--- Log opened Thu Jun 24 00:00:33 2010
00:37 -!- CRasH180 [~CRasH180@pdpc/supporter/silver/CRasH180] has quit [Quit: sleep]
00:37 < aestetix> sdodson: very well
00:51 -!- Falun [~richard@75-37-195-222.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #se2600
01:31 <@Dagmar> grrr... grub can suck it
03:45 -!- Falun [~richard@75-37-195-222.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:58 -!- Peaches1984 [silver@c-69-137-80-31.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
05:45 -!- Jagobah [~ljugo@74-141-112-78.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
07:08 -!- Dementia [~sara@maxiez.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:17 -!- Dementia [~sara@maxiez.com] has joined #se2600
07:17 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Dementia] by ChanServ
07:47 -!- tzanger [~tzanger@gromit.mixdown.ca] has joined #se2600
07:47 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o tzanger] by ChanServ
07:58 -!- nachoguy [~boster@nacho-tested.hrapproved.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:59 -!- nachoguy [~boster@nacho-tested.hrapproved.com] has joined #se2600
07:59 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o nachoguy] by ChanServ
08:08 -!- dasunt [~dasunt@174-20-178-120.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:12 -!- nachoguy [~boster@nacho-tested.hrapproved.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
08:31 -!- dzup is now known as dzupAFK
08:40 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
09:03 -!- dzupAFK is now known as dzup
09:49 <@sasquatc4> oooh, new eclipse marketplace is snazzy
10:00 <@Evilpig> http://i.imgur.com/ydzM5.jpg
10:18 -!- nachoguy [~boster@nacho-tested.hrapproved.com] has joined #se2600
10:19 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o nachoguy] by ChanServ
10:19 <@nachoguy> mr0nin
10:27 <@Dolemite> nacho hombre!
10:42 <@nachoguy> what's shakin, big pimpin?
10:43 <@Dolemite> So I officially became a Mason on Tuesday night
10:44 <@Corydon76-dig> So you're now engaging in homosexual sex while wearing a red robe and an animal mask while under a full moon?
10:44 <@Dolemite> Um, nope.  That'd be the Gasons.
10:45 <@nachoguy> Corydon76-dig: no, we've been over this.  Now his mystical training begins.  After a few years as an acolyte, he gets to learn the way of the exploding fist.  Then he learns to channel that to do actual stonecutting
10:45 <@Dolemite> with my mind
11:07 <@Dementia> Oh, now you're a mason, after I pay someone ridiculous amounts of money to rebuild my chimmney. Thanks a lot!
11:08 <@Dolemite> 'Mason', not 'mason'
11:08 <@Dementia> Tomato, tom-ah-to, whatever
11:09 <@Dolemite> Go fix some Cream of Darkness soup :P
11:09 <@Dementia> lol
11:09 <@Dolemite> Or some Bisque o' Chowder
11:09 <@Dementia> I prefer Gumbo Ho-Tep myself
11:24 -!- Peaches1984 [peuce@c-69-137-80-31.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
11:35 -!- epoxy [~epoxy@dialin.inttek.net] has joined #se2600
11:58 <@ware>  test
12:01 < epoxy> it worked!!
12:01 < epoxy> YAY
12:01 <@[1NF0]> tickles
12:07 <@ware> woohoo!
12:34 <@nachoguy> http://www.zooborns.com/zooborns/2010/06/nashville-zoo-welcomes-rare-clouded-leopard.html
12:36 -!- rattleX [~rattle@208.87.107.10] has joined #se2600
12:38 -!- rattleX [~rattle@208.87.107.10] has quit [Client Quit]
12:38 -!- rattleX [~rattle@208.87.107.10] has joined #se2600
12:39 -!- rattleX [~rattle@208.87.107.10] has quit [Client Quit]
13:02 <@opticron> nachoguy, it looks like it wants to eat me though the internet
13:06 <@polerin> http://www.tnimmigrant.org/home/2010/6/21/sb-1141-fact-sheet-arizona-like-policy-bad-for-tn.html
13:06 <@polerin> vigil tonight, but that's some fucked up shit.
13:10 <@Corydon76-dig> wtf?  Cookies that last until 2020?
13:13 <@Corydon76-dig> What is more sick is that the governor can do very little through a veto... it takes the same majority vote of both houses to override a veto
13:17 <@sdodson> that's not uncommon
13:17 <@sdodson> what's wrong with AZ?
13:17 <@Corydon76-dig> At least with Congress, it requires a 2/3rds majority
13:18 <@Corydon76-dig> The real problem is that the law will certainly be challenged in court; defense of the law will cost millions, and we don't need to be spending that money right now
13:18 <@Corydon76-dig> It's fiscally irresponsible to pass laws that will cost the taxpayer money and will likely be tossed out by the courts
13:20 <@Corydon76-dig> Any lawmaker that wants to pursue such a law should have to put up his own money for the defense of the law
13:21 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: but they're taking our jobs man!
13:21 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: that would only be true if they took jobs that paid a living wage.  Many aren't
13:22 <@Corydon76-dig> DOL is seeking to change that.  If DOL forces employers paying undocumented workers to pay living wages (as is their intent), then employers will no longer have an economic incentive to hire undocumented workers.  Once you take care of the economics, the problem solves itself
13:23 <@polerin> also, sdodson is totally trolling :P
13:23 <@polerin> Corydon76-dig: that's only one side of the economics.  The other side is helping mexico out of the situation we've helped them into
13:24 <@polerin> NAFTA was a shit end of the stick for Mexico.  the US too.
13:24 <@Corydon76-dig> polerin: No, what was funny was the conservatives who thought the DOL initiative was bad.  I think it takes care of the economics, which is the real force at play
13:24 <@Corydon76-dig> I don't believe any such thing about NAFTA
13:26 <@Corydon76-dig> If you're saying NAFTA created winners and losers, you've only identified losers.  Who are the winners?
13:26 <@Corydon76-dig> Canada?
13:27 <@polerin> the rich.
13:28 <@polerin> Anyone who can afford to invest in a goods production service that has moved south of the border
13:28 <@Corydon76-dig> And that doesn't help Mexico?
13:28 <@polerin> nope.
13:28 <@polerin> study after study have shown that the arrival of a factory tends to depress the standard of living while hurting the local environment
13:29 <@polerin> people give up farming and end up working for less than they were making.
13:29 <@polerin> after a while, this tends to produce greater numbers of people migrating to the US
13:29 <@polerin> to make up the familial income gap.
13:30 <@Corydon76-dig> Then fixing the environmental factors would tend to fix it
13:31 <@Corydon76-dig> If people really were making less in a factory than farming, then they should go back to farming
13:31 <@polerin> The basic idea behind labor being a market force assumes that the labor force has the power to stand up for itself and change jobs if one becomes unacceptable, but the reality of the situation is that we are trying to crack down on people who are doing just that
13:31 <@Corydon76-dig> "We" are?
13:31 <@polerin> we as a country
13:31 <@tzanger> we are?
13:31 <@Corydon76-dig> What stops them from going back to farming?
13:31 <@polerin> and so we make it harder for people to move to find better jobs, at the same time we are ruining their economy
13:32 <@polerin> Corydon76-dig: Farming tends to take capital to sustain, even if it's only in the form of seed crops and tools
13:32 <@Corydon76-dig> Last I checked, Mexico is a democracy... they're welcome to change their government if this was a problem
13:32 <@polerin> I've not seen the studies in a bit, but that's the main take away
13:32 <@polerin> yeah, because mexico's government is so awesome :P
13:33 <@Corydon76-dig> You get the government that you elect
13:33 <@polerin> not ot mention even if they changed the government, it's hard to back out of a treaty
13:33 <@Corydon76-dig> polerin: actually, it's very easy to back out of a treaty
13:34 <@polerin> I really really don't have the energy for a debate.  If you think the legislation is bad, then call Bredesen to ask him to veto. If not, then .. well.. whatever.  I don't have the energy or attention to argue.
13:35 <@Corydon76-dig> There's no point for Bredesen to veto.
13:35 <@Corydon76-dig> It'll just get overridden by the legislature
13:36 <@Corydon76-dig> If you really want stuff to change, help Matt Kenigson defeat Beth Harwell in the next election
13:36 <@polerin> the point is to go on record saying this is wrong, will cost TN millions of dollars (look at what is happening in AZ), and to take a stand for what's right
13:36 <@Corydon76-dig> Change the government to fix the problem
13:37 <@polerin> but until then we should just lay down and let the republicans do whatever with no complaint, and no fight.  NO.
13:38 <@Corydon76-dig> If you have an idea that will actually work, I'm open to it.
13:38 <@Corydon76-dig> But it's silly to put effort towards getting the governor to veto, when the legislature will just immediately override him
13:39 <@Corydon76-dig> Same as with the guns-in-restaurants law
13:40 <@Corydon76-dig> I may not like it.  But the governor vetoing it does exactly zero, nada, zilch.
13:40 <@polerin> Doing nothing depresses the democratic base, makes them feel like there is nothing worth fighting for because the democrats won't put up a fight, even if they can't win.
13:41 <@polerin> Not fighting only makes you lose.  Fighting will help by getting your point of view out there, for people to understand why it's fucked up
13:41 <@polerin> if you don't speak up, your opponents are the only one with a voice.
13:41 <@polerin> It's a long term stratigic consideration.  The dem's have been rolling over for years, and it doesn't help, it only drives more people to the right
13:41 <@polerin> they need a fucking backbone.
13:42 <@Corydon76-dig> and a good way to do that is to lend your efforts to candidates who can inject the pressure by threatening the ability of legislators to get reelected
13:43 <@Corydon76-dig> not by persuading the lame duck governor
13:44  * polerin sighs
13:44 <@Corydon76-dig> I'm on your side on the immigration law.  But I'm also for putting your efforts onto effective means.
13:45 <@Corydon76-dig> It'll be law for several months; many counties will tell their employees not to enforce it.  If we can change the legislature this fall, we can reverse the law after the first of the year.
13:46 <@polerin> Corydon76-dig: you're missing my point entirely.  It does not detract from an election campaign to ask the govenor to veto a bad bill, and it doesn't take much effort.  Not doing so hands the republicans an uncontested victory.
13:47 <@polerin> you can't just fight battles you can win, some battles have to be fought even if you know you're going to lose.  The republicans have known this, and this is why they are winning socially, across the country.
13:47 <@polerin> because it gets your message out there. it helps tell people what you're REALLY about.
13:48 <@Corydon76-dig> So tell the people; don't tell the governor
13:48 <@polerin> ...
13:48 <@polerin> why.
13:48 <@polerin> not.
13:48 <@polerin> you've made no point showing why he shouldn't veto it, other than that the legislature will override.
13:49 <@Corydon76-dig> Right, so it's wasted effort.  In economics, we have a concept known as opportunity cost.  The time you spend trying to convince to governor could be better spent elsewhere.
13:51 <@polerin> no, it's a loss leader
13:52 <@polerin> you spend effort to get something that's not immediatly attainable
13:52 <@polerin> it's why the country has been moving steadily rightward, because the conservatives never. shut. up.
13:52 <@polerin> they never stop fighting.
13:53 <@Corydon76-dig> In any case, this argument has an opportunity cost on my productivity, so I'll agree to disagree.
14:01 -!- aestetix [~aestetix@pinky.ratman.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
16:10 -!- epoxy [~epoxy@dialin.inttek.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:17 < rattle> I just peered with Facebook.
16:24 -!- warrenjon [~958899@66.83.201.3.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #se2600
16:45 -!- Jagobah [~ljugo@74-141-112-78.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #se2600
16:45 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Jagobah] by ChanServ
16:59 -!- tzanger [~tzanger@gromit.mixdown.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:29 -!- warrenjon [~958899@66.83.201.3.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
17:52 -!- epoxy [~epoxt___@68-112-53-229.dhcp.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #se2600
19:02 -!- epoxy [~epoxt___@68-112-53-229.dhcp.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
19:30 -!- coil_ [platypus@unaffiliated/coil] has joined #se2600
19:30 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o coil_] by ChanServ
19:34 -!- Feltenix_ [~Tanstaafl@adsl-074-166-075-102.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #se2600
19:34 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @coil, @Dolemite, @Feltenix, dzup
19:34 -!- Guest10809 is now known as coil
19:35 -!- coil is now known as Guest10998
19:36 -!- Netsplit over, joins: dzup
19:45 -!- aestetix [aestetix@pinky.ratman.org] has joined #se2600
19:50 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: nefD
19:51 -!- Netsplit over, joins: nefD
20:35 -!- coil_ is now known as coil
20:46 -!- gcs8 [~gcs8@74-60-230-118.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #se2600
21:15 -!- Feltenix_ is now known as Feltenix
21:15 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Feltenix] by ChanServ
21:39 -!- Dolemite [~scott@99-2-142-130.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #se2600
22:12 -!- mog [~mog@c-68-62-169-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:16 -!- mog [~mog@c-68-62-169-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
22:16 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mog] by ChanServ
22:55 -!- gcs8 [~gcs8@74-60-230-118.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:03 -!- knot [yiffstar66@unaffiliated/devemo] has joined #se2600
23:03 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o knot] by ChanServ
--- Log closed Fri Jun 25 00:00:33 2010