaming or caching of information is not considered an illegal copy ( i can't find the legal reference for it, but it is true) and that it is considered fair use, in the normal operation of the desired software product
13:20 < RangerZ> same actually (kinda) hold true to child porn... but thats an entirely separate issue (if someone/thing puts porn on your computer without your knowledge, you aren't liable)(sorta, it is much more nuanced)
13:22 < RangerZ> and Starg is not correct in this, at most it would require a license to broadcast the music, not be illegal, but thats not really true always anyways, the online music lockers of amazon and google now argue that it is fair use to store your music online
13:23 < RangerZ> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/cablevision-remote-dvr-stays-legal-supremes-wont-hear-case.ars is essentially the reason why online lockers are legal , b/c the supreme court rejected hearing the case
13:24 < RangerZ> so if you store a separate copy of each file online, then it is nothing other than person use, timeshifting recording
13:25 < RangerZ> so if they WANTED to incorporate music (any music) streaming from one system to another (and the end-users certified that they had publishing rights)(whether this is true or not, doesn't effect the game at that point legally) then as long as the cache is deleted, everything should be copasetic  (sp?)
13:26 < RangerZ> .</rambles>
13:27 < RangerZ> ohh also... "That would indeed be a nice idea but only if the video incl. the song is directly streamed and not ripped, because taking out vid or sound is yet again illegal ^^"
13:28 < RangerZ> is not correct, you are legally allowed to record any music/film production that is broadcast for free
13:28 < RangerZ> which is why shoutcast rippers are legal, same as recording over the air broadcast movies/tv
13:30 < RangerZ> "Broadcasting in any form is illegal. Shame..." straw man argument that ignores fair use, and broadcast rulings
13:38 < RangerZ> but the dev doesn't "have" to add this support, he should just come out and say, "I'm scared of potentially making my game more useful to players because I don't want to add in functionality, and I don't want to put in the TOS that I'm not legally responsible"
13:39 < RangerZ> ...nap time now...
13:58 <@Corydon76-home> Actually, the legal standard for this is "substantial non-infringing use"
13:59 <@Dagmar> Far as I know the app streaming the toon to the other players without keeping a copy would be non-infringing
14:00 <@Dagmar> Sony's just butt-hurt they haven't found any way to get a law passed requiring them to be paid for that new use
14:00 <@Corydon76-home> Well, the developer can't be blamed for taking a CYA approach
14:01 <@Dagmar> What he *can* be blamed for is spouting crap answers when asked about it
14:01 <@Dagmar> ...and that's what I intend to take him to task over.
14:02 <@Corydon76-home> That difference in message is frequently lost in the communication
14:04 <@Dagmar> Especially when the developer is a lazy bitch who doesn't have the balls to blame asshat lawyers for the things asshat lawyers do
14:04 <@Corydon76-home> If the implementation is truly peer-to-peer and not creating a copy, AND the creator is not arguably making a profit from offering the feature, then I agree that it's legal.
14:05 <@Dagmar> As long as everyone acts like a limp-wristed shit, these jackasses will *continue* to effortless roll over everyone taking what they please
14:05 <@Dagmar> I could care less whether or not it's supposedly "legal"
14:05 <@Corydon76-home> But if the streaming feature is a differentiator that causes the creator to make more profit, then sync rights need to be obtained
14:05 <@Dagmar> It makes an assumption that all media which might be fed through it requires payment to someone else
14:05 <@Dagmar> This is patently false.
14:06 <@Dagmar> ...and not just by a small amount is it false, it's *very* false.
14:06 <@Corydon76-home> No, it makes the assumption that most media fed across it WILL be music to which the streamer does not have sync rights
14:06 <@Dagmar> ...and that keeps anyone who actually *wants* or is at least fine with their music being used like that, from having it done
14:07 <@Corydon76-home> That was the same argument used by Napster, Limewire, et al, and the court answered it by showing what the actual use was
14:08 <@Dagmar> That and Napster was actively encouraging people to *pirate music* over their service
14:08 <@Dagmar> This is another matter entirely.
14:08 <@Dagmar> Streaming a tune to the other player wouldn't necessarily leave them with a copy of the damn thing
14:09 <@Dagmar> Particularly if the developer coded it to just buffer and play and nothing else
14:09 <@Corydon76-home> It's why BitTorrent can continue to exist as a company; because Linux distros and other legal media has a substantial amount of traffic with BitTorrent
14:09 <@Dagmar> It's not like the program could accidentally store a copy of the streamed track somewhere on the user's disk
14:09 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: but you're still talking about sync rights here
14:09 <@Dagmar> Yes, and those don't automatically apply to all music.
14:10 <@Dagmar> If I record a techno track for use with the thing, because of some shithead lawyers, it's substantially harder to use it in multiplayer in that game and it does not need to be
14:10 <@Corydon76-home> If the music in question was coming over the PC microphone, then it's clearly meant for use as a conversation, and the music is background noise.  That would be legal.
14:11 <@Dagmar> It goes from allowing someone to use a piece of music in what would many *reasonable* people would construe as fair use, and forces the user to actually pirate the thing
14:12 <@Dagmar> Within the scope of the game, that other player *could* be in the same room--they're certainly participating in the same environment in-game
14:12 <@Dagmar> Sony's interest isn't to reduce loss, it's to prevent anyone else from doing anything that they're not getting paid for.
14:13 <@Bahhumbug> Shouldn't Sony be more concerned with web site breakins and data loss?
14:13 <@Dagmar> You'd think so
14:13 <@Corydon76-home> No, it's to ensure that they get paid for music for which they have a master or sync licensing rights
14:13 <@Dagmar> Certainly from what's on my hard drive now they have a lot of redesign to do
14:14 <@Dagmar> Corydon76-home: That fails when it restricts the ability of other people to do what they've like to with music Sony *doesn't* own
14:14 <@Corydon76-home> Sony is a big company; their music division is frequently at odds with their consumer electronics division
14:14 <@Dagmar> The money they'd get from licencing one pair of ears to listen to a track isn't enough for them to bother with
14:14 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: but Sony hasn't actually prevented the developer from doing anything; they've simply stated their opinion when it comes to Sony music
14:15 <@Dagmar> They basically threatened the developer
14:15 <@Corydon76-home> No, they haven't
14:15 <@Dagmar> Read up on it.
14:16 <@Corydon76-home> They've basically said that they view a particular use as illegal, and they reserve all rights.
14:16 <@Corydon76-home> That's not a threat to sue; that's saying that they will not say they won't sue
14:17 <@Dagmar> Except it's not illegal, and what they're "reserving" is the rights to *all* music
14:17 <@Corydon76-home> I haven't made a covenant not to sue you on some bogus claim, but I haven't threatened to do it, either.
14:17 <@Dagmar> More importantly, as far as I know, they weren't _asked_
14:18 <@Dagmar> ...and it doesn't really matter because the outcome *still* restricts freedom of expression
14:18 <@Corydon76-home> It's not clear whether Starg asked or not
14:18 <@Dagmar> So long as it restricts entirely legal freedom of expression, it's _wrong_
14:18 <@Corydon76-home> Sony isn't responsible for the decision of the developer
14:19 <@Dagmar> Blah blah blah.  If they're talking about legal matters, they are responsible
14:19 <@Corydon76-home> It's not actually restricting anything.  You would need to have a forum (the feature in question) in order to claim restraint of speech.
14:19 <@Dagmar> whatever
14:19 <@Corydon76-home> You started off talking about the legalities.  I'm responding with legalities.
14:20 <@Corydon76-home> I don't understand why your complaint should be heard, but the response should not.
14:21 <@Corydon76-home> I probably should have been a lawyer.  I love the law.
14:21 <@Dagmar> No, you're basically wasting my time
14:21 <@Corydon76-home> I'm trying to educate.
14:21 <@Dagmar> Because what it boils down to is that the primary reason people would want the game client to be able to stream isn't infringing
14:22 <@Dagmar> Everything else pretty much takes a back seat to that, because the end result of it is that we're all a little less free.
14:22 <@Corydon76-home> That depends upon a legal technicality of whether the developer profits from it
14:22 <@Dagmar> No, it doesn't.
14:22 <@Corydon76-home> Yes, it does.
14:22 <@Dagmar> It has fuck all to do with it
14:22 <@Dagmar> Music is not automatically owned by someone
14:22 <@Corydon76-home> If the developer profits from it, then sync rights are at play
14:22 <@Corydon76-home> Yes, it is.
14:23 <@Dagmar> No, it is not.
14:23 <@Corydon76-home> All music is automatically owned by somebody
14:23 <@Dagmar> No one owns public domain, and there's plenty of artists out there who have no problem with uses like this
14:23 <@Corydon76-home> Okay, there's one place where it is not, which is music created by the federal government.
14:23 <@Corydon76-home> Actually, there is no provision in federal law to release works into the public domain
14:23 <@Dagmar> It happens automatically.
14:24 <@Dagmar> It doesn't have to be explicitly released
14:24 <@Corydon76-home> Other than through federal-government creation and copyright expiration
14:24 <@Corydon76-home> How many works of art that are not 75 years old or created by the federal government do you wish to stream?
14:25 <@Dagmar> Skrillex comes to mind pretty quickly
14:25 <@Dagmar> The guy gave his last album away for free because he mainly only gives a shit about doing gigs in warehouses, and I still gave him $35 over paypal
14:25 <@Corydon76-home> Which is that?  At least 75 years old or created by the federal government?
14:26 <@opticron> classical music ftw
14:26 <@Dagmar> Neither dumbass, it's an artist who doesn't mind people listening to his music
14:26 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: that's irrelevant
14:26 <@Dagmar> No, it is not.
14:26 <@Corydon76-home> He still owns the music, whether he wants to or not
14:26 <@Dagmar> He is not alone in that, either.
14:27 <@Corydon76-home> Now, he's welcome to license the music for free, but he still owns the music for a term not less than 75 years
14:27 <@Dagmar> Which has fuck all to do with whether or not he cares what you do with it
14:27 <@Dagmar> The result of this legal crap is that people who *want* to spread their music can't
14:28 <@Corydon76-home> Whether the sync rights are free or not, there are still sync rights in question on ALL music (other than copyright expired or federal gov't created)
14:28 <@Dagmar> The mechanisms to do so never come to market because some fuckstick lawyer is suing people for even trying
14:28 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: No, they aren't.
14:28 <@Dagmar> "sync rights" are not the same thing as "sync forbidden"
14:28 <@Corydon76-home> Show me the suit the lawyer filed that prevented this
14:29 <@Dagmar> Either way, I'll just shortcut the entire thing and say flat out I don't give a flying fuck what lawyers think.  If I want people to be able to listen to sounds I make wihtout restriction and I can't, that's broken
14:29 <@Dagmar> Again, you're just wasting my fuckiing time
14:29 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: sure, you can do that
14:29 <@Dagmar> No one has to fucking sue someone to "prove" that they interfered
14:29 <@opticron> Dagmar, btw, skrillex is coming to hsv on july 10
14:29 <@Corydon76-home> You are absolutely allowed to license the music you created 100% for free.
14:29 <@Dagmar> opticron: Great.  I fucking hate you now
14:30 <@Dagmar> Corydon76-home: Doens't fucking matter
14:30 <@opticron> you should come down...
14:30 <@Corydon76-home> Nobody is preventing you from doing that
14:30 <@Dagmar> Has jack and shit to do with whether ot not a game had a mechanism forbidden because of the distant possibility of a suit
14:30 <@Dagmar> ...and is therefore a waste of my time
14:31 <@Dagmar> opticron: that's a bit fucking far
14:31 <@opticron> I thought you were in nashville
14:31 <@Corydon76-home> It's only 2 hours away
14:31 <@Dagmar> I'd be wiped from the drive down, and definitely unable to drive back from the party
14:31 <@Corydon76-home> You can crash with opticron and brimstone
14:31 <@brimstone> we don't live together anymore
14:32 <@brimstone> and i don't have a couch
14:32 <@opticron> I could lend you the couch for a night :)
14:32 <@Corydon76-home> You broke up the Bohemian flat?
14:32 <@Dagmar> Meh.  I can get a room
14:32 <@brimstone> yeah, that was years ago
14:32 <@Dagmar> It's not like HSV is near JFK or something
14:33 <@Dagmar> I'd like to see the guy play here but most of the "dubstep" people in Nashville seem to be of the "can't dance and I lack social graces" variety
14:33 <@Corydon76-home> btw, you can cut about 30 minutes off the journey if you take exit 1 off I-65 and take AL-53 to HSV
14:34 <@Dagmar> Fucking hipsters
14:35 <@Dagmar> At Mimosa @ Mercy Lounge I got to hear people bad-mouthing "ravers" because of drugs, but I saw people smoking shit in the parking lot just the same
14:35 <@Dagmar> At least ravers fucking dance
14:36 <@opticron> we have a once a month goth/dubstep/industrial thing and that's about it
14:36 <@opticron> but people get out and dance (except for strages)
14:38 <@Dagmar> I wouldn't call that shit dancing
14:39 <@Dagmar> Even punks would view what I saw there as a rather limp-wristed variation of 'pogo-ing'
14:40 <@opticron> I have yet to go to a *REAL* dubstep event
14:41 <@Dagmar> I was pretty disappointed by the Mimosa show
14:41 <@Dagmar> Mimosa is pretty good, but the place was just filled with dipshit hipsters
14:41 <@opticron> actually, the one I went to out on a farm in the middle of nowhere had very few dancing and most there for the drugs
14:42 <@Dagmar> ...with a smattering of the usual borderline gangsters that tend to be attracted by hip-hop DJs being allowed out withut adult supervision
14:42 <@Dagmar> Unlike them I'm not stupid enough to lie to myself about why dupstep people like the rolling bassline
14:43 <@Dagmar> I get the feeling it's a side effect of smoking too much K2 that makes you like that
14:56 < sasquatc4> thats what ive noticed at the parties ive been too lately, seems the more dubstep there is the more much younger people there are there, and the majority dont even seem to be in to the music, just humping on some poor drugged up teenager
14:56 < sasquatc4> then again i also really hate dubstep, so it could be influencing my perception
14:57 <@Dickie> I hate teenagers
15:07 <@Bahhumbug> I hate people.  Does that count?
15:18 <@Dagmar> I think that's normal
15:19 <@Corydon76-home> Bahhumbug: so you're in the running to become CEO?
15:21 <@Dagmar> I've got a guy in another channel arguing that basically we shoud be fine with websites running native shader code on our GPUs through WebGL because ti would be too hard to come up with a safer mechanism
15:22 <@Bahhumbug> Corydon76-home: hehe
15:22 <@brimstone> failure at "too hard"
15:22 <@Corydon76-home> Dagmar: that sounds so much like you're right that I'm sure that you're omitting some critical detail.
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16:40 <@Bahhumbug> Fuck you, ICANN
16:40 <@Bahhumbug> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/06/17/202245/
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16:57  * Dickie punches himself in the face
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17:40 < eryc> Bahhumbug: why? that's a great move on their part
17:40 < eryc> something we've needed for a long time
17:42 <@Bahhumbug> uh-huh.
17:42 <@Bahhumbug> let me know how you mail program and other things handles bill@microsoft
17:42 <@Bahhumbug> s/how you/how your/
17:43 <@Bahhumbug> not to mention the hundreds of thousands or millions of lines of code that determine mail address validity in web apps.
17:43 <@Bahhumbug> and scoping issues are going to be a problem.
17:43 <@Bahhumbug> this is a disaster waiting to happen.
17:44 < eryc> TLDs don't have MX records
17:45 < eryc> and if you're still validating them you're wasting cpu
17:49 <@Bahhumbug> do you honestly believe that there won't be a resolvable apple.?
17:49 <@Bahhumbug> you realize that you can add an MX for com.?  nothing stopping you from doing that for apple. or microsoft.  same with any other RR except, perhaps, glue.
17:55 < eryc> You can't.  The TLD operator does not control that space.
17:56 < eryc> They get *.tld
17:56 <@coil> nerd battle
17:56 < eryc> ITS ON MOTHERFUCKER
18:00 <@Corydon76-home> eryc: uh, if you have *.apple, you can put a TLD at apple.
18:00 <@Corydon76-home> Err, MX record
18:01 <@Bahhumbug> You can add RRs at any level of the namespace, include . itself
18:01 <@Corydon76-home> However, it's a very common setting, thanks to Verisign's F-U to the Internet community a few years back, to set TLDs to be delegation-only
18:02 <@Corydon76-home> Disabling any wildcards and hostname records at the TLD
18:06 <@Corydon76-home> Heh... there should be hell to pay if anybody registers the TLDs printer, gateway, router, etc.
18:07 <@Corydon76-home> Rather stupid if they try to put a website at the TLD.  Half of the networks would route to the wrong machine
18:07 <@Bahhumbug> this whole thing is rather stupid.  ICANN is supposed to be a non-profit; and this whole thing stinks of money.
18:08 <@Corydon76-home> Non-profits worry about money, too
18:09 <@Bahhumbug> uh-huh.
18:56 < eryc> clearly you guys don't know how dns works today
19:45 <@Bahhumbug> "clearly"
19:46 <@Evilpig> I don't have to take this shit from the likes of you
19:47  * Evilpig slams the door and stomps off
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20:10 <@e2> HEY FUCK YOU PIG
20:10 <@e2> also
20:10 <@e2> you need to apply to our shop man
20:37 <@Evilpig> yeah yeah.  I know.
20:37 <@Evilpig> in the middle of some shit right now and don't need to be causing too many waves.
21:05 <@Dagmar> WELL IT'S ABOUT F**KING TIME
21:05 <@Dagmar> Redbox finally has video games for rental
21:05 <@Evilpig> heh
21:05 <@brimstone> ofly?
21:05 <@brimstone> orly?
21:06 <@Dagmar> http://www.redbox.com/games#format=ps3
21:06 <@Dagmar> They've been promising it for ages now
21:06 <@Dagmar> They've finally come through, and in this area even
21:06 <@Dagmar> I'm tempted to go rent DNF right now
21:07 <@Dagmar> $2/night.  NOt bad.
21:08 <@Dagmar> I guess now we just wait for them to spin off their new sister company, 'RedLightBox XXX'
21:08 <@Dagmar> You know, for porno rentals.
21:08 <@Dagmar> What the hell will we pirate then
21:40 <@Dagmar> Screw it.  I wanna see the damn thing and I'm definitely too lazy to pirate it nowadays or even waste time figuring out where to download the demo for DNF if I can rent the fucker for $2 and just ride down the street to pick it up
21:41 <@Dagmar> Scooternet is *VERY* high bandwidth for the latency involved.
22:18 <@Dagmar> I wonder if it's too late to return those two screens an get one of these on the wall: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150210068638212&set=a.109066368211.95238.662718211&type=1&theater
22:18 <@Dagmar> :)
22:18 <@Dagmar> 152 motherfucking inches of plasma
22:19 <@Evilpig> heh
22:19 <@Dagmar> I'm suprised there's no geeks praying to it
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 18 00:00:00 2011