--- Log opened Sat Sep 06 00:00:06 2008
00:05 <@Corydon76-dig> Evilpig: he's in prison on drug charges
00:06 <@Corydon76-dig> Evilpig: got caught with pot in his car
00:07 < eryc> haha sucks
00:17 <@Dagmar> SEriously?
00:17 <+MxZBot> seriously are they newly changed one ways?
00:23 <@Corydon76-dig> Dagmar: No, but weren't you cheering the idea of Shadow404 getting cornholed in prison?
00:23 <@Dagmar> They don't put you in cornholing jail for a sack of weed.
00:24 <@Corydon76-dig> Depends on how much
00:24 <@Corydon76-dig> If it's beyond a certain threshold, the assumption is that you're a dealer
00:34 < wrench> or if you have an extra plastic baggie, or if you have over say $100 on your person, or if you have a gun(even if you have a permit for it)
00:35 <@Dagmar> I can't see *anyone* looking at Shadow404 and saying "Yep.  This guy is super dangerous"
00:36 < wrench> if law enforcement had a mission statement it would be "we don't give a fuck"
00:37 <@Dagmar> Maybe "We're going to have to fold him a few times to fit him in the back"
00:37 < wrench> they don't care if he's dangerous. its an easy collar that bolsters their record and brings in revenue
00:39 <@someninjamaster> wrench: its a felony to have a gun near drugs
00:39 <@someninjamaster> permit or not
00:39 <@someninjamaster> correction
00:39 <@someninjamaster> on your person
00:39 <@someninjamaster> or in your car with drugs
00:40 < wrench> thats what i said
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00:43 <@someninjamaster> oh i thought you were talking about the rather skechy things they can get you on
00:43 <@someninjamaster> like the 100 doller thing
00:43 <@someninjamaster> the gun things pretty cut and dry
00:43 < wrench> ah understood
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01:43 <@Catonic> sup
02:35 <@Catonic> this is annoying
02:35 <@Catonic> my UPS fans that have failed are the best fans I can find to replace them
02:35 <@scort> lots of things are
02:35 <@Catonic> NMB makes good fans, they bought Panaflo.
02:36 <@Catonic> but I *really* want to put a Nidec in there because they are quiet.
02:36 <@Catonic> but the nidec isn't a ball-bearing fan!
02:37 <@scort> oh what a world
02:37 <@scort> you should hang your self
02:51 <@Catonic> so ah...
02:52 <@Catonic> I discovered that if you pull the E-brake on my car, the cruise control doesn't disengage.
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04:59 < aestetix_> yo
06:16 <@Catonic> yup
06:59 < aestetix_> hey
06:59 < aestetix_> whats up
07:11 <@Catonic> sun, unforch
07:53  * Catonic dies
08:26 < dasunt> Meh.
08:40 <@polerin> http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/european-commission-says-racial-profiling-is-a-ok  (not what you would expect from the blog name.  Italian government is passing racist laws against the Roma.)
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08:51 < AstralSin> :(
08:51 < AstralSin> im constipated
08:52 <@Shadow404> b12 deficiancy
08:52 <@Catonic_lp> AstralSin: talk to Corydon76-dig. He'll give you a protien shake that'll clean you out.
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08:54 < AstralSin> Catonic_lp: no thank you
08:54 < AstralSin> i'd rather stay stopped up
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08:59 <@Shadow404> Catonic_lp: how would you know about said protien drink?
08:59  * Shadow404 worries about the wome...er men he brings home these days
09:27 <@brimstone> my protein drink brings all the boys to the yard?
09:35 <@Corydon76-dig> Catonic_lp: that protein shake doesn't clean you out
09:35 <@Corydon76-dig> Catonic_lp: but the enema might
09:44 <@Dagmar> So, in short, fuck those indymedia hypocrites
09:47 <@Corydon76-dig> Dagmar: eh?
09:48 <@Dagmar> TWICE I have posted on their little site pointing out serious flaws in the method they used to out a couple of "provocateurs" at one of the marches
09:48 <@Dagmar> TWICE they have deleted it.
09:49 <@Dagmar> They'll let borderline-illiterate people's posts that mildly question it stand, but they apparently can't handle anyone directly contradicting them.
09:49 <@Dagmar> ...while running their mouths about "free press".
09:51  * Catonic_lp loads another caffine epipen up
09:53 <@Corydon76-dig> Dagmar: well, there's a good reason that the mainstream press treats them as a propaganda machine
09:56 <@Corydon76-dig> and it's not all that difficult to see; just read a couple stories, and it's clear that they are, at best, an opinion mill.
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10:09 <@Catonic_lp> Death, or cake?
10:20 <@polerin> haha
10:20 <@polerin> awesome
10:21 <@polerin> Lissa goes to rent a small car for the trip down to tupalo
10:21 <@polerin> the rental place didn't renew the tags on the one they had, and all the others were kept over.  They upgraded her to a charger for no extra charge
10:23 <@Catonic_lp> wait until she sees the gas bill for the charger.
10:23 <@polerin> paid.
10:23 <@polerin> all expenses paid, including hotel, food, and travel
10:23 <@Catonic_lp> http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-39210-117.html
10:24 <@polerin> not even a per-diem
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10:38 <@Catonic_lp> i want lunch now.
10:44  * Corydon76-dig unzips for Catonic_lp 
10:45 <@GodFix> How did I get mistaken for Catonic last night?
10:46 <@Corydon76-dig> GodFix: I unzip for lots of guys
10:47 <@GodFix> Yeah, but this was before the weiners came out
10:48 <@GodFix> Then again, last night was only the 4th time anyone other than r seeblind have seen me
10:49 <@Corydon76-dig> You should hang out more
10:51 <@GodFix> Yes, I should
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11:17 <@Catonic_lp> lmfao
11:18 <@Catonic_lp> hesh is holding a box of dildos... "that big black one is thier leader."
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11:27 <@Catonic_lp> I have a bad idea.
11:27 <@Catonic_lp> Across from one of my favorite restaurants is an abortion clinic. In fact, the same abortion clinic that Eric Rudolph bombed.
11:27 <+MaxieZ> Really?  I hope it's not related to your previous comment :)
11:28 <@Catonic_lp> I'm tired of living a life different from every other city in the nation. I believe that the City Of Birmingham should do it's part to embrace the freedoms that other cities have known.
11:29 <@Catonic_lp> Birmingham, after all, is no stranger to controversy, as witnessed in the struggle for civil rights.
11:29 <+MaxieZ> Still listening...though a little scared
11:29 <@Catonic_lp> I therefore propose that a free-speech zone be erected for the protesters who loiter outside of the clinic, and on the sidewalk in front of the restaurant.
11:30 <+MaxieZ> A "free-speech" zone?
11:30 <+MaxieZ> I thought that was America.
11:31 <@Catonic_lp> I am certain that, given the opportunity and the man power, the City leaders will locate an appropriate place for the protesters to make thier cause known, in such a way as to not place the restaurants' patrons at risk.
11:32 <@Catonic_lp> this is why people like myself should not get into politics. Because people _will_ get burned at the stake.
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11:36 < TheLightCosine> morning se2600
11:37 <@Catonic_lp> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1894953479?ie=UTF8&tag=lookwhatifoun-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1894953479
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11:38 < TheLightCosine> hahaha
11:40 < TheLightCosine> great title
11:41 <@Catonic_lp> Would you rather make hamburgers out of two dead cows, or 1024 vegans?
11:42 < TheLightCosine> eeew vegans would'nt taste good
11:42 < TheLightCosine> they'd be all bland and stringy
11:43 <@Catonic_lp> I have really got to get back on my vegan diet, but I've been having too much fun putting on muscle mass.
11:45 < TheLightCosine> veganism is very difficult to do properly(i.e. not end up with nutritional deficiencies)
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11:45 < TheLightCosine> the ones i've ever known who didn't look sick and pale all the time could ahve qualified as nutritioninsts for all the shit they knew about diet
11:50 -!- Catonic_lp changed the topic of #se2600 to:  Shadow404 will be at PN.  Don't mention prison or being someone's bitch. | Aww, let's all sit around and bond about being harrassed and/or felt up by LEOs.
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12:03 <@Catonic_lp> I'm thinking.... "duct tape gi"
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12:06 < juice> hi
12:06 <@Catonic_lp> I'm loopy, and not making sense.
12:06 <@Catonic_lp> Quick, help me branch out!
12:06 < juice> normal then?
12:08 <@Catonic_lp> Mr. Potatohead was a mean drunk. A mean cannibal drunk. But one day, his victims turned his favorite instrument of torture against him. That was the day of the vegetable uprising, and the day Mr. Potatohead became The French Fried Seven.
12:09 <@polerin> heh
12:12 <@Catonic_lp> I've got an idea... let's feed roofies to ware and drop him off at a sorority house
12:12 <@Catonic_lp> he'll probably get laid, no one will ever believe it, and he'll hate himself in the morning for cheating on a woman who doesn't love him.
12:12 < AstralSin> oh man, my arcade rig is so sweet
12:13 < AstralSin> the pc running the roms isn't fast enough for newer games though, which sucks
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12:19 <@Shadow404> Catonic_lp: 57 / 75 freqs checked on 2m for atl area
12:19 <@Shadow404> almost done
12:20 <@Catonic_lp> I'm ttrying to think of a way to get to ATL from cheaha
12:20 <@Shadow404> irlp
12:20 <@Catonic_lp> no, i mean pseudo-rf
12:21 <@Catonic_lp> with far less delay
12:21 <@Shadow404> irlp is like a second delay, come on
12:21 <@Shadow404> there is an irlp gateway to w4doc
12:21 <@Shadow404> then you can talk to me puesdo rf
12:23 <@Shadow404> dude
12:23 <@Shadow404> node 1416
12:24 <@Shadow404> i can probably get that on simplex
12:24 <@Catonic_lp> Shadow404: give me a month or two
12:24 <@Shadow404> ok
12:25 <@Catonic_lp> I got$8K to blow on a ham station, I want to see what I can put together
12:25 <@Shadow404> nice
12:25 <@Shadow404> well i hit that node
12:27 <@Shadow404> after i finish 2m list, ill send that to you and start on the 70cm list
12:28 <@Shadow404> only have a omi tuned for 70cm though
12:43  * Catonic_lp refrains from making comparisons against power vs metal
13:06 <@sdodson> yay, finally home
13:10 <@Catonic_lp> sdodson: did that evil whore take you for all your money?
13:11 <@sdodson> dude how'd you know?
13:11 <@sdodson> were you there?
13:11 <@sdodson> some girl totally social engineered me out of my name and birthday
13:12 <@Catonic_lp> sdodson: she stole my wallet and my boyhood.
13:12 <@sdodson> what was her name?
13:12  * Catonic_lp starts crying and runs off
13:12 <+MaxieZ> Bitches
13:13 <@sdodson> i think Catonic_lp is really a woman.
13:14 <@Catonic_lp> If I am a woman, I am a very committed lesbian.
13:16 <@Jagobah> ;0
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13:41 < sleeeeept> Anyone here either recently hit Dragon*Con or know anything about 256?
13:43 <@Dagmar> It's the product of 2 x 128?
13:43 < sleeeeept> ;)
13:43 < sleeeeept> hsv2600.net isn't responding, apparently?
13:44 <@coil> im sure that site has been down for years
13:45 < sleeeeept> links on the site are... ambiguous on that point =)
13:45 <@Catonic_lp> what holmes?
13:46 <@Catonic_lp> it's hsv2600.org anyway
13:46 <@Catonic_lp> man, some ccnas just can't use google.
13:46 <@coil> yo mama uses google
13:47 <@sdodson> Catonic_lp: why not?!
13:49 < sleeeeept> thanks anyhow guys; got inspired to try to re-establish contact with the community; guess I'll aim for next month's meeting... cheers =)
13:49 <@coil> who are you
13:49 <@Catonic_lp> some doucherocket
13:49 <@coil> i bet...he's using verizons network
13:50 < sleeeeept> I'm out of pocket atm; not trying to be cute; just not sure what my reception would be dropping in here asking questions lol
13:51 <@Catonic_lp> well, first we beat the shit out of you and take your lunch money
13:51 <@Catonic_lp> sleeeeept: losi?
13:51 <@coil> i seriously doubt that
13:51 <@coil> he's being homo in auburn
13:52 <@Catonic_lp> well, it's not scud because he'd just drop in and be all like "what up bitches"
13:52 <@coil> angler?
13:52 <@Catonic_lp> and whozatmac is never bashful about anything...
13:52 <@Catonic_lp> nah, angler would just drop in like he never left
13:53 <@coil> kamelion?
13:53 <@coil> kameleon
13:53 < sleeeeept> naw, I'm an old ex-programmer; was involved with HSVGL for a bit, got some friends in Kat5kaos...
13:53 <@coil> oh shit
13:53 <@coil> i used to goto hsvgl lololol
13:53 < sleeeeept> lol
13:53 < sleeeeept> <-- Target
13:53 < sleeeeept> man I do miss the lans
13:53 <@coil> did you run the shit
13:53 <@coil> or just played
13:54 <@Catonic_lp> sleeeeept: wink?
13:54 < sleeeeept> I was on staff; when we had inet, I managed the routing and such, dhcp, etc.
13:55 <@coil> i wonder where that one old crazy guy that liked anime too much is
13:55 <@Catonic_lp> damn, I have some old-ass pictures of hsv2600...
13:55 < sleeeeept> ll
13:55 < sleeeeept> lol
13:55 <@Catonic_lp> those 18 year old girls must bel ike ... 23 now.
13:56 <@coil> Catonic_lp: that sux
13:56 <@Dagmar> pics of shens
13:56 < sleeeeept> eek, gotta hit the road back home... I'll drop in later with a more stable nick :)  Take care guys
13:57 <@Catonic_lp> http://catonic.us/wigi/pics/hsv2600/interz0ne-iii/pic00017-2.jpg
13:57 <@coil> that's the most ugly bitch i've seen
13:57 <@coil> cya sleeeeept drive save
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13:58 <@Catonic_lp> http://catonic.us/wigi/pics/hsv2600/may-03/pic00011.jpg <- blonde
13:59 <@Catonic_lp> AAAAUGH
14:00 <@Catonic_lp> I just saw a picture of myself from PN6... MAKE IT GO AWAY
14:00 <@wizardpc> you know, I'm kinda having fun talking to recruiters again
14:00 <@coil> was that the one you took me?
14:00 <@Dagmar> Who was the blonde
14:01 <@wizardpc> I get to say "So, you're finally calling me back after eighteen months, eh?"
14:01 <@Catonic_lp> http://catonic.us/wigi/pics/hsv2600/phreaknic7/pic00043.jpg <- the last time SkyDog_ saw his abs.
14:01 <@coil> aw shit
14:02 <@Catonic_lp> http://catonic.us/wigi/pics/hsv2600/mark/marko.jpg
14:03 <@coil> hgahah i remember that
14:04 <@Catonic_lp> http://catonic.us/wigi/pics/hsv2600/phreaknic10/img002.jpg <- who's that beautiful girl getting her hair ironed?
14:04  * Catonic_lp ducks
14:04 <@Dagmar> Looks like Shadow
14:04 <@Catonic_lp> Dagmar: close. You got the BMI correct.
14:05 <@coil> assticks?
14:05 <@Catonic_lp> asstricktics?
14:05 <@coil> no
14:06 < dochench> fun talking to recruiters? bleh. i fucking hate recruiters.. make their bucks trading other ppls talents.
14:07 <@Catonic_lp> I don't talk to recruiters.
14:07 <@Catonic_lp> I talk to pimps. Pimps get results. Recruiters just recruit.
14:08 <@coil> they lie and do anything to get you in
14:09 <@Dagmar> Yeah, well, last time I saw you talking to pimps you almost got arrested for it
14:09 <@Dagmar> Maybe you should stick with recruiters
14:09 <@Catonic_lp> Dagmar: I do not remember this.
14:10 < dochench> heh, redhat sent my confirmation email for the rhce test.. it made sure to mention the dress code is causal.. i think the dress code is whatever i want it to be when i'm paying 800 bucks out of my own pocket.
14:10 <@Catonic_lp> dochench: bathrobe and bunny slippers.
14:10 < dochench> i was thinking maybe a freebsd t-shirt. :)
14:11 <@coil> hot
14:11 <@Catonic_lp> dochench: go for the bitchkick: a sun java beans shirt.
14:11 < dochench> heh
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14:15 <@Catonic_lp> Dagmar: I've been dealt some interesting hands in life, but I've never had to resort to the services of a professional.
14:19 <@polerin> no way, you should do in with a SCO shirt
14:20  * dochench trys to remember the nick of the guy from atl that came to the early phreaknics that was freebsd fan and would always dress in drag
14:20 <@Dagmar> polerin: Ya, so apparently the indymedia people are just whiny hypocrites
14:20 < dochench> hugme!
14:20 < dochench> that was it
14:20 < dochench> what happened to hugme?
14:28 <@Shadow404> Catonic_lp: list sent
14:28 <@polerin> Dagmar: what, deleted teh comment again?
14:29 <@polerin> have you considered going onto irc.indymedia.org and uh.. asking them?
14:29 <@Dagmar> polerin: Not worth my trouble
14:29 <@polerin> http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-%E2%80%9Cracist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean%E2%80%9D/
14:29 <@Dagmar> I've seen enough that's "off" from them already
14:29 <@polerin> check THAT ou :P
14:29 <@polerin> t
14:30 <@Dagmar> I mean, the whole "We're wanting a 100% peacful protest" while the site is making jokes about building barricades and smashing cars kinda blew most of their creditbility
14:30 <@Dagmar> That they're censoring people calling their assessments of strangers into question doesn't suprise me in the least.
14:31 <@Dagmar> s/creditbility/credibility/;
14:32 < dochench> http://web.archive.org/web/20041016055557/www.phreaknic.org/pix97/hacker_inside.jpg
14:32 < dochench> dag, you haven't physically aged much in 10 years.
14:33  * polerin refrains from a crack about him not maturing either 
14:34 <@Dagmar> dochench: Aging is for people who plan to die
14:34 <@Dagmar> IU'm just getting warmed up
14:34 < dochench> heh :)
14:34 <@coil> him polerin ?
14:35 <@Catonic_lp> lol: artic meth princess
14:36 <@polerin> hehe
14:37 <@Catonic_lp> Dagmar: picture is aestetix getting his hair ironed by electra.
14:39 < dochench> anyone want any old industrial rack mount pentium machines?
14:40 <@Catonic_lp> dochench: not ever for the satisfaction of driving a sledge through them
14:40 < dochench> i only have like 30 of them i need to get rid of. :)
15:00 <@sdodson> dochench: you taking just the test?
15:00 <@sdodson> http://sanbarrow.com/vmx.html  <--- every vmeware option you'd ever run into
15:08 < dochench> sdodson: yah
15:08 <@sdodson> Good luck, it's not too bad.
15:10 < dochench> thx, didn't think it would be.. i passed all their practice/assesment test, but haven't actually touched a red hat system in like 8 years.. going to play around with centos and maybe get a study guide.
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15:12 <@sdodson> They've basically spelled everything out in the online prep docs.
15:12 <@sdodson> They provide a great checklist for the stuff you'll need to know.
15:15 < dochench> been looking for a new job and everone wants to know if i have a rhce, and i'm like no, but i've been an admin for 10 years.. but apparently exp doesn't count here in TN... so i'll go get the RHCE. hehe
15:16 < dochench> i guess 10 years exp + LPIC + AIX cert != RHCE
15:18 <@sdodson> there's no smit in rhel
15:20 < dochench> yet another reason AIX trumps rh. although smit is a glorified script builder, still better than nothing.
15:21 < dochench> i'd really like to get into some type solaris gig... really like solaris these days.
15:22 <@sdodson> So you'd want a centralized interface to all the system-config tools?
15:22 < dochench> as long as you weren't REQUIRED to use it, sure...
15:23 <@sdodson> system-config-cluster is the only one you're sort of required to use because editing xml files by hand is lame.
15:23 <@sdodson> But conga replaces that anyway so now you haev a shiny web interface
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15:57 < aestetix_> yo
15:57 <@tcstool> yo aestetix
15:59 < aestetix_> whats up
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16:05 <@coil> yo
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17:13 <@Catonic> i <3 load testing UPSes without proper loads.
17:14 <@Catonic> There is nothing like that feeling of accomplishment when you plug the steamer into the UPS and watch the load meter go to 75% and know that you've found the perfect resistive load for testing without dumping assloads of heat into the air.
17:14 < dochench> and steamed rice to boot. :)
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17:15 <@scort> ???
17:17 < dochench> !!!
17:17 < AstralSin> ...
17:19 <@Catonic> dochench: batteries are new, I wanted them to get an equalize charge first.
17:19 <@Catonic> So... no steamed rice.
17:20 <@Catonic> This ups is 1998 vintage, has contact closures via DB9 to indicate failure.
17:20 <@sdodson> wait, a steamer doesn't dump assloads of heat into the air?
17:20 <@Catonic> automatic bypass if anything happens...
17:20 <@Catonic> and it bitches at you when it's on bypass =)
17:20 <@sdodson> And I thought UPSes weren't proper for resistive loads?
17:21 <@Catonic> sdodson: read into power factor correction
17:21 <@scort> how do i Catonic
17:21 <@poiupoiu> hooray cos(wt + phi!)
17:22 <@sdodson> parently we got 6 inches of rain
17:23 <@scort> hot
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18:57 <@scort> EHCI UHCI OHCI
18:58 <@scort> ????
19:03 <@ladymerlin> whee
19:06 < AstralSin> sup
19:09 < AstralSin> you know, i remember a time when i was compeltely up in arms about Spore, now its being released tomorrow and i really couldn't give a shit less
19:09 <@Dagmar> It's coming out tomorrow?
19:09 < AstralSin> yep
19:09 <@Dagmar> I'll have to stop by WalMart on the way home then
19:10 <@Dagmar> They're liable to already have it on the shelves
19:10 < AstralSin> by midnight for sure, i'd think
19:12 <@Dagmar> Actually, I think I'll be lazy and just order it through Amazon or something
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19:15 <@scort> hmm is it safe to run two instances of the same vm?
19:17 <@Dagmar> Actually, fuck shipping it
19:17 <@Dagmar> http://www.direct2drive.com/6181/product/Buy-SPORE-(Pre-Order)-Download?cmp=slosp
19:19 < AstralSin> hm, interesting
19:19 <@Dagmar> I'll just leave it downloading that tomorrow before I go to work
19:19 < AstralSin> now, you guys may not be into wine but i think this link is interesting nonetheless... its not about wine though the show normally is
19:19 < AstralSin> http://tv.winelibrary.com/2008/09/05/a-special-weekend-episode-episode-534/
19:20 < AstralSin> its a show about a bizarre new thing from japan
19:22 <@Dagmar> Pardon me while I email that link to the guys at Salvation
19:23 < AstralSin> whats salvation?
19:23 <@Dagmar> Goth night at a club
19:23 < AstralSin> hah
19:23 < AstralSin> well, it is suitable for such :)
19:24 <@Dagmar> Exactly
19:27 <@Dagmar> wwHmmmm
19:27 <@Dagmar> I might stop by there on the way home tomorrow night
19:27 <@Dagmar> http://events.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.detail&eventID=453371.47812&Mytoken=66346D78-83DE-4151-AB278DD998ABF86A70337885
19:28 < AstralSin> ugh, i hate goths
19:29 < AstralSin> except hot goth chicks
19:29 < AstralSin> but overall, i hate goths
19:29 <@Dagmar> I'm more fine with goths now than I used to be, now that we've got those emo kids spun off into their own, pathetic little group
19:29 <@Dagmar> Now to work on the guys who wear fishnet shirts, but are paunchy.
19:29 < AstralSin> oh, don't get me wrong, i hate emos worse than i hate goths, but i still hate goths
19:30 <@polerin> why?
19:30 <@tcstool> Both groups get on my nerves equally
19:30 < AstralSin> they're fuckin irritating, all wearing makeup and they always have something snippy to say about everything like they're better than everything else because they're goth and they listen to marilyn manson or some shit
19:31 < AstralSin> or even worse, shitty black metal
19:31 <@Dagmar> So basically, you don't actually know any goths, and you're just pissed because they won't talk to you
19:31 < AstralSin> no, i've known goths, hence my hatred for them
19:32 < AstralSin> they're like one-uppers only worse
19:32 <@polerin> yeahhh...  uh..  that doesn't really sound like any goths I know
19:32 <@Dagmar> Same here
19:32 <@Dagmar> THe ones I know, if they don't like you, you just won't hear anything from them
19:33 < AstralSin> i guess the goths down here are more vocal
19:33 <@polerin> and genrally it's not the goths who have an issue with acting like anything you say is stupid
19:33 <@Dagmar> Sounds like they've not encountered enough attitude correcting jack boots
19:34 <@polerin> Dagmar: either that or they aren't really being stupid
19:34 <@ShadowHntr> *yawn*
19:34 < AstralSin> sup ShadowHntr
19:34 <@ShadowHntr> sup astral
19:34 <@ShadowHntr> lol
19:35 <@ShadowHntr> "channeling the spirit of ShadowHntr by playing YouTube videos" lol
19:35 <@ShadowHntr> :)
19:36 <@polerin> AstralSin: not to mention, since when is it bad for someone to have something to say?
19:37 < AstralSin> there's a difference in having something to say and having something bad to say about anything anyone else says
19:38 <@polerin> so saying something is ok, unless you disagree?
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19:39 < AstralSin> i'm just saying its really douchebaggy to have something negative to say at every turn of any conversation, then making a point to make a big deal about it, which is exactly what every goth i've ever known did
19:43 <@polerin> so... how do you feel about punks?
19:43 < AstralSin> depends, i have had some really cool punk friends but they weren't like full-blown neon-green mohawk punks but they did sport normal punk attire and listened to old-school punk music
19:44 < AstralSin> they weren't the main group i hung around, but when i was around them i did always have a pretty good time
19:44 < AstralSin> punks throw a pretty fuckin bitchin party
19:44 < AstralSin> real punks, not those poser fucks that listen to green day and think they're punk
19:45 < AstralSin> real punks at least buy (steal) good beer... or at least better beer than bud light
19:47 < wrench> metal chicks thrive on drugs and drama...don't know many punks or goths
19:47 < AstralSin> the metal chicks are about 50/50 with the drama thing, but both punks and metal chicks do drugs
19:48 < AstralSin> but punk chicks do the drama thing, too, i've seen it
19:48  * polerin gives up on this discussion
19:48 <@polerin> oh, one more actually
19:48 <@polerin> the hippies? :)
19:48 < wrench> hippies never have their own tobacco
19:49 < wrench> but they have plenty of other goodies to trade
19:49 < AstralSin> hippie chicks are usually really hot, but god damn they can get irritating with their patchouli and flowers
19:49 < AstralSin> well, i won't say usually
19:49 < AstralSin> lets just say they can be
19:49 < wrench> and hair and B.O. in MANY cases
19:49 < AstralSin> yeah, that too
19:50 <@polerin> and note I didn't specify chicks
19:50 <@polerin> .. not that I would :P
19:50 < AstralSin> i worked the ice cream booth at itchycoo, the first gathering of hippies in manchester, i saw this one hippie chick that was wearing a bikini top and a skirt and god damn she woulda been hot if she didn't have chest hair
19:51 <@Dagmar> Okay, so I don't know about the idlers, but I'm just getting more and more convinced you guys don't get out of the house enough by the minute
19:51 < wrench> didn't know guys could really be hippies -- always just thought that they were non-confrontational drug users that don't shower
19:51 < AstralSin> i get along really really well with real, old school hippies, not the new school fucks that listen to phish and shit but the old timers from the 60s
19:52 < AstralSin> i love hanging out with genuine hippies, they're very wise people and know how to have fun... and they have some fuckin bitchin pot
19:53 < AstralSin> and even though i don't get high anymore, i still enjoy the company of some laid back old fuck hippies
19:55 < wrench> the presidential is in early November right?
19:55 <@ShadowHntr> my uncle's like that
19:55 < AstralSin> my dad's like that :)
19:55 < AstralSin> wrench: yes
19:55 < wrench> damn...gettin close
19:55 <@ShadowHntr> is a walking encyclopedia of movie actor trivia, used to be an LA cab driver
19:55 -!- M0j0-j0j0 [n=Mojo_Joj@cpe-071-070-193-020.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #se2600
19:55 < AstralSin> i've joined the Who Gives A Shit '08 campaign
19:55 < dochench> tru-blood.. are they serious?
19:56 <@ShadowHntr> and can get some damn good pot
19:56 < wrench> I think the last debate takes place in Nashville
19:56 <@polerin> given your rejection of anyone who gives a shit, yeah I'm not supprised
19:56 < AstralSin> ShadowHntr: my dad is a walking trivia tome of 60s and 70s hippie music and various homegrown strains
19:56 <@Dagmar> dochench: It's the Japanese
19:56 < AstralSin> dochench: yes
19:56 <@ShadowHntr> AstralSin: hehehehe :)
19:56 < dochench> ah. of course they're serious then.
19:56 <@Dagmar> dochench: These are the people who take extremes to new extreme and sell used womens' underwear in vending machines
19:56 < AstralSin> i take that back, not really hippie music, but classic rock... hillbilly hippie music
19:56 < wrench> will the debates include any 3rd party candidates or just the big 2?
19:57 <@polerin> what do you think :P
19:57 < wrench> big 2
19:57 < dochench> big 0
19:58 < wrench> it would be sweet if we could vote for actual plans of action on the issues instead of these people.
19:58 < wrench> I would be down for that
19:58 <@polerin> move to cali.
19:58 < wrench> why cali?
19:58  * dochench votes for wrench's plan of action
19:58 <@polerin> ...
19:58 <@polerin> never mind.
19:59 <@polerin> I'm going to shut up before someone thinks I'm disageeing for the sake of disagreeing :P
19:59  * AstralSin is gonna write himself into the ballots on the next election
19:59 <@Dagmar> Just stab a few people
19:59 < AstralSin> everyone in america should do that next election
20:00 < AstralSin> just write themselves in
20:00 < wrench> it just seems like we don't need these guys anymore. we could elect a bunch of folks to draft different laws and then everyone could vote for the one that they think would work.
20:01 <@polerin> yeah that sounds like a good idea.  I'm supprised nobody has thought of it before
20:01 <@polerin> you should put a proposition on the ballot for that.
20:02 < AstralSin> fuck, i smell skunk and ALL the windows in my house are open
20:02 < wrench> I guess the biggest problem would be finding existing politicians who would be willing to vote themselves out of power.
20:03 <@polerin> wrench: I hear that the republican ticket are a bunch of mavericks and reformers.  they might go for it
20:03 < wrench> I don't think either side has ever given up ANY power that I can recall.
20:04 < M0j0-j0j0> AstralSin: there's an issue of mythBusters that deals with skunks
20:04 < AstralSin> yeah, i've seen it
20:05 < dochench> and they won't unless people die(ala french revolution style). this is why the government is the largest employer of ppl.
20:05 < wrench> dochench: that makes sense. Wonder if people will ever get pissed enough to get to that level?
20:05 < dochench> eventually, yes.
20:06 < wrench> that's ensuring and unnerving at the same time
20:06 < dochench> it's part of the cycle of things.
20:06 < wrench> assuring i mean
20:06 < dochench> when is the big question.. in 20 years or 2000.
20:08 < wrench> it'd be badass if they had fantasy candidate...like fantasy football. You would take different issue stances from different politicians and compile them into your virtual-super-candidate.
20:09  * wrench is done dreaming for now
20:09 <@polerin> wrench: so what would your super-canidate look like in terms of policy?
20:10 < wrench> hmmm...pro 2nd amendment, anti-imperialist, pro-choice, net-nuetrality, strict consitiutionalist
20:11 < wrench> smaller, more transparent government
20:11 < AstralSin> im in on that
20:11 < wrench> 1 term limits for ALL government positions
20:11 < AstralSin> i disagree with that, that would mean that perfect president could only be there 1 term, then its time for another douchebag
20:12 < dochench> disagree on term limits also.. maybe more a twice yearly report card... they fail a class, they get expelled. :)
20:12 < wrench> deal w/ all the Bush blowback, soften our world image. We can stay safe w/o invading everyone if we focus on stuff here.
20:12 < AstralSin> thats a better idea
20:12 < wrench> dochench: i dig that
20:12 < AstralSin> unlimited term length, but when they fail they fall below a certain approval rating, its time for a new election
20:14 < AstralSin> the future of america, being cultured in #se2600... imagine that
20:14 < wrench> heh
20:14 <@polerin> wrench: what do you mean by strict constitutionalist?
20:14 <@polerin> wrench: what kind of things would you not like?
20:15 <@polerin> or rather do you not agree with in the government that you define as being due to loose interpretation of the constitution?
20:15 < AstralSin> polerin: the patriot act, which overwrites some pretty important shit in the constitution
20:15 < wrench> I don't like the patriot act, FISA, etc
20:15 < wrench> the ever-growing executive power
20:16 < wrench> the FAKE wars: on drugs, terror
20:16 <@polerin> what about about stuff like the seperation of church and state?
20:16 < wrench> strongly FOR the separation
20:16 <@polerin> and affirmative action?
20:16 < wrench> against affirmative action
20:16 <@sdodson> separation
20:16 < wrench> not the gov's role
20:16 < AstralSin> i strongly believe that the church and state shouldn't even be in the same building
20:16 <@polerin> (most people who ask for strict constitutionalists are against the seperation
20:16 <@polerin> shush sdodson
20:17 <@sdodson> separation
20:17 < wrench> I'm really for it...we don't even need "In God we trust"
20:17 <@polerin> wrench: so how would your canidate propose to help fix racial inequality?
20:17 < wrench> thats not his job
20:17 < AstralSin> "In God we trust" wasn't even added to currency until the 1920s or 30s, i can't remember
20:17 <@sdodson> You assume there is racial inequality.
20:17 < wrench> polerin: you can't legislate the hearts of men
20:18 < wrench> its pointless
20:18 <@sdodson> 1864
20:18 < wrench> hate will never be illegal and can never be changed by force
20:19 <@sdodson> http://www.nonbeliever.org/images/CR102-13917.pdf
20:19 < wrench> you think affirmative action makes people feel fonder about minority groups?
20:20 < wrench> it just makes it worse
20:20 <@sdodson> I'm not sure there's racial inequality.
20:20 < wrench> whether there is or not is not relevant to politics
20:20 < dochench> financial and educational inequality, not really racial.
20:21 < dochench> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhdYB0Hdas  nice.
20:21 <@sdodson> I don't believe there's inequality there.
20:22 < AstralSin> just to let everyone know, i just crossed the threshold of drunkenness and now think that we should all just revert back to complete anarchism and kill one another at will
20:22 < AstralSin> and club women and drag them back to our caves to engage in sexual debauchery
20:23 <@sdodson> You've been talking to Catonic haven't you?
20:23 < dochench> astralsin: actually everything does boil down to killing each other... force... the thing that lies at the lowest levels of everything else.
20:24 <@timoguin> I'm going to kill my girlfriend tonight!
20:25 <@brimstone> pics
20:25 <@sdodson> hawt
20:29 <@polerin> sdodson: so, what would you consider racial inequality?
20:30 < AstralSin> referring to it as 'racial inequality' rather than 'human inequality'
20:30 <@polerin> and actually anarchy (not anarchism)
20:31 <@polerin> AstralSin: why, when it is inequallity between the races?
20:31 <@polerin> AstralSin: and what about sexism?
20:32 <@polerin> wrench: so in other words, you think the governemnt should stay out of social issues?
20:32 <@polerin> except for seperation of church and state, and net neutrality
20:32 < AstralSin> we're still all the same species, races shouldn't matter that much, i'm a hate monger, but i hate everyone equally so i'm not racist
20:32 <@polerin> AstralSin: the onlyt problem is that race does matter (Look at all the Obama bin laden crap)
20:33 < AstralSin> its not even about the government being involved, i don't think that really even matters that much, people should just realize that everyone's the same no matter the color
20:33 <@polerin> and that there is institutionalized difference in access and income for racial minorities
20:34 <@polerin> (hell, metro nashville is basicly re-segragating the schools)
20:34 < AstralSin> i know race matters, but in the end, i don't know that any sort of government intervention can help things, its a social issue, not a political one
20:34 <@polerin> so employers should be able to pay black people less if they want too?
20:35 < AstralSin> the bottom line being that all the legislation in the world can be passed but the populace of America needs to accept one another
20:35 <@polerin> and people should be able to burn crosses in peoples lawn?
20:35 <@polerin> AstralSin: unless they are goths.  :D
20:35 < AstralSin> right
20:35 < AstralSin> now you're catching on!
20:35 < dochench> polerin, people should be able to brun crosses in their own lawns, and employers should be able to whoever, whatever they want.
20:36 <@sdodson> polerin: If the government did anything to encourage financial or educational inequality.
20:36 <@polerin> dochench: oh, so no employment legislation whatsoever?
20:36 < dochench> the government should build roads. that's about it.
20:36 <@polerin> ah
20:36 <@polerin> so, no monopoly protection
20:36 <@polerin> probably (still) contracting out the road building right?
20:37 < dochench> monopoly protection is with the consumer. don't buy shit from monopolies.
20:37 < AstralSin> polerin: companies should pay based on skills, not race, and not have people bitch when a black man with no skills gets paid less than a white man with skills
20:37 < AstralSin> for example
20:37 < AstralSin> and vice versa
20:37 <@polerin> dochench@c-68-52-22-101.hsd1.tn.comcast.net  (no comment needed really)
20:38 < dochench> polerin, att, clearwire, their ARE alternatives.
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20:38 <@polerin> so it's an ologarchy :P
20:38 <@Dagmar> Clearwire == latency
20:38 <@polerin> err
20:38 <@Dagmar> Not as bad as Hughes, but still unusually high latency
20:38 < dochench> i use comcast for the speed, they have pissed me off a few times and i've told em to stick it. i eventually come back because noone else provides the speed they do.
20:38 <@polerin> that's not the right word
20:38 < dochench> dag, but it makes a nice comcast fallback. i have them too.
20:39 <@polerin> dochench: and by the way
20:39 <@polerin> you know why there are alternatives?
20:39 <@polerin> the government broke up bell.
20:39 < dochench> because of the market. no at&t is back.
20:40 <@Dagmar> Yeah, so now we have the cable monopoly option, and the telco monopoly option
20:40 <@Dagmar> yay
20:40 <@polerin> dochench: at&t is back because the government is taking a hands off approach to monopoly regulation
20:40 < dochench> good. the market chooses.
20:41 <@polerin> aaaaaaaaaaaand the market has chosen to provide one choice.
20:41 <@Dagmar> The market doesn't choose
20:41 <@polerin> awesome.
20:41 <@Dagmar> The largest corporations choose.
20:41 < dochench> if people use comcast for the speed. then apparently they are willling to put up with the lack of everything else. vote with your dollar.
20:41 <@Dagmar> Generally they choose to make one big company so they can work together to fuck everyone else over.
20:41 < dochench> dag, that is what superclass is all about. good book.
20:41  * AstralSin has the worm shot from a bottle of mezcal in front of him
20:41 <@Dagmar> dochench: That's a fallaxy
20:41 <@Dagmar> er fallacy
20:41 < dochench> disagree
20:41 < dochench> just the way things work
20:41 <@Dagmar> It doesn't mean they're willing to "put up with" a lack of everything else
20:42 <@polerin> dochench: and J.P. Morgan?
20:42 <@Dagmar> That's just so broken an assertion it's not funny
20:42 <@Dagmar> You can be QUITE willing to pay for an alternative, and there not be one..
20:42 <@polerin> dochench: the other examples of monopoly
20:42  * AstralSin is really good at monopoly
20:42 <@Dagmar> Willing customers does NOT mean alternatives will just magically spring up, *especially* in the presence of a monopoly
20:42 < AstralSin> atlantik ftw
20:42 < dochench> dag, wasn't talking about comcast just the way things work, was talking about superclass/corps the way things work
20:43 <@Dagmar> This is one of the reasons monopolies are bad
20:43 < M0j0-j0j0> and... it's a really long game
20:43 < dochench> http://www.amazon.com/Superclass-Global-Power-Elite-Making/dp/0374272107
20:44 <@polerin> dochench: so, for those of us who haven't read your specific book to understand the way you are using the (non-dictionary)word...
20:44 <@polerin> what do you define as a superclass?
20:45 <@polerin> and is it good or bad
20:45 < M0j0-j0j0> superclass... that's what I have
20:45 < dochench> above the normal rules and operations.. do what thou wilt (even if it harms someone else).. not really good or bad... just is.
20:45 <@polerin> ok
20:45 < M0j0-j0j0> it's when you know what wine to order with what food
20:45 < dochench> is having a manager bad? same type thing.
20:45 <@polerin> so it's a company?
20:45 < dochench> in a way, yes
20:46 <@polerin> or it's any subject who is above normal rules?
20:46 <@polerin> so a CEO could be in a superclass?
20:46 <@Dagmar> I think he might be talking about supra-national corporations
20:46 < dochench> not really
20:46 <@polerin> or is it THE superclass?
20:46 < AstralSin> has anyone delved into iphone development?
20:47 <@polerin> and how is having something be above the law the same as a manager
20:47 <@polerin> (which by the way I define as bad)
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20:47 < dochench> i was saying it isn't really good or bad... just is.. like having a manager. having a manager isn't good or bad, it just is.
20:48 < M0j0-j0j0> some people are above the law
20:48 <@polerin> and tell me how your goverment would keep these companies that are in your superclass(es?) from wiping the floor with smaller companies that are actually, you know.. subject to market forces?
20:48 < dochench> they don't...
20:48 < dochench> and won't.
20:48 <@polerin> so.. in otherwords, super classes are ok
20:48 < dochench> the gov't doesn't currently do it.
20:48 <@polerin> and they should be able to create monopolies
20:49 <@polerin> because interference would be bad.
20:49 < M0j0-j0j0> I think they are trying to say that superclasses are like the Illuminati or what some people name of Masonic Lodge
20:50 -!- ShadowHntr [i=sentinel@wikipedia/Shadowhntr] has quit ["End of line."]
20:50 < dochench> read the reviews... then check it out from the library.
20:50 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: how was the meeting?
20:50 < M0j0-j0j0> I cants read right
20:50 < dochench> In the words of former Navy Secretary John Lehman, "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat." Why would the superclass want to give it up?
20:51 <@polerin> dochench: uhm, because people can call them to task for it?
20:52 <@polerin> dochench: and strip it from them
20:52 < dochench> ala french revolution.. that's the only way.
20:52 <@polerin> not the only, but it is indeed one
20:53 <@polerin> but in your ideal government, there is nothing to keep someone from elevating themselves to the level of a superclass
20:53 <@polerin> or a corperation
20:53 < dochench> and to do that. you have to have numbers.. as long as people keep buying ipods and big macs, it'll never happen.
20:53 < dochench> what you mean "my ideal government"?
20:54 <@polerin> you're promoting what seems a fairly basic free market, lasse faire (spelling sorry) sorta vanella conservitive libertarian government from what I can tell
20:54 <@polerin> roads and (possibly?) military?
20:55 <@polerin> from what I can see
20:56 <@polerin> and saying that the free market should be left to regulate everything
20:56 <@polerin> (including environmental policy.. eeeeeech.
20:56 < dochench> ya, i guess so. :)
20:57 <@polerin> ok
20:57 <@polerin> what in that government keeps a corperation from growing to the state of a superclass (even assuming that we are starting from zero, which we are definatly not)
20:58 < dochench> a corp is not a person. a corp isn't superclass. a person is. corps are just paper.
20:58 <@polerin> ok
20:58 <@polerin> lets put this another way
20:58 < dochench> money does. if comcast was really so shitty, people wouldn't use them and they'd go away.
20:59 <@polerin> what about oil companies
20:59 <@polerin> ?
20:59 <@polerin> GE
20:59 <@polerin> companies like that.
20:59 <@sdodson> polerin: FIGHT THE MAN!
20:59 < dochench> they are huge, yeah, they manufacture a bit of everything. one reason they are so huge IS the government tho.
20:59 < M0j0-j0j0> I don't think I'd call out GE
21:00 <@polerin> M0j0-j0j0: dood, have you ever looked at the scope of GE?
21:00 <@polerin> they are frightening
21:01 <@Dagmar> dochench: That's pretty false.  They have no other alternative to Comcast..
21:01 < dochench> dag, yes you do. your won't wither and die if you don't have 8 meg down/ 1 up
21:01 < dochench> it is a luxury
21:02 < M0j0-j0j0> polerin: I think if was GE was more of an evil company it would be scary, but they aren't as evil as hey could be
21:02 < nated0g> or just get a job at a ISP
21:02 <@Dagmar> I have yet to see 1Mb up or 8Mb down
21:02 <@polerin> anyway, dochench you're saying that in a lasse faire economy where the government does not touch the economy except as a market player for road construction dollars, the market alone would keep companies from being so powerful that they are able to squash any competition before it starts
21:02 <@sdodson> It doesn't have to be a necessity in order to be a monopoly.
21:02 <@polerin> sdodson: yup I agree
21:03 <@Dagmar> There's also the matter of there is no way for a telco-based ISP to compete with that infrastructure without _being_ the telco
21:03 <@sdodson> I think utilities, where there's incredible capital invested in infrastructure that the government should provide that infrastructure and then sell capacity to thirt party providers at a standard rate.
21:03 < dochench> ok, nes, metro water. those are monopolies. i need water. i have to pay whatever they say. my cable company doesn't count.
21:03 < nated0g> i have 8 down and 512 up. my manager said i could get 1 up if i wanted to
21:03 <@Dagmar> Oh yes it does
21:04 <@sdodson> ie: local government provides last mile copper/fiber. Comcast, TimeWarner etc buy access to that from them and sell you internet service.
21:04 <@Dagmar> In all of those cases there's a _massive_ infrastructure cost that has to be dealt with before anything approaching a break-even point can be met
21:04 <@polerin> sdodson: what happens if someone wants to run their own fiber?
21:04 <@sdodson> polerin: why would you?
21:04 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: to be quiet honest... the coffee sucked... and I was really wanting a beer, but now that playmakers is gone...
21:04 < dochench> sdodson: so you don't have to lease from them
21:05 <@polerin> because you think you can get away from the uhm.. government monopoly?
21:05 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: Ya. Ended up running around nash square at 1am in the rain :(
21:05 <@polerin> dochench: anyway, you didn't answer my quesiton
21:05 <@sdodson> dochench: then the entire model falls apart.
21:06 < dochench> polerin: i didn't see it, what was it?
21:06 <@polerin> the market itself will keep a company from getting so large that it can quash competition?
21:06 < dochench> sdodson?
21:06 <+MxZBot> sdodson is bleh
21:06 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: The coffee is sub par, but I feel obligated to buy a drink since we basically take over the place.
21:06 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: naked?
21:07 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: no, Berkeley CAfe closed earlier than we thought and they said they couldn't get a cab so we ran to The Borough
21:07 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: that's why I bought some... and I'm not a big coffee person
21:08 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: Any interesting conversation after I left?
21:08 < dochench> polerin: i dunno.. i think it would keep em in check anyways.. there is always an underdog.. say this tiny little company grows up from nowhere into a monopoly, they are doing something right. that's why they became so big. they screw stuff up, people will turn to competion or create competition.
21:08 <@polerin> ok
21:08 <@polerin> so
21:08 <@sdodson> like
21:08 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: yeah.. I'd say that you missed the good parts :)
21:08 <@polerin> Lets take an example
21:08 <@polerin> say you've got comcast, and no price regulation no anything like that
21:09 <@Dagmar> dochench: Again, your proposition contains epic levels of fail
21:09 <@sdodson> M0j0-j0j0: oh, what happened?
21:09 <@polerin> a small cable firm decides to start up in nashville
21:09 < dochench> dag, i'm ok with that at the moment
21:09 <@Dagmar> Any pre-existing monopoly will have spare resources to operate at a loss in order to make competition unprofitable indefinitely.
21:09 <@polerin> they start growing their plant
21:09 <@polerin> and comcast responds to dropping their services to .50 a month to any home that can hook up to the new service
21:10 <@polerin> keep in mind here, comcast can afford to do it because of their size
21:10 <@polerin> it'd hurt, but not too much
21:10 <@Dagmar> ...and if that doesn't work, the moment said company goes public, the competition can just buy them out.  Rejection of the buyout offer will result in immediate visits from lawyers using phrases like "stockholder interests".
21:10 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: just talking about school and preparation for the real world in respect to sports
21:10 <@polerin> how would the new company get off the ground unless it was backed by an entity of signifigant size that is willing to put enough money into it
21:11 < M0j0-j0j0> and pirate radio
21:11 < M0j0-j0j0> and news groups
21:11 < dochench> please, you guys want to poke holes in my hypotheticals, but say comcast would offer .50 service. they are in the business to MAKE money. only the gov't operates at a loss, befcause they can just raise taxes.
21:11 <@polerin> dochench: who said anything about taking a loss
21:11 < dochench> .50 comcast service is a LOSS.
21:11 <@polerin> only for customers that can hook up to the new service as well
21:11 <@Dagmar> dochench: Dude, Microsoft and Sony are _both_ offering their premier gaming consoles at a steep loss, just to make it harder for their competitors
21:12 < dochench> they have infrastructure to support. they don't own it all.
21:12 <@Dagmar> *Only* companies that size can afford to pull shit like that
21:12 < dochench> dag, is it working?
21:12 <@polerin> which given the speed that plant grows, is not going to be many
21:12 <@Dagmar> Do you see anyone other than Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft operating in that space?
21:12 <@Dagmar> NO>
21:12 <@polerin> dochench: what is more expensive.  loosing 3000 customers, or giving them .50 cent service for 10 months?
21:12 < dochench> i'd guess .50
21:13 <@polerin> after that 10 months, the compeditor runs out of funds
21:13 <@Dagmar> It takes way more htan the usual VC money to fight something like Comcast
21:13 <@polerin> becuase nobody would buy their $30 service when they can have .50 cent service
21:13 <@Dagmar> We're talking not in millions of dollars, not even tens of millions, but _hundreds_ of millions
21:13 <@sdodson> Dagmar: That's because they don't make their money on the hardware.
21:14 < dochench> they wouldn't have .50 service. this is why the argument is silly.
21:14 <@polerin> dochench: yeah they would
21:14 <@polerin> sec
21:14 <@polerin> can't remeber the term for it
21:14 < dochench> no they wouldn't. and the price drops on consoles are so they can make it up in the game sales.
21:14 <@sdodson> dochench: Maybe not $0.50, but they're able to deliver service at a loss long enough to drive off competition.
21:14 <@Dagmar> dochench: No, all they'd really need to do is price their services at a loss enough to be significantly below the new competition.
21:14 <@polerin> but there are plenty of examples of companies offering services at a net loss in order to drive out compeditors
21:14 <@Dagmar> $new_company would then be unable to attact customers, falter, and die
21:15 <@polerin> you're only thinking at a local level
21:15 <@polerin> because that's where the competition is happening
21:15 <@polerin> comcast has much more infostructure that's actually making it money
21:15 <@Dagmar> This would be why the PS3 hasn't killed Sony.
21:16 <@Dagmar> I'm not sure that division is turning a profit, _yet_
21:16 < dochench> comcast is cable, internet, phone.. what else are they doing?
21:16 <@polerin> so it's not like all the sudden the company is operating in the red to offer .50 cent service to 3000 people
21:16 <@polerin> video production
21:16 <@Dagmar> They sure as hell failed in every way possible for the first three quarters.
21:16 <@polerin> but now you're dodging
21:16 <@Dagmar> No one who had a release day title even managed to break even for two
21:16 < dochench> the lines they use for the phone are denver based. qwest most likely. they have costs there.
21:16 <@polerin> heh
21:17 <@polerin> no, the phone lines they use are DOCSIS
21:17 <@polerin> in most areas
21:17 <@polerin> same path as the cable modems, just with traffic management to ensure delivery
21:17 <@polerin> anyhow, it's not costs we are talking about
21:17 <@polerin> when comcast has 5,000,000 customers
21:17 < wrench> polerin: so what's your take on the government's role in this area? Who will decide what is "fair" and what is a monopoly that must be busted up?
21:17 < dochench> they don't own all this infrastucture they use. they have costs. they lose money, it isn't good. it affects stock price. it puts them out of business.. companie can't do that shit forever. if something is cheap. there is a reason. they are planning on making money of you somehow.
21:18 <@polerin> it doesn't hurt them to operate at a loss for 3,000 of them to blow out competition
21:18 <@Dagmar> They don't have to do it forever.
21:18 < dochench> polerin: it goes out POTS somewhere.
21:18 <@polerin> wrench: actually, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist, I don't think there should be a government at all
21:18 <@Dagmar> ...and you keep ignoring that.
21:18 <@Dagmar> They only have to do it until their new competition is out of mone y.
21:18 < dochench> dagmar, so what it really boils down to is how long cn a little guy last?
21:18 < wrench> polerin: wan't expecting that one
21:18 <@Dagmar> dochench: Hence, why monopolies are bad.
21:19 < dochench> dag, so if the little guy has a sound business model that keeps him afloat?
21:19 <@polerin> wrench: there shouldn't be a market either
21:19 < wrench> polerin: then what fills that void?
21:19 <@Dagmar> It doesn't matter how great your product is if it's close enough to be comparable to the competition.
21:19 <@polerin> dochench: a sound buisness model doesn't do jack shit if you don't have customers
21:19 <@sdodson> Most monopolies exist because no one else steps up to drive innovation.
21:19 <@polerin> wrench: google "an anarchist faq"
21:19 <@polerin> look for infoshop
21:19 <@polerin> don't have time tonight :)
21:19 < wrench> polerin: no seriously
21:19 <@Dagmar> ...because all the competing monopoly has to do is drop their prices to be proportionally cheaper, crappy or not, and then it becomes a war of attrition
21:20 <@polerin> an organization of the workers
21:20 <@polerin> short answer
21:20 <@polerin> long answer takes way more than that
21:20 < wrench> another time maybe...
21:20 <@Dagmar> You might as well be assering that a walled city under siege should "merely" have to dig a fifteen mile long tunnel to get around it
21:20 < dochench> i disagree. some people will use a service for factors other than price.
21:20 <@polerin> wrench: or you could go do your own research, I'm not trying to promote anything
21:20 <@Dagmar> Everyone inside will have LONG since starved to death
21:21 < wrench> I'm familiar with anarchism...just didn't think you were serious at first
21:21 <@polerin> dochench: like what?
21:21 <@polerin> dochench: I meen it's obvious that people are so flooding away from comcast
21:21 <@polerin> wrench: I'm serious.
21:21 <@polerin> I don't talk about it in here much because the channel is populated by libertarians
21:22 <@Dagmar> About the only damn reason DirecTV and DishNetwork exist is that they didnt' ave to run wires
21:22 <@polerin> which would leave the people at the mercy of the allmighty dollar
21:22 -!- dmcmorris_esi [n=dmcmorri@dmcmorris.net] has left #se2600 []
21:23 < dochench> quality? brand affiliation? convenience?
21:23 <@sdodson> oh, are going full circle here? can we bring back in the In God We Trust arguments?
21:24 <@Dagmar> Put your money where your mouth is, Hench
21:24 <@sdodson> If price were the only thing then Oracle would have destroyed Red Hat simply by undercutting them.
21:24 <@Dagmar> Write up a business plan for competing with Comcast
21:24 < dochench> i do. i have clearwire and comcast. i use teliax and broadvoice.
21:24 < dochench> ah, that i can't do. heh
21:24 < dochench> fios would move me away
21:25 <@polerin> ah
21:25 <@Dagmar> Note that since FIOS involves the usual insanely heavy deployment costs, the only places they're operating are in high-population-density areas
21:25 <@polerin> dochench:
21:25 <@polerin> dochench: it's called "Dumping
21:25 < dochench> internet service is about speed for me. i have clearwire for when comcast screws up, or i want to hit the net from a different point (ip or physical)
21:26 < dochench> dag, yes, because it's about making money. otherwise they'd just operate at a loss he in nashville for a while to clear comcast out.
21:26 <@polerin> dochench: I think you are in a 1% or lower minority
21:26 < M0j0-j0j0> sdodson: he's the reason most people get screwed out of money in the first place..
21:27 <@polerin> I would bet that even in here, you'll find very few people with multiple ISP's
21:27 <@polerin> dochench: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-competitive_practices
21:27 <@polerin> tell me how your market would prevent those things?
21:28 < M0j0-j0j0> smitting
21:28 < dochench> tell me how the gov't prevents them now? they don't.
21:28 <@polerin> actually
21:28 <@polerin> there are laws on the book for most of those
21:28 < dochench> laws and reality are two different things
21:28  * polerin headdesks
21:28 <@Dagmar> polerin: He's already admitted his argument is broken
21:28 <@polerin> dochench: in other words yours wouldn't, so you have to point out the fact that the current system doesn't do what it says it does
21:29 < dochench> i'm just shocked that you guys are wanting more govt to FIX things.
21:29 <@polerin> dochench: ... ok cool.  I can agree with that.  Only problem is I'm not trying to convert you, just questioning your system
21:29 <@sdodson> The government sure seems ineffective in preventing cable tv monopolies.
21:29 <@polerin> actually, if you noted my response earlier, I don't think there should be a government at all, or a market
21:30 < dochench> polerin: as i said earlier, yes there are flaws. but really, i am a big believer in voting with the dollar.
21:30 <@polerin> sdodson: tell me about it.  It's not doing any better on at&t either
21:30 <@polerin> dochench: I would really suggest you look back at the history of J.P. Morgan, and the other oldschool monopolists
21:30 <@polerin> look back at the history before the unions stood up to them
21:31 <@polerin> (oh by the way, do you think people hsould be able to organize?)
21:31 < dochench> they aren't oldschool.. it is still today, it runs the world. that's why i was talking about superclass earlier.
21:31 <@polerin> they are oldschool, simply because the things they did back then were why the laws were written
21:31 <@polerin> and you can't be as open about it now
21:31 <@polerin> I'm not arguing that the corperations don't rule the world, hell, I've made the argument myself
21:32 <@polerin> I'm saying that what you propose would not do anything to fix it
21:32 <@polerin> and that it would strip the few protections that we DO have
21:32 < dochench> the corporations don't run the world. they people that run the corporations do.
21:32 < dochench> damn.. i'm getting to where i can type anymore.
21:32 < dochench> can't
21:32 <@polerin> so what you suggest won't fix the problems I mentioned correct?
21:33 <@polerin> or you haven't thought about it?
21:33 < dochench> i dunno. it might, but it sure won't hurt.
21:33 <@polerin> ...
21:33 <@polerin> why would it not hurt?
21:34 < dochench> why would people spending their money using there brains not hurt, and gov't babysitting us all will? umm, cause i buy what i like. when the companies i buy things from make money, they prosper. they (hopefully) make and do more things i ilke.
21:34 < dochench> their
21:34 <@polerin> when you are stripping all the legal protections that were put in place exactly to stop what I mentioned?
21:34 < dochench> shit.. i've gotta smoke and get some coffee so i can type correctly. heh :)
21:35 <@polerin> that doesn't address dumping, using suppliers to connect out,
21:35 <@polerin> etc
21:35 <@Dagmar> dochench: They can always go back to trying monopoly/antitrust cases
21:35 <@polerin> err to keep competition out
21:35 < dochench> there aren't protections. they are a facade and some ppl think they are protected.
21:35 <@Dagmar> ...since that worked so well with Microsoft and AT&T.
21:35 <@polerin> dochench: yes, and the 40 hour work week is a myth.  we know
21:35 <@polerin> dochench: you know why it's a myth?  becuase the companies have eroded the protections
21:36 <@polerin> you think they would pay people overtime if they weren't forced too?
21:36 <@polerin> that all labor laws are bs?
21:36 < dochench> no, a 30 hour week is optimal. henry ford.
21:36 < dochench> i think people wouldn't work the overtime if they had a backbone.
21:36 <@polerin> at which point they get fired
21:36 <@polerin> and blackballed
21:37 < dochench> and find another minimum wage job to go to.
21:37 <@polerin> uhm
21:37 <@polerin> blacklisted sorry
21:37 <@polerin> look at union history
21:37  * dochench sighs
21:37 <@polerin> how difficult it was to get a decent work week before labor laws
21:37 <@sdodson> I love internet arguments. It's rare that arguments in real life people are so willing to assume they're always smarter than the other person.
21:38 <@polerin> sdodson: of course I'm smarter :)
21:38 <@polerin> sdodson: actually I prefer these arguments in real life, I have an easier time holding people to task for individual questions :)
21:41 < dochench> polerin: so how do you propose to fix things?
21:42 <@polerin> in my ideal world, or working with the reality that not enough people agree with me to make it happen yet
21:42 <@sdodson> Having a solution is not a prerequisite for long drawn out arguments, either.
21:42 <@polerin> ?
21:42 <@polerin> sdodson: actually this is the first time he's asked
21:42 < dochench> something grounded in reality.
21:42 <@polerin> sdodson: and he only asked when he ran out of ability to counter my question
21:43 <@polerin> well, my ideals are grounded in reality, just not something that we can get to right this second :P
21:43 < dochench> actually i went and got a smoke and some coffee... i realize that you won't see the light, so i'm asking what light you see that's brighter.
21:44 <@polerin> dochench: "21:33 < dochench> i dunno. it might, but it sure won't hurt."
21:44 < dochench> and?
21:44 <@polerin> you didn't have an answer for my most basic questions
21:44 < dochench> i said i don't have it all summed up, but it is better than gov't being my nanny
21:45 <@polerin> dochench: it's not your nanny.  It's the corperations nanny
21:45 <@polerin> how I would fix it?
21:45 <@polerin> you really want to know?
21:45 <@polerin> get rid of the idea of corperate personhood
21:45 <@polerin> corperations are not people, nor should they have any of the rights of people
21:45 <@polerin> fund and empower the agencies that are intended to prosecute monopolistic actions
21:46 < dochench> i can agree with that until line 5
21:46 <@polerin> roll back tax cuts on the rich, eliminate taxes on the poor
21:46 < dochench> gov'ts aren't people either
21:46 <@polerin> the government can't sue for defamation.
21:46 <@polerin> anyway
21:46 < dochench> why? because they're poor they shouldn't pay their share?
21:46 <@polerin> (actually,... can it?  .. I don't think it can)
21:47 <@polerin> dochench: actually they already DO pay their share
21:47 < M0j0-j0j0> The Poor?
21:47 < dochench> no, they don't. it is a percentage based on income
21:47 <@polerin> and as to why they shouldn't have taxes, it's because when you elimate taxes on the poor, and increase education about money management, you allow people to move OUT of the lower class and into tax paying brackets
21:47 < dochench> there should be a flat percentage everyone pays... or a flat consumption tax.
21:48 <@polerin> dochench: that would be fine if the rich didn't actually hold 99% of the nations wealth
21:48 < dochench> taxes don't keep people poor, a lack of adaquate income or excessive outflows keep ppl ppor
21:49 <@polerin> dochench: no but they don't help either
21:49 < dochench> they don't. it IS a large percentage, but it isn't 99.. they also pay the majority of taxes.
21:50 <@polerin> I don't have time to dig for stats really
21:51 <@polerin> (I *need* to finish this damn access control engine)
21:51 <@polerin> but anyway, regardless of the exact numbers
21:51 <@polerin> the rich have more, and as you said, are less than inclined to give it back
21:52 <@polerin> which in the long run ends up with a large gap between the rich and the poor
21:52 <@polerin> with a very small middle class
21:53 <@polerin> my aim is to improve social mobility.  The rich don't really need it.. they already "made it"
21:53 < dochench> hah!
21:53 <@polerin> the poor on the other hand have not.
21:53  * polerin waits for the point that usually goes with a 'hah!'
21:54 < dochench> no, my hah was on the absurdity of line 7
21:54 <@polerin> so we should be protecting the rich?
21:54 < dochench> no, the individual
21:55 <@Dagmar> Clearly the rich are doing just fine for themselves
21:55 <@polerin> from whom?
21:55 <@polerin> Dagmar: my point exactly :P
21:55 <@polerin> the rich don't need government protection of their money
21:55 <@polerin> or from the greedy dirty little fingers of the poor
21:55 < dochench> they are rich. great for them.. hey rich man who busted ass, cheated, and lied, and stole. you worked really hard for this shit you have, we're going to take it and give it to this worthless bum, cause you don't need it, you've made it.
21:55 <@Dagmar> Wow this movie on SciFi is complete and utter shit
21:56 <@polerin> busted ass.  heh
21:56 <@polerin> so the poor don't bust ass right?
21:56 < dochench> yeah, just not in the right way apparently, or they'd be rich
21:56 <@polerin> either that, or they aren't getting paied proportionatly
21:57 < dochench> maybe both
21:57 <@polerin> or can't get jobs that pay that much (those jobs aren't all that easy to come by in the upper areas)
21:57 <@polerin> we have fundimentaly differnt goals
21:57 <@Dagmar> Rather likely both
21:57 <@polerin> Mine is to make it so that each individual has as much of a chance as possible to make it
21:57 <@Dagmar> Especially since one of the worst examples is WalMar
21:57 <@Dagmar> t
21:57 < dochench> jobs.. see that is working for someone else. living off someone else.. employement is a relatively new thing on the social scene.
21:58 <@polerin> no it's not
21:58 <@Dagmar> The CEO makes more money than ALL the store employees nationwide combined.
21:58 < dochench> working for someone else is
21:58 <@polerin> no it's not
21:58 < dochench> yes it is
21:58 <@polerin> look back at fudalism
21:58 <@Dagmar> It can definitely be said he makes more money off them than they do off WalMart
21:58 <@polerin> everyone from guardsmen to cooks to any number of people worked for other people
21:58 <@polerin> all the way to the serf's working the land
21:58 <@polerin> don't talk about it being "new"
21:59 <@polerin> because that's complete and utter bs.
21:59 <@polerin> hell, even the bible has a passage or two on it iirc
21:59 <@Dagmar> Hell, we've had slavery longer than we've had currency
21:59 <@polerin> course, i'm no bible expert
21:59 < dochench> the bible has a lot of bullshit in it.
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21:59 < dochench> doesn't mean some of it isn't grounded in reality
21:59 <@polerin> but the fact stays that it still that the concept of employment is new
22:00 <@polerin> err
22:00 <@polerin> isn't new
22:00 < dochench> slavery isn't employment
22:00 <@Dagmar> Sure it is.
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22:00 <@Dagmar> You keep working or they kill you.
22:00 <@polerin> then they feed you.
22:00 <@polerin> a little.
22:00 < dochench> no, it is slavery. employment is something you opt to do.. slavery is do this a get a beat down.
22:00 < dochench> s/this a/this or/
22:00 <@Dagmar> Employment is a thing you can do or you get to figure out how to live in the gutter.
22:00 <@Dagmar> There is no more "free land".
22:00 <@Dagmar> You can't make food from thin air.
22:01 <@polerin> so what about employment where the employer owns all of the major buisnesses in the town
22:01 <@Dagmar> You can't even hunt for it without being charged with poaching or trespassing or both.
22:01 < dochench> get in your wagon, hope that nex train, and move along.
22:01 <@Dagmar> There are no more "next trains".
22:01 <@polerin> and then the company comes after you for debt
22:01 < dochench> dag, not in TN. there ARE places you can do this.
22:01 <@Dagmar> None you can live on.
22:02 <@polerin> dochheh
22:02 <@Dagmar> Not in this continent
22:02 <@polerin> err
22:02 <@polerin> wow, canna type. I'm done for now
22:03 <@polerin> dochench: last question actually
22:03 < dochench> anyways. slavery is not employement. and yes, the majority of people working for a minority is new.
22:03 <@polerin> have you ever studied the history of labor?
22:03 <@polerin> 1800's through today
22:03 <@Dagmar> The only difference between slavery and employment is that you get to choose who your owner is.
22:03 <@Dagmar> Freaking deal with it.
22:04 <@polerin> Dagmar: for right now, because of labor protections :p
22:04 < dochench> dag, i can agree with that. you have a choice.
22:04 <@polerin> Dagmar: strip the labor protections and you get back to debtor prisons :P
22:04 <@Dagmar> dochench: That's not much of a choice.
22:05 < dochench> it is enough. slavery is forced. employment is not.
22:05 <@Dagmar> You need to stop reading whatevr the hell crazy books on economic theory you're reading
22:05 <@Dagmar> They're putting positively dim ideas in your head.
22:05 <@Dagmar> It's reminding me of the comp sci prof I had at MTSU who said "Code as if memory and CPU time were infinite"
22:06 <@Dagmar> dochench: You could opt to be killed by the slave owner just fine.
22:06 <@polerin> you always have a choice
22:06 <@polerin> untill you are dead
22:06 < dochench> lol
22:06 <@polerin> seriously
22:06 <@Dagmar> With employment in this particular world we live in, you can opt to starve to death in the streets or be killed by a teenager looking for kicks.
22:06 <@polerin> you may not have GOOD choices, but you always have choice
22:08 <@polerin> btw, totaly differnt question
22:08 <@polerin> would you have a police force?
22:08 <@polerin> and who pays for it
22:09 < dochench> you are telling me your fix. would you have a police force?
22:09 <@polerin> no, but I wouldn't have capital either
22:09 <@polerin> if you are talking about the "today" fix
22:09 <@polerin> yes
22:09 <@polerin> I aim to make the world a better place for as many people as I can.
22:10 <@polerin> may not be perfect, and I sit on my ass a bit much, but then again, I'm not human
22:10 <@polerin> err
22:10 <@polerin> O_O
22:10 <@Dagmar> Arm everyone, heavily.
22:10 <@Dagmar> Let the gov't subsidize free Kleenex.
22:11 <@polerin> Dagmar: in an anarcho-syndicalistic world? hell yeah.
22:11 <@Dagmar> It might take awhile for the gene pool to restabilize
22:11 <@Dagmar> Although frankly I would rather see reproductive limits
22:11 <@Jagobah> what the fuck is all this shit
22:11 < dochench> too many humans around anyways. not enough resources to go around.
22:11 <@polerin> in a capitalist world?  no way.  the companies would end up buying armies and forming little kingdoms :P
22:11 < dochench> dag, anture will take care of that
22:12 <@Dagmar> dochench: At hte moment, all nature is doing is breeding new slaves as fast as possible.
22:12 <@Dagmar> That's going to have a very bad effect on the gene pool in the long term
22:12 < dochench> there is an upper limit. nah, diversity is good for the gene pool. gives options.
22:13 <@Dagmar> Were not getting diversity.
22:13 <@Dagmar> What we're getting is a surplus of people who can't figure out birth control.
22:13 < dochench> genetically, we are. in mindset, no.
22:13 <@polerin> Dagmar: or think it is evil
22:13 <@polerin> ala Palin
22:14 <@Dagmar> So, probably out best long term solutions is limiting birth rates and subsidizing the crap out of educating the folks who can't manage to keep their shit together.
22:14 <@polerin> dochench: I'm seriously curious about your answer though, would you have police?
22:14 <@Dagmar> If you're broke, a BABY doesn't help.
22:15 <@polerin> Dagmar: I'd like to see better designed welfare
22:15 <@Dagmar> You can get UNbroke a lot easier if someone's putting some effort into teaching you some stuff.
22:15 <@Dagmar> At the moment, ew're not spending shit on education.
22:15 <@polerin> currently we strip benifits basicly as soon as someone gets a job, instead of tapering them off so people can sort of get on their feet
22:15 <@Dagmar> Opheria is teaching a chess club at a public school part time.
22:15 <@polerin> and yes, I agree
22:15 <@Dagmar> One of the kids is 11 years old, and *can't read*.
22:16 <@Dagmar> His mother has no explanation for it, other than he's being home-schooled.
22:16 <@polerin> I'm thinking about starting to go down to the local library
22:16 < dochench> polerin: no, i don't think so... not 100% certain on it tho. it would have to be some type of random elected , report card requirement thing if i did. and with police, you have to have jails and prisons, courts, judges, etc..
22:16 <@polerin> and offering my assistance to the adult literacy program
22:16 <@Jagobah> dagmar do you really think that broke people are broke because they're just not "finding" the information to help them build wealth?
22:16 <@Jagobah> If that's what you're saying, I don't agree with that
22:16 <@polerin> dochench: so, question... who enforces contracts in your world?
22:16 <@polerin> if there is no police
22:16 <@Dagmar> Jagobah: I think it's a combination of that and all the rich people so ready and willing to sell them bad bills of goods about the road _to_ wealth.
22:16 < dochench> i'm for home schooling if you fucking do it.. if you plop a kid in front of the tv, and tell him jesus loves him and everything will be ok when he's dead, that isn't home schooling.
22:17 <@Dagmar> Look where these fucking "TitleMax" places spring up and what their profit margins are.
22:17 <@polerin> pure fucking usery
22:17 <@Jagobah> Those are just companies that are ripping off the poor
22:17 <@polerin> same with payday loans
22:17 < dochench> the large banks fund them.
22:17 <@Dagmar> Teach these people how to take care of their shit.
22:17 <@Jagobah> And don't understand the fees associated with places like that just further drive you into poverty
22:17 <@Dagmar> dochench: Acutally the large banks don't HAVE to fund them
22:18 <@polerin> Jagobah: or don't understand till too late
22:18 <@Dagmar> The large banks actually WISH they could touch those markets because they make ludicrous amounts of money per capitall expended
22:18 <@polerin> those places are nasty.
22:18 <@Dagmar> >700% returns
22:18 <@Jagobah> But if a poor person is in that situation, and they don't want to be in that situation, they'll figure out a way to get out of that
22:18 <@Dagmar> ...because the people who go to them haven't enough understanding of simple economics to KNOW they're being robbed blind.
22:18 <@Jagobah> If they're not willing to do the work to figure that out, they're not diligent enough to act on the advice taught to them by your education
22:18 <@Dagmar> Jagobah: THat's like saying if a dog wants out of a cage bad enough he'll figure out how to pick the combination lock.
22:19 < dochench> cashcall with gary coleman.. heheheh. 99.25% apr
22:19 <@Jagobah> Except it's nothing like that at all
22:19 <@Dagmar> Dude, go into one of those places.
22:19 <@Jagobah> Picking a lock requires technical skill and finesse; getting out of poverty involves making switches to your behavior
22:19 < dochench> people can learn on their own.. it is the mindset that prevents it.
22:19 <@Dagmar> Watch how quick they are to try to avoid you reading any fine print, or even mentioning more than the coarsest of figures.
22:20 <@polerin> actually you want to know what I'd really really love to do?
22:20 <@Jagobah> Yeah, they're con artists
22:20 < dochench> gotta agree with jagobah on that.. they know they are being robbed blind, just can figure out any other options.
22:20 <@polerin> make advertising outside of your store illegal
22:20 < dochench> can't
22:20 <@Dagmar> Yeah, with some *education* they could figure out some other options.
22:20 <@polerin> because marketing actually does far more damage to our culture than anything else :P
22:20 <@Dagmar> Maybe come up with a plan that involves worrying about more than just "how to pay the bills due on Friday"
22:20 <@Jagobah> If you know they're con artists and ripoffs, you won't play
22:20 < dochench> no, start with a behavior change. like don't fucking go in there.
22:21 <@Jagobah> Dagmar:  I'd recommend you watch a documentary called "In Debt We Trust."  It has all the information you're talking about, as well as tons of testimony
22:21 <@Dagmar> Jagobah: Actually, you WILL pay because they're telling you that as long as you play, your life will be better, and EVERYONE's saying the same shit
22:21  * polerin loves to listen to middle class people arguing about what it's like to be poor :)
22:21 <@polerin> (not that I know what it's like, but I haven't said I do)
22:21 <@Dagmar> You can make a sucker out of just about *anyone* if they're desperate enough.
22:22 <@Dagmar> polerin: FYi, I've genuinely been "poor as fuck" more than once
22:22 <@Jagobah> Well personally, I won't play because I'm not irresponsible with my finances
22:22 <@polerin> Dagmar: Just sayin :)
22:22 <@polerin> not an attack on people individually
22:22 <@Jagobah> If you know people that aren't as responsible, you can help them out yourself, but they still have to be willing to be helped
22:23 <@Jagobah> I do agree that public awareness needs to be increased
22:23 <@Dagmar> "public awareness" == education, yo.
22:23 <@polerin> I generally find it along the lines of white people arguing about racism, men talking about what' is and isn't sexist, and straight people telling me that homophobia doesn't exist any more
22:23 <@Jagobah> You can graduate from high school being taught tons of useless shit like how many bird species exist
22:23 <@Jagobah> but not know how to balance a checkbook
22:23 <@Dagmar> The education we're giving out now amounts to just enough to make you qualified to say "Do you want fries with that"
22:23 < dochench> you are on irc. you aren't poor in the truest sense of the word, unless you happen to be chatting from the public library with gnats swarming around you.
22:23 <@polerin> dochench: I didn't say I was poor
22:23 <@polerin> if you note that
22:24 <@Jagobah> well
22:24 <@Jagobah> "poor" is a mindset
22:24 <@polerin> I come from a middle class background, and i'm pretty solidly in the middle of the middle
22:24 <@Jagobah> having no money is "broke"
22:24 <@polerin> bullshit
22:24 <@polerin> poor is two people making minimum wage with one child
22:25 < dochench> minimum wage is a joke.. i'd have a hard time figuring out how to get ahead from that point.
22:25 <@Jagobah> Okay, two people, married, with a child, earning minimum wage....  if they have any skills worth marketing, they can easily get a job that pays more than minimum wage
22:25 <@Dagmar> ...and good luck finding the free time to do anything about it
22:26 <@polerin> dochench: and yet you're wanting to strip minimium wage entirely?
22:26 <@polerin> dochench: nice.
22:26 <@Jagobah> Honestly, you can get more than min. wage doing ANYTHING
22:26 <@Dagmar> Jagobah: And if they *don't* have any skillls?
22:26 < dochench> pol: when did i say that socialist?
22:26 <@polerin> uhm
22:26 <@Jagobah> I'm assuming they graduated high school
22:26 <@Dagmar> THat doesn't exactly qualify as "skills" man.
22:26 <@Jagobah> They must have learned to do something useful then
22:26 <@polerin> you said government shouldn't do anything except for build roads
22:26 <@Jagobah> Whether they can type 50wpm or participated in school activities
22:26 < dochench> i didn't graduate high school and i make handily more than min wage.
22:26 <@Dagmar> Nope.  You can get through public school not having learned a damn thing that's useful.
22:26 <@polerin> who do you think enforces minimum wage?
22:27 <@Dagmar> dochench: You happened to actually have the resources and drive and *intelligence* necessary to teach *yourself* things
22:27 <@Jagobah> Whatever it is, if they can present themselves well, they can do it
22:27 <@Dagmar> Pretend you're stoned as hell all the time
22:27 < dochench> pol: high salaries will still be around. you'll just fight it out for them
22:27 <@Jagobah> And if they don't have skills, there's always places to learn them
22:27 <@Dagmar> That's about how most of the people with an IQ of 95-100 are.
22:27 <@polerin> not to mention the avalibility of "skill" based jobs is decreasing
22:28 <@Jagobah> I mean, you gotta be brain dead to live on this earth and NOT want to do something
22:28 <@polerin> dochench: I make more than minimum righ tnow
22:28 <@Dagmar> Jagobah: Nope.
22:28 <@polerin> dochench: but having "higher wage jobs" around doesn't mean that most people would be able to get them
22:28 <@Dagmar> Get people in an area poor enough, and their goals become things like "make it a week without a bill collector calling"
22:28 < dochench> pol: salaries are a market. if an employer wants the best or quality, they pay more than the competition, to attact those ppl.
22:28 < dochench> attract
22:28 <@polerin> dochench: which means by default they be making less.  and for many laborers, that would meen less than minimum wage
22:29 < dochench> no, it doesn't
22:29 <@Dagmar> There's lots of people being paid less than minimum wage right now.
22:29 <@polerin> dochench: if labor is a market, why is minimum wage still there for so many jobs?
22:29 <@polerin> you honestly think those jobs would be making more if there were no minimum?
22:29 < dochench> because a machine could do what they do.
22:29 <@polerin> heh
22:29 <@Dagmar> dochench: But not as cheaply
22:30 < dochench> it is cheaper to have a person do it.
22:30 <@Jagobah> If there's a person that hasn't graduated from high school, makes minimum wage, has no marketable skills but yet he still wants to learn to do all those things to build some wealth, I'd tell him to first go to a library or bookstore and get some reading done
22:30 <@Dagmar> If a machine breaks, you have to repair it,, or insure it so the repairs are paid for.
22:30 <@polerin> and it would be cheaper still to have a person do it if there were no minimum wage
22:30 <@Dagmar> If an illegal immigrant breaks, you just go pick up a new one
22:30 <@Jagobah> If he doesn't want to learn to do anything, that's his problem that he'll learn to recognize when it gets to be too late
22:30 < dochench> human machinery
22:30 -!- someninjamaster [n=jamesric@c-68-53-159-99.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600
22:30 <@polerin> Jagobah: what about kids who don't  graduate because their families can't afford to keep them in school?
22:31 <@polerin> and they go to work?
22:31 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o someninjamaster] by ChanServ
22:31 <@polerin> when do they have a chance to learn?
22:31 <@Dagmar> People don't hire illegal aliens because they like to risk being thrown in jail
22:31 <@Jagobah> Are you talking about college?
22:31 <@Dagmar> They do it because it's cheaper than machinery
22:31 <@polerin> no
22:31 <@polerin> I'm talking about the idea of not having a minimum wage and stripping labor laws
22:31 <@polerin> which so many people in here think is so great for some reason.
22:32 <@Jagobah> What the hell would that accomplish
22:32 <@polerin> ask dochench
22:32 <@polerin> it would improve companies abilties to compete apparently
22:32 <@polerin> and make everyone more free.
22:34 <@Jagobah> I'm not a big expert on labor unions, but from what I understand, if the employer doesn't put in reasonable precautions to reduce working hazards and other such management tasks, the employees will reject the work and go on strike, costing the company their production
22:34 <@polerin> anyway I really need to get this code done, so I'm going to bow out at this point :P
22:34 <@polerin> Jagobah: thats assuming that unions exist
22:34 < dochench> dochench: and yet you're wanting to strip minimium wage entirely? pol: when did i say that socialist?
22:34 <@polerin> dochench: you said that government should do nothing other than build roads
22:34 <@polerin> correct?
22:34 <+MxZBot> correct is a relitive term
22:35 <@polerin> heh
22:35 < dochench> pol: it was a generalization.
22:35 <@Dagmar> \...and assuming there's not a supply of OTHER people who are desperate enough to go ahead and work in the fireworks factory that also makes strike-anywhere matches
22:35 <@polerin> and that it should not interfere in the free market?
22:35 <@polerin> becasue every time that I've brought up labor laws, you've made no indication you support them whatsoever
22:36 <@polerin> and given your generalization and arguments with lots of other libertarians, labor laws are the first thing they want to get rid of
22:36 < dochench> so a lack of support is the same as "get rid of all that bullshit"?
22:36 <@polerin> so you do support labor laws?
22:37 < dochench> it would really depend on what you're specifically talking about. no i don't support "labor laws" anymore than i support "human rights" or "democratic/republican parties"
22:38 <@Dagmar> Can I torture you?
22:38 <@Dagmar> It will be strictly a scientific endeavor, I assure you.
22:38 <@polerin> do you support the idea that the government should interfere in the workings of the free market by ensuring the rights of the workers?
22:38  * Dagmar rubs his hands together.
22:38 < dochench> :D
22:38 < dochench> how will they be interfering?
22:38 < dochench> and what are the "rights"?
22:39 <@Dagmar> "The usual"
22:39 < dochench> then no
22:39 <@Dagmar> The stuff labor unions have to resort to strong-arm tactics for.
22:39 <@polerin> safe working environment, reasonable pay, freedom from unusual demands.
22:39 <@Dagmar> i.e., "fair and equitable wages"
22:40 <@polerin> those are the basic three, but thats a good start
22:40 <@Dagmar> Companies do not eat, they do not sleep, and they can not die of old age.  They also have no problems profiting greatly at the expense of the people who work for them.
22:40 <@Dagmar> Frankly, it's for those reasons I think something needs to be done about "the corporate entity"
22:40 <@scort> http://studioarts-llc.com/
22:41 < dochench> no working in an acid bath for 12 hours a day, i can agree with. i guy that scraps shit off stuff getting to carry around can of air freshener no. fair and equitable wages, depends on "fair" and "equitable". i'm for a living wage, that means you won't starve, and you can afford shelter, but that would also entail telling people how to spend their money and not to use payday lenders.
22:41 <@Dagmar> Giving corporations the rights of individuals without them having the same basic needs as individuals kind of gives them an advantage over individuals by default
22:41 < M0j0-j0j0> so... who has control over se2600.org?
22:41 < dochench> a corp
22:41 <@polerin> dochench: we aren't talking about a level
22:42 <@polerin> dochench: theres any number of details to quibble about in there
22:42 <@polerin> so we'll go with "no working in an acid bath" or around dangerous machinery that has been desined with no thought as to safe use
22:42 < M0j0-j0j0> well, then can the corp update it
22:43 <@polerin> dochench: and living wage.. you meen up above the current minimum?
22:43 <@polerin> that's a MAJOR interference with the market
22:43 < dochench> dangerous machinery i for working around. it is a risk. if enough ppl die at those jobs, they start to pay more because there is a risk.
22:43 <@Dagmar> No they don't.
22:43 < dochench> pol: yes, min wage needs to be higher.
22:43 <@Dagmar> They only begin paying more when people STOP SHOWING UP.
22:43 <@polerin> so the government does have a role in regulating buisness
22:44 <@polerin> how does the government enforce this?
22:44 <@Dagmar> If soeone's losing fingers and it doesn't affect the profit margin, as far as a company is concerned, those fingers are free.
22:44 <@Dagmar> This is why DuPont was so super-super-up on safety
22:44 <@polerin> *snerk*
22:45 <@Dagmar> They figured out there were two ends of the spectrum that were most profitable.
22:45 < dochench> dag: it does affect the profit margin.. no fingers aren't free.. it slows production, replacements and training take time and money. the new guy fucks things up..
22:45 <@Dagmar> The "free fingers" end of the spectrum, and the "no one gets hurt at all" end.
22:45 <@Dagmar> Health insurance is cheap for accidents when there's only two a year out of 1,000 employees
22:45 <@Dagmar> Actually, more people than that
22:45 <@polerin> dochench: again, look at history. the people working arround the dangerous machinery tended to not get much training, and not be paid well
22:45 <@Dagmar> In between those two ranges, health insurance is hella expensive
22:46 <@Dagmar> ...and down at the "free fingers" end, well, clearly there's no health insurance.
22:46 <@Dagmar> polerin: They also tended to be disposable children and orphans.
22:46 <@Dagmar> Lots of free fingers to be had there.
22:46 <@polerin> Dagmar: dood.. I totaly need to make up some "I support free fingers!" shirts and hand them out at libertarian and ron paul meetings
22:47 <@someninjamaster> company health insurance is hella expensive
22:47 < dochench> human life is expendable. there is a price. but that is what it comes down to. the price. path of least resistance. if it is cheaper to slaughter your workers, it'll happen but people will stop showing up unless the reward matches the risk. if it is cheaper to invest in safety controls because salarys keep going up, then safety controls it will be.
22:47 <@someninjamaster> my company has 30 employees and pays 10,000 in health
22:48 <@polerin> dochench: or unless there are no other easy choices
22:48 <@polerin> again
22:48 <@polerin> look at history
22:48 <@Dagmar> polerin: lol
22:48 <@polerin> even today mineing is dangerous.  historically before the unions and labor laws, it was dangerous AND underpaid
22:49 <@someninjamaster> now its farly high pay
22:50 < dochench> the unions are jokes, they are money pits now. the union is not out for your best interest. the union is out for the unions best interest. they are not the original concept.
22:50 <@polerin> well, I can agree they arent what I wish them to be
22:50 <@polerin> but the rest of that isn't really all that true
22:50 <@polerin> you just repeated what someone else told you
22:51 < dochench> plz, try working somewhere teamsters work without being a teamster
22:51 <@polerin> what are you trying to prove?
22:51 < dochench> i think i might have some years on you polerin
22:51 <@polerin> that the teamsters do good by their members?
22:51 <@polerin> duh?
22:51 < dochench> no, that it is a money sink
22:52 <@polerin> what do you mean then?
22:52 <@polerin> What about working in a teamster shop without being a teamster are you talking about
22:52  * dochench talks to the wall some more
22:52 <@polerin> because that's rather vauge
22:52 <@polerin> that's like saying
22:52 <@Dagmar> polerin: Hell, I was under the impression that you _coulnd't_ work there without being in
22:52 <@polerin> "go eat at a curry shop without being indian"
22:52 < dochench> you don't get to work. it is the same situtation reversed. you pay to work.
22:52 <@polerin> Dagmar: depends on the state
22:53 <@polerin> dochench: ^^see above
22:53 < dochench> dag: not ture
22:53 < dochench> true
22:53 <@polerin> that's what "right to work" is about
22:53 <@Dagmar> God knows if I were to pick up a screwdriver and retighten a door hinge here, I would be risking the machine shop filing a complaint against me for taking the food out of their babies mouths
22:53 <@polerin> tennessee is a right to work.  you can work at a shop without being a union member
22:53 <@polerin> so try again dochench
22:54 <@Dagmar> I'm not kidding about that either
22:54 <@Dagmar> It's happened.
22:54 < dochench> polerin: once again, there is law and reality. you'll find your tires flattened. windows broken.. noone knows what happened.
22:54 < dochench> until you join up and then things magically stop happening
22:54 <@Dagmar> Not to me because I don't go around letting people see me fix minor things, because then they'll call me instead of the machine shop
22:55 <@Dagmar> dochench: Considering how well said people tend to do things around here, the odds are pretty high that anything done to me would be something I'd catch, and I'd hate to have to explain how that guy got his arm twisted "all the way behind" there
22:55 < dochench> you can "try" to work at a union shop without being a member
22:56 < dochench> dag: you wouldn't work there long
22:56 <@Dagmar> Oh I know I'd probably get fired for seriously disfiguring someone on campus
22:56 <@Dagmar> ...but I don't fuck around when it comes to protecting my person.
22:56 <@Dagmar> Probably the main reason *I'm still alive*
22:57 < dochench> unions are about keeping lazy asses employed
22:57 <@polerin> by the way, didn't mention it earlier, classy use of "I'm older than you so I know more about how the world works"
22:57 <@polerin> bullshit
22:57 <@polerin> unions are about workers banding togeather for more rights
22:57 <@polerin> more power
22:57 <@Dagmar> polerin: Unfortunately he's right
22:57 < dochench> pol: really man, if you think because there is a law, then it just magically happens i can't believe you are older than 12.
22:57 <@Dagmar> Not all the unions are corrupt, but there's plenty that are
22:58 <@Dagmar> It's touch and go as to how well they work in TN
22:58 <@polerin> granted this is an AFL-CIO link,
22:58 <@polerin> but check
22:58 <@polerin> http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/why/uniondifference/uniondiff8.cfm
22:59 <@Dagmar> There were some tire slashings that went on in relation to the attempted union entry into the Nissan plant
22:59 <@polerin> According to a recent survey of 73 independent studies on unions and productivity: .The available evidence points to a positive and statistically significant association between unions and productivity in the U.S. manufacturing and education sectors, of around 10 and 7 percent, respectively.
22:59 <@scort> http://studioarts-llc.com/
22:59 <@Dagmar> Nissan already offered benefits and salaries better than the union would have gotten then, which handily keeps them out
22:59 <@Dagmar> ...but it didn't mean union proponents didn't try every trick they could think of
23:00 <@polerin> Dagmar: dood, I've been threatened with physical violence for mentioning the fact that comcast techs might be better off with a union
23:00 <@Dagmar> I'm not suprised
23:00 <@polerin> so that's there on both sides
23:00 <@polerin> doesn't make it right, but it's not a strike against unions either
23:00 <@Dagmar> ...but there _do_ exist some markets where unions aren't necessary.
23:01 <@polerin> and the unions will have issues penetrating them
23:01  * polerin shrugs**
23:01 <@Dagmar> That travel agency I used to work for was a place where they completely weren't needed
23:01 <@polerin> dochench: i'm curious now, how old are you :)
23:02 <@Dagmar> A union would have been having to pass out LSD to get people to buy into it
23:02 < dochench> a real working union is poverty. when enough ppl get sick of the situation, they unite and burn shit and kill ppl. the ppl they think are responsible.
23:02 < dochench> 34
23:02 <@polerin> you've got 7 years on me
23:03 <@polerin> give or take a few months
23:03 <@Dagmar> dochench: There's actually a lower bounds to that which can be ameliorated through other methods
23:03 < dochench> dag: how so?
23:03 <@polerin> dochench: that's not a union, that's a revolution.
23:03 <@Dagmar> dochench: Just dig around Jello Biafra's stuff when he mentions why the IRA settled down
23:03 <@polerin> not to mention the unions had to go through that too
23:04 < dochench> pol: that was when they worked and were something good
23:04 <@Dagmar> When you're in an area so broke you can even find an abandoned, burned out, windowless warehouse to sleep in without being rousted and you have to eat rats, you'll throw some fucking firebombs for sure
23:04 <@polerin> dochench: heh, That is when they were socialists.
23:04 < dochench> :)
23:04 <@polerin> dochench: but thanks... I miss the wobblies too
23:05 <@Dagmar> ...but when ju-u-u-ust enough money is making it into an area where you can share an apartment and maybe have a beer now and again, people kinda lose their interst in blowing things up becuase they've got something to lose.
23:05 <@polerin> but beyond that, they shouldn't have too
23:05 <@polerin> workers should be able to band togeather for rights
23:05 <@polerin> yeah, sometimes people don't want to smash shit, they just want to make things better
23:06 <@polerin> union membership doesn't mean you hate your job
23:06 <@polerin> if you hate your job, you tend to not stay there long
23:06 < dochench> dag: agreed, just enough to buy ipod and big macs, and everyone is fat and happy.
23:07 < dochench> try buying anything that maight make a difference like land or an education and you'll find it priced out of the range.
23:07 < dochench> so educate yourself
23:07 < dochench> the land thing i'm at a loss on.
23:08 < dochench> maybe a coop or something
23:08 <@polerin> SOCIALIST!
23:08 <@polerin> ;)
23:08 <@polerin> ever heard of "union housing"?
23:08 < dochench> hehehhe, coop vs socialism, is the same argument as employmnt vs slavery.
23:08 <@polerin> no
23:09 <@sdodson> I went to walmart, helped destroy the american economy, came back and this conversation is still going?
23:09 < dochench> unions aren't really a choice. a coop is.
23:09 <@polerin> not all socalism is not slavery
23:09 <@polerin> err
23:09 <@polerin> you know what I meen
23:09 <@polerin> anarchy is a form of socialism
23:09 < dochench> REAL socialism would be a good thing. just one thing will always fuck it up. greed.
23:09 <@sdodson> Anarchy is something you think is cool before you hit puberty.
23:10 <@sdodson> After that you think things through a bit more and you stop thinking about it.
23:10 <@polerin> yes and the only reason I'm still in favor of it is because i'm in my second puberty
23:10 <@polerin> cute
23:10 <@polerin> as I said previously i'm an anarcho-syndicatlist  (hence my support for unions?  :P )
23:11 -!- remoford [n=remoford@c-68-52-72-214.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:11 <@polerin> authoritarian socialism is subject to the same flaws as any other socio-economic structure that involves hierarchy
23:11 <@sdodson> That's a big word. I don't understand what it means.
23:11 <@polerin> go look it up
23:11 <@polerin> I'm tired.
23:12 <@polerin> and bitchy
23:13 < dochench> http://i30.tinypic.com/et6ump.gif
23:13 < dochench> HAH!
23:18 < dochench> i think i might buy spore... haven't bought entertainment software since xplane-7.
23:21 <@Dagmar> I'm going to give it a couple days, partly because I'm working 12h shifts until Tuesday and partly because I want to see how the multiplayer aspect plays out in the real world
23:22 <@Dagmar> If it does turn into Galaxy Of Penis Monsters, at least I'll have dodged that bullet
23:22 < dochench> heh
23:22 < dochench> if it does, then build a vagina
23:25 <@Dagmar> Some people *have* gotten really creative about the type of penis monsters you can make, as you can see by browsing YouTube, but still...
23:25 <@Dagmar> I don't wanna see 'em.
23:25 <@sdodson> It's not really a multiplayer game.
23:29 <@Dagmar> SWEET JESUS
23:29 <@Dagmar> http://www.wired.com/gadgets/gadgetreviews/magazine/16-09/ts_reviews_helmets
23:29 <@Dagmar> $740 for a helmet
23:29 <@Dagmar> It sure looks it, but damn
23:35 < dochench> http://cbs13.com/national/tattoo.oklahoma.obama.2.806435.html  who are the idiots getting these things.. they might as well get a zune tattoo... oh wait.
23:39 < dochench> http://www.theyrule.net/2004/index.php?mapid=323
--- Log closed Sun Sep 07 00:00:54 2008