--- Log opened Wed Sep 03 00:00:06 2008
00:00 < I-MOD> tzanger, like i said, breaks my shit
00:01 <@scort> it doesn't break anyone elses shit
00:03 < I-MOD> i need to install with sp3
00:03 < I-MOD> instead of upgrading to it
00:03 <@scort> could it possibly be hardware issue?
00:04 <@tzanger> I-MOD: ah
00:04 <@scort> for the longest time i thought it was just pos windows, but it was bad ram when weird shit like that happens
00:05 <@aestetix> vagina
00:08 < I-MOD> bad ram doesn't explain breakage upon service pack installation
00:08 <+Dagmar> Actually, it would.
00:08 <+Dagmar> It would result in LOTS of file corruption
00:08 < CRasH180> yes it does
00:08 < CRasH180> I had the same problem with Windows installs that was caused by bad RAM
00:09 <+Dagmar> Lots and lots of random segfaults were how I figured out I had a problem with the RAM in a Linux machine the last time I had RAM failing
00:09 < I-MOD> except for the fact that i heavily exercise my ram with firefox and gobs of tabs
00:09 < I-MOD> and i have no problems
00:09 <+Dagmar> Yeah, BUT... that doesn't mean you're always using the RAM that's fried.
00:09 <+Dagmar> It's not like unzipping a big file makes it go through RAM equal to the size of the file.
00:10 <+Dagmar> If you've got something dead way up in teh upper ranges of memory, you'll get random issues, and CPU load wont' correlate to it, but memory load will
00:11 < I-MOD> and sp2 increases memory load so much that it regularly exercises those upper ranges?
00:11 <@scort> i need to rma that ram still
00:11 <@scort> before it's too late
00:11 < I-MOD> i hate windows
00:11 <+Dagmar> Just to be sure, let that box run memtest86 all night
00:11 <@scort> Linux phenom 2.6.24-19-generic #1 SMP Wed Aug 20 17:53:40 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:11 <+Dagmar> It's less than 2Mb to download.
00:11 <+Dagmar> It will just about always spot bad RAM
00:11 <@scort> ubuntu comes with memtest preinstalled in grub :D
00:11 <@timoguin> Anyone know a good place I can read about answers to questions like "How many characters can a set of 8 bits represent?"
00:11 <+Dagmar> Yep
00:11  * timoguin doesn't know these things
00:12 <+Dagmar> 255.
00:12 <@scort> 255.255.255.0
00:12 < I-MOD> timoguin, 2^8=256
00:12 <@scort> 32bit ip?
00:12 <+Dagmar> Oof I'm somewhat assuming 0 will still not be used for something
00:12 <+Dagmar> 256 is right tho
00:13 <@timoguin> I don't want to know the answer.  I want to understand.
00:13 <@timoguin> Where does the 2 come into the equation?
00:13 <@scort> 1 0
00:13 <@scort> 1 + 0 = 2
00:13 <@timoguin> Shut the fuck up.
00:13 <@scort> binary
00:14 <@timoguin> Oh.
00:14 <@timoguin> I usually just assume you're not saying anything worth listening to.
00:14 <@scort> who knows
00:14 <@timoguin> That makes sense then.
00:14 <@scort> someone else?
00:16 <@sdodson> yes, it's binary
00:16 <@scort> wheres my apology timoguin
00:16 <@sdodson> Just as two hex digits = 256 as well
00:17 <@sdodson> 16**2 =
00:17 <@aestetix> Um.
00:17 <@timoguin> scort: It's right up there where I said it made sense.
00:17 <@scort> ahh
00:18 <@scort> how do i act smarter on irc and no be such an asshole?
00:18 <@sdodson> aestetix: um?
00:18 <@aestetix> Is there a term for a novice who learns a new idea, and then decides that not only does nobody else know it, but he needs to tell it to everyone else?
00:18 < I-MOD> scort, be someone else
00:18 < I-MOD> aestetix, fanboy
00:18 <@scort> how do i do that
00:18 <@aestetix> scort: type "/nick ware"
00:18 < I-MOD> zealot
00:18 <@sdodson> aestetix: We call that being aestetix.
00:18 < I-MOD> fanboy zealot?
00:18 <@scort> aestetix, i said SMARTER AND NOT an ass
00:19 <@aestetix> And?
00:19 <@scort> ware isn't either
00:19 <@aestetix> Compared to whom?
00:20 <@scort> compared to me
00:20 <@scort> based on previous months
00:20 <@aestetix> I-MOD: hmmm, I guess fanboy could work.
00:22 <@aestetix> sdodson: I don't learn new ideas, I discover them.
00:22 <@sdodson> scort: you're really cool when you're not being all tourettes
00:22 <@aestetix> For example, the notion that if you want to shit faster and stronger, shove a red bull up your ass first.
00:22 <@scort> sdodson, that's when im off my meds
00:22 <@scort> meds=pot
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01:54 <@Catonic> hrm
01:54 <@Catonic> how much of that made it to channel?
01:55 <@timoguin> None.
01:55 <@Catonic> let the awesomeness begin.
01:55 <@Catonic> my boss had a heart attack today.
01:55 <@Catonic> he walked in and caught me fucking the admin assistant in the ass while pulling her hair back to her ankles.
01:56 < coil> what a great joke Catonic
01:56 <@timoguin> Right.
02:00 <@Catonic> so yeah, my boss had a heart attack. Responsibilities++
02:00 <@Catonic> ;
02:01 <@Catonic> At the rate we're going, I'm going to have to organize a walk/run to keep these bastards in shape.
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06:43 < TheLightCosine> AD Distinguished names always read right to left right?
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07:28 <@Dolemite> mr0ning, be0tches and h0ez!
07:33 < TheLightCosine> morning dole
07:34 <@Dolemite> heh, NotLarry has me watching The Big Bang Theory...   it's pretty damn funny
07:42 < TheLightCosine> grr, this kind of bullshit is why i'm not a professional programmer
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08:09 <@sdodson> "Venti" is (r) Starbucks. Makesme hate more.
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08:24 < TheLightcosine> well now i've done it
08:24 < TheLightcosine> this is the msot profressionaly embarassing thing i have ever done
08:24 < TheLightcosine> I accidentally net send spammed our entire domain
08:28 <@sdodson> Is there any proof it was you?
08:30 < TheLightcosine> um beside the fact that it came from my workstation and had my username in the message...i'm sure the activity logs
08:30 < TheLightcosine> lol
08:31 < TheLightcosine> on the plus side, i exposed a serious security vulenrability in how many stations have the Messnger service running on them
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08:40 < I-MOD> TheLightcosine, you were testing messenger service vulnerability, cause that's your job
08:40 < I-MOD> :D
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08:44 < TheLightcosine> I-Mon way ahead of you!
08:44 < TheLightcosine> lol
08:44 < TheLightcosine> i got a GPO altered because of this lol
08:53 < I-MOD> nice
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08:56 < TheLightcosine> no matter how much people tell me it's all good i am still throoughly embarassed
08:56 < TheLightcosine> that's a pretty careless amatuer kind of mistake
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09:03 <@oddball> Ok... that was random
09:07 < TheLightcosine> ?
09:08 <@oddball> There was a blip in my connection large enough cause me to drop my IRC sessions, but not my SSH session.
09:08 <@brimstone> yeah, ssh is awesome like that
09:08 < TheLightcosine> ssh is probably a more stable protocol
09:09 <@brimstone> it just has better keep-alives
09:10 <@oddball> I'm always ammused when I can unplug my laptop, move it to a different room and plug it back into the network without dropping the SSH session. :)
09:12 < I-MOD> yep
09:12 < I-MOD> i often use ssh over vpn
09:12 < I-MOD> i can suspend my laptop, drive to campus, reconnect to their network and the vpn, and maintain the connection
09:12 < TheLightcosine> over encypted mpls! mauhaha
09:13 < I-MOD> that's a retarded amount of keepalive awesomeness
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09:18 < I-MOD>  i always had fun doing net send * on my HS network
09:18 < I-MOD> or do a net send to the server
09:19 < I-MOD> to see how long it would take fish bowl lady to get pissed
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09:29 < TheLightcosine> lol
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09:31 <@dc0de> morning
09:31 <@nachoguy> mr0nin
09:32 <+MaxieZ> howdy
09:33 <@dc0de> sup guys (and gals)
09:33 <+MaxieZ> Just strolled into work
09:33 <+MaxieZ> Bout ta git my drink on (coke zero)
09:34  * dc0de is opening his first cup of coffee
09:34 <@dc0de> me too
09:34 < TheLightcosine> hmm dunno what to think of Chrome so far, anyone else trying it out?
09:35 <@dc0de> TheLightcosine: I haven't...
09:35 <@dc0de> not enough time yet.
09:35 <+MaxieZ> Not I
09:35 <+MaxieZ> Haven't felt the inclination to boot into windows
09:35 <+MaxieZ> I watched Superhero movie last night.....one of the worst movies ever
09:35 < TheLightcosine> i put it in on my work pc here
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09:39 < TheLightcosine> well it certainly renders nicely
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09:49 <@SkyDog_> Morning all.
09:49 <@oddball> morning
09:50 <@dc0de> w00f!
09:50 < TheLightcosine> morning skydog
09:50 <@dc0de> SkyDog_: I just picked up another box of .45 reloads, and a buddy and I are starting to reload like fiends... :)
09:50 <@dc0de> my reloader is at his house, to keep it away from my gremlins...
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09:52 <@dc0de> I have to purchase some .308 dies for the dillon 550b... and I'm in business with my .308.
09:52 <@SkyDog_> dc0de: Awesome man.
09:52 <@SkyDog_> I haven't had alot of time to shoot. I need to get out once before PN and kill some paper.
09:53 <@brimstone> fold little origami animals
09:53 <@dc0de> I'm trying to find the pictures, but there are now two dillon 550B's on the bench, one configured for large primer, and the other for small.
09:53 <@SkyDog_> Then kill them!
09:53 <@brimstone> hang them from dental floss or fishing line
09:53 <@dc0de> SkyDog_: yeah, me tool...
09:53 <@brimstone> so they move in the breeze
09:53 <@dc0de> err, me too.
09:53  * dc0de said tool... heh... heh...
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09:54 < TheLightcosine> heh woops
09:54 <@dc0de> :)
09:55  * TheLightcosine is having fun pushing chrome around
09:55 < TheLightcosine> the rendering engine is really really fast
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09:55 <@dc0de> I wanna see it for linux
09:55 < TheLightcosine> indeed
09:58 < TheLightcosine> it is way faster than firefox 3 though
09:58 < TheLightcosine> i am impressed so far
09:59 < TheLightcosine> I hope they will ahve good plugin capabilities though
09:59 < TheLightcosine> hrm and it better take my gtk themes when in linux
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10:50 <+MaxieZ> Anyone know of a way to tunnel layer2 over layer3?  I realize this is an insane question...
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10:54 <@Dolemite> l2tp ftw!
10:56 <+MaxieZ> Thanks Dolemite
11:03 <+MaxieZ> That breaks my brain
11:03 <+MaxieZ> It's like moving the foundation of a house through the inside of another.
11:04 <@polerin> brimstone: that's actually an interesting (if slightly ...  disturbing) idea
11:04 <@Corydon76-dig> MaxieZ: openvpn
11:04  * Catonic shakes his fist at the daystar
11:05 <+MaxieZ> Corydon76-dig: That's layer 3...Wait...I see your point
11:05 <@Corydon76-dig> MaxieZ: tunneling layer 2 over layer 3 is basically what any VPN does
11:05 <+MaxieZ> Sort of, but it's really layer 3 on a vpn...you set up a private network.
11:06 <+MaxieZ> I'm talking about taking macs from your office and making them work in a different network altogether.
11:06 <+MaxieZ> But your point is valid as layer 3 is being passed in vpn through higher levels as well...I'm just not thinking correctly.
11:10 <@Catonic> appletalk over tcp/ip?
11:11 <@Corydon76-dig> Appletalk refers to the physical link, so not really
11:11 <@Corydon76-dig> Ethertalk, perhaps
11:12 < TheLightcosine> lol
11:13 <@Catonic> keep your etherape away from me.
11:13 < TheLightcosine> ether-rape?
11:13 < TheLightcosine> hmmm
11:29 < TheLightcosine> hmm are there any pages out there to benchmark the rendering engine in a browser?
11:31 <@polerin> TheLightcosine: depends, why?
11:31 <@polerin> trying out chrome?
11:31 <@polerin> :P
11:33 < TheLightcosine> yup
11:33 < TheLightcosine> it's freaking awesome
11:34 < TheLightcosine> i have ie6, firefox3, and chrome installed no my work pc here
11:34 < TheLightcosine> i wanna get a comparison
11:35 < Curbob> open all 3 and then in chrome type in the address bar    about:memory
11:35 <@polerin> iirchttp://scragz.com/archived/mozilla/test-rendering-time
11:35 <@polerin> er
11:35 <@polerin> http://scragz.com/archived/mozilla/test-rendering-time
11:35 < Curbob> oh oops, that doesn't show rendering time.. sorrry
11:36 <@polerin> alternatly, http://google.com and type in "rendering benchmarks browser"
11:36 <@polerin> :P
11:36 < TheLightcosine> no but ti's cool
11:36 < Curbob> lol
11:36 < TheLightcosine> thanks curbob heh
11:37 <@nachoguy> now go to the address bar of ie and put in meatspin.com
11:37 <@nachoguy> err, maybe not
11:37 < Curbob> sweet!
11:37 < TheLightcosine> bite me nachoguy
11:37 < TheLightcosine> heh
11:37 < Curbob> wow talk about rendering!!
11:38 < TheLightcosine> polerin: i did try searching but all i got was svg rendering becnhmarking
11:39 < TheLightcosine> wow
11:39 < TheLightcosine> chrome kicked the crap out of firefox
11:41 < TheLightcosine> actually, even IE6 did better than firefox...hrm
11:41 < Curbob> ouch
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11:43 <@Catonic> heresy! lies! immoral!
11:44 <@Evilpig> what are things heard at the massage parlar before Catonic got his happy ending.
11:46 < TheLightcosine> lol
11:46 < TheLightcosine> was that a daily double?
11:48 <@Evilpig> bah.  just turned a 6' patch cable into 5 maybe 6 1' cables
11:51 <@nachoguy> ooh, now turn each of those into 8 individual 1' wires
11:52 <@nachoguy> you'll have tons of them and be able to send many internets
11:52 <@polerin> nachoguy: dood.. short jumpers are a pita
11:53 <@polerin> maby not so much with ethernet (though I'm not entirely sure) but cable jumpers under 4 inches can be astronomically difficult to make correctly
11:53 <@polerin> esp for the 1" models ;P
11:54 <@polerin> (and my reading skills have disinegrated, I thought you were talking about making a bunch of 1" patch cables
11:55  * aestetix hugs Dolemite 
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12:01  * polerin pokes critch 
12:01 <@polerin> you there?
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12:12 <@Evilpig> no not 1" patch cables.  1' for use in the rack
12:12 <@Evilpig> this place looked horrible before I started.
12:18 <@Catonic> any ethernet jumper under 8' is in violation of the spec
12:19 <@Evilpig> I thought it was any cable connection under 8' was a violation
12:19 <@Evilpig> and a patch cable could be any length at the rack as long as the cable in the wall was more than 8'
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12:32 <+Dagmar> Catonic: I thought it was three feeet
12:39 <@wontonjoe> not getting an answer about when i can go to lunch for two hours makes me want to walk out!
12:40 <@Catonic> wontonjoe: shut up and just take it like a man.
12:41 <@Catonic> Course, usually when they say "take it like a man", they mean in the ass..
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12:58 <@Feltenix> http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/pin.htm my god my PIN number is in there
13:00 <@critch> so is the code to my garage door.
13:00 <@Feltenix> yeah... and every 4 digit number
13:06 <@Dolemite> Curbob : Fire up Chrome and Wireshark at the same time, then after a few keystrokes you'll be uninstalling Chrome.
13:08 <@Catonic> I had that feeling.
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13:12 <@SkyDog_> Dolemite: What's the skinny?
13:12 <@Dolemite> Every keystroke in the address bar is sent to Google so that chrome can recommend autocompletes
13:12 < nated0g_wrk> SkyDog_, long time no see
13:13 <@SkyDog_> I'm around, just not always talking in here.
13:13 <@SkyDog_> How ya doin?
13:14 <@Catonic> Got a good question...
13:14 <@Catonic> How is it that Charter, Comcast, etc. can offer telephony service while still inspecting my packets?
13:16 <@SkyDog_> Read their terms of service. They can rape you in the ass, they just haven't gotten to your account yet. Soon though.
13:19 <+Dagmar> Catonic: Pay attention.  The FCC was pretty clear they were about to fine the shit out of Comcast if they kept doing that
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13:20 < nated0g_wrk> just complaining to my wife about my job
13:20 <@polerin> Dagmar: actually it wasn't the inspection of packets that got them for it, it was the altering of service levels on a per protocol basis that the FCC slapped them for
13:20 <+Dagmar> They can't really do one without the othr
13:21 <@polerin> well, you can inspect packets for other reason than traffic shaping
13:21 <+Dagmar> If you'd like to piss away your common carrier status, sure
13:21 <@polerin> ie ad insertion ect
13:21 <+Dagmar> ...or if you'd like to be sued.
13:21 <@polerin> I'm just being technical :)
13:21 <+Dagmar> Inserting ads in other people's content is going to lose, lose lose.
13:21 <@polerin> I hope so
13:22 <+Dagmar> Many related cases have lost in that realm.
13:22 <@polerin> yeah
13:22 <@polerin> I'm not saying it shouldn't or that it's in a good space
13:22 <@polerin> I'm just saying there are other reasons
13:22 <+Dagmar> NOne kosher.
13:22 <@polerin> did I specify kosher reasons?
13:22 <@polerin> :P
13:23 <@polerin> I happen to agree with you on that
13:23 <@polerin> just, thats not what teh FCCeh was slapping comcast around for
13:24 <@polerin> side note, you saw the crap about the McCain healthcare advisor saying there are no uninsured americans right?
13:25 <+Dagmar> No, but it doesn't suprise me
13:25 <+Dagmar> McCain's people have practically _devolved_
13:25 <+Dagmar> THere's literally nothing they're saying in the media that would withstand *any* sort of logical challenge
13:25 <@wizardpc> did he say there's no one without health insurance or no one without health care?
13:25 <@wizardpc> cuz those are different things
13:26 <+Dagmar> They've finally focused on their real target group.
13:26 <+Dagmar> People stupid enough to believe everything they see on TV.
13:26 <@polerin> http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/28/mccain-health-care-emergency-room/
13:26 <@polerin> no, he said there are no uninsured
13:27 <@polerin> "only people who are denied care are truly uninsured . everyone who gets care is effectively insured by some mechanism,"
13:27 <+Dagmar> Hmm... very axiomatic of him
13:28 <+Dagmar> ..while at the same time being entirely untrue.
13:28 <@wizardpc> okay so he's conlfating health insurance and health care
13:28 <@critch> hmm, so debt collectors are now unsurance companies
13:28 <@Corydon76-dig> If at first you don't like the argument, change the definitions
13:28 < coil> yay free health care
13:28 < coil> im down for maccain
13:28 <@polerin> of course, the declining number of ER's and the fact that ER visits are far more expensive for both the hospital and the patient, and that they are not required to provide healthcare beyond stabilization of the current emergency
13:28 <@polerin> Yeah, that's great.
13:29 <@polerin> So you've got cancer?  go to the er.  They look at you, say "ok what do you want us to do?  you're not at risk of dieing in the next day or two, go home."
13:29 <@wizardpc> oh and if im not allowed to quote malkin you're not allowed to quote thinkprogress
13:29 <@polerin> Awesome!
13:29 < coil> oh heres your bill too
13:29 <@polerin> wizardpc: when did I say you couldn't quote anyone?
13:30 <@polerin> wizardpc: I'm an absolutist on freedom of speech.  I may express my displeasure over something you've said, but I will NEVER tell you that you can't say it.
13:31 < coil>  Google's new Web browser (Chrome) allows files (e.g., executables) to be automatically
13:31 < coil>  downloaded to the user's computer without any user prompt.
13:31 < coil> http://www.milw0rm.com/exploits/6355
13:32 < coil> Google Chrome Crashes with All Tabs
13:32 < coil> http://www.milw0rm.com/exploits/6353
13:32 <@polerin> hehe
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13:32 <@polerin> google on security:  "WTF is that?"
13:33 <@Catonic> Here's my point however... AT&T is a common carrier. To offer telephony service, you have to be a common carrier, do you not?
13:33 < coil> boo att blows
13:38 <+Dagmar> polerin: Methinks some people have forgotten the purpose of the "beta" classification
13:38 <+Dagmar> ...but, it's still great that Milw0rm tore into it
13:39 -!- Pr0nStrGeek_Work [n=bleh@66.199.31.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
13:39 <+Dagmar> ...and the damn thing is still ridiculously fast
13:40 <@juice> i won't be using it anytime soon
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13:43 <@polerin> Dagmar: I know, but still, it's not the first time
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13:57 <@critch> sweet. I love google and linux. http://aaron.instantspot.com/blog/2007/04/30/Batch-image-resizing-in-Ubuntu
13:59 <+Dagmar> Hmm... the short bus has unloaded successfully.
14:00 <@Corydon76-dig> Anybody think Palin looks like the Manchurian candidate?
14:00 <+Dagmar> I think she's just a placeholder
14:00 <@nachoguy> like the guys in wheel chairs ran over the drooling guy laying on the floor?
14:00 <@wizardpc> well, the manchurian candidate was a man, so no
14:00 <+Dagmar> Oh, in addition to being a looney fundamentalist
14:01 <@nachoguy> the womanchurian candidate?
14:01 <@wizardpc> lol
14:01 <@Corydon76-dig> Yeah, but she comes out of nowhere, she makes W look like a moderate, and she's VP to a guy who could drop dead on election night
14:01 <+Dagmar> We should be so lucky
14:01 <@critch> I think this is one of my most favorite pictures from DC-2008. http://www.drunkenlogic.com/DC-2008/dsc02725_640.jpg
14:02 <@nachoguy> Jesus has chosen her.
14:02 <@nachoguy> If he will McCaiin to die so that she may bring forth HIS awesome wrath upon the infidels, so be it.
14:02 <@critch> of to eat some lunch
14:02 < I-MOD> lol
14:03 <@Corydon76-dig> nachoguy: or Joel's Army
14:03 <@nachoguy> Critch, that is fantastic
14:03  * wizardpc remembers the same things being said about Bush. Off to my Government Mandated Christian Indoctrination I was promised
14:04 <@nachoguy> The guy doing the ass slapping looks a lot like Robert Downey Jr as Stark.  I'm sure that was the intent, but pretty good lookalike.
14:04 <@polerin> Yay Joel's army!
14:04 <@polerin> wizardpc: actually, there's been a bunch of that through fedrally funded programs.  Just sayin.
14:04 <@nachoguy> wizardpc, for a weeding?
14:04 <@nachoguy> eer, wedding, but nevermind
14:05  * nachoguy read Christian Indoctrination and had flashbacks
14:05  * Corydon76-dig is only immune because he can preach like the best of them
14:12 <+Dagmar> Fuck preaching.
14:12 <+Dagmar> Just hit people.
14:12 <@wizardpc> polerin: Theyre just forcing that federal money down my throat. I know, I hate it too. Stupid money
14:12 <+Dagmar> It's more honest.
14:15 <@polerin> wizardpc: not what I'm talking about.  They are using fedral dollars for religion based programs.  To qualify for the money, any program has to show that the services are needed.  Because of this, people who need services who are NOT reigious face the choice of not getting those services, or getting them with a healthy dose of religion.
14:16 <@wizardpc> because its illegal to provide those services without federal money, right?
14:16 <@polerin> no, and what does that have to do with it?
14:17 <@polerin> what I'm saying is that the fedral government is using religious institutions to fill societal needs, and in doing so is enabling the religious institutions to push their beliefs on the people in need
14:18 <@wizardpc> and you're inferring that the only way those needs can possibly be met is using federal money. That's not the case
14:18 <@polerin> no, I'm not
14:18 <@polerin> I'm perfectly happy for religious institutions to help fill a need
14:18 <@wizardpc> then what ARE you saying about federal money?
14:19 <@polerin> without *ME* paying for it
14:19 <@polerin> they are using tax dollars to push religion, that's what I'm saying
14:19 <@polerin> I never, ever, ever, inferred that they couldn't exist.
14:19 <@polerin> just that it is a violation of the seperation of church and state for tax dollars to go towards pushing religion on an at-risk population.
14:21 <+Dagmar> ...yet another reason why creationism is inappropriate to teach in Science class.
14:22 <+Dagmar> Fuckers need to be taught the difference between Science and Religion with blunt objects if necessary.
14:22 <@polerin> Dagmar: other than the fact it's not .. uh.. science?
14:22 <@wizardpc> so what services, precisely, are you complaining about?
14:22 <@polerin> wizardpc: there are any number, but services for the homeless population come to mind as a brilliant example :P
14:23 <@polerin> brilliant as in shining, not intelligent sorry
14:23 <@sysmin> Is 200 dollars to much to pay a dominatrix?
14:23 -!- polerin changed the topic of #se2600 to: <@sysmin> Is 200 dollars to much to pay a dominatrix?
14:23 <@polerin> XD
14:23 <@sysmin> Hahaha... I knew that would happen ;)
14:23 <@polerin> sysmin: that depends on the dominatrix and what's involved
14:23 <@sysmin> I just wanted to break up the conversation
14:23 <@polerin> lol
14:24 <@sysmin> A gentle back massage ;)
14:24 <@sysmin> With a fucking whip
14:24 <@sysmin> hahaha
14:26 < ladymerlin> lol
14:26 <@polerin> wizardpc: anyway, I've got something to do, so I'll be back in a bit.  Not just dropping yah cold :P
14:28 <@sysmin> Just out of curiosity, does anyone have pictures of my Defcon presentation?
14:29 < ladymerlin> we have the vidio of it
14:29 <@sysmin> Yeah, that kinda sucked though.. hahah
14:29 <@sysmin> The Black Hat one was better
14:30 <@sysmin> Technical difficulties at Defcon
14:30 < ladymerlin> lol
14:36 <@Neoteric> isn't the blackhat version of everything better?
14:36 <@Neoteric> well... until las vegas gets boring
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14:38 <+Dagmar> Wow
14:38 <+Dagmar> Now, here's a post with an interesting assumption in the middle
14:38 <+Dagmar> http://nashville.craigslist.org/ele/825576414.html
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14:39 < coil> Dagmar: porn?
14:39 < coil> was that the keyword?
14:40 <+Dagmar> Yeah
14:40 <+Dagmar> Like, where the hell did htat come from?
14:40 < coil> im fucking useless
14:40 < coil> let me go jump off a cliff
14:41 <+Dagmar> What kind of life is that guy living that he'd assume people were looking for "porn cameras"
14:41  * I-MOD shows coil to the cliff
14:41 <+Dagmar> Was it your post on CL?
14:41 < coil> yeah
14:41 < coil> cuz im in the nashville area and such
14:41 <+Dagmar> That ad's just weird
14:41 < coil> i've seen weirder
14:42 <+Dagmar> I wonder if I check the crochet section will I find someone trying to sell macrame rope "in case you need to tie up any little kids in your basement" or something
14:42 < coil> "20 yo old looking for bee master to be his slave"
14:43 <+Dagmar> I'm marking that one for Best Of Craiglsist
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14:47 <@nachoguy> Bee Master, that one is full of great sexual puns
14:47 < coil> nachoguy: knows what im talking about?
14:53 <@polerin> coil: **twitch**
14:53 <+Dagmar> rofl @ pennyarcade
14:53 <@polerin> that's still not as good as the southern boi
14:53 < coil> play dress up
14:54 < coil> confederate and the yankee
14:54 < coil> i <3 that one
14:55 <@polerin> yeah...  it's the detail that REALLY gets you on that one
14:55 < coil> that would be hot
14:55 < coil> roleplaying
15:03 < coil> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/06/Guide_to_the_internets.jpg
15:05 <@Jagobah> good guide
15:05 <@Neoteric> why is it that all the sudden I have the urge to goto toorcon?
15:05 <@Neoteric> SkyDog, sysmin: are you guys going?
15:06 <@SkyDog_> Fuck toorcon. They screwed us last year by having their con at the same time..
15:06 <+Dagmar> I don't think it was intentional
15:06 <@SkyDog_> I like K1kari, but I don't wanna goto san diego this year.
15:07 <@SkyDog_> They didn't secure the hotel like they should have.
15:07 <@SkyDog_> So the only week that they had open was the same as ours.
15:07 <@SkyDog_> I like Hikari, don't get me wrong.
15:07 <@SkyDog_> I offered to let him use part of my array for testing...
15:08 < coil> hot
15:08 <@Neoteric> skydog: I still say next time cons are double booked we should conference both cons together thru the tubes.
15:08 < coil> can i see your array
15:08 < coil> maybe even touch it SkyDog_ ?
15:09 <@wizardpc> Neoteric: yeah cuz we have unlimited bandwidth at the hotel :D
15:09 <@Neoteric> wizardpc: uh... If need be I'll drag the bandwidth myself :)
15:09 <@aestetix> vagina
15:09 <@SkyDog_> coil: If you come to PN, possibly you can see it.
15:10 < coil> *erection*
15:10 <@wizardpc> oooo maybe we can steal a sat truck from teh air force!
15:10 <@aestetix> Why don't you through out00rcon?
15:10  * aestetix ducks
15:10 <@wizardpc> they have one in tullahoma
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15:39 <@scort> http://idisk.mac.com/js/web/images/download_active.gif
15:39 <@scort> grrr
15:39 <@nachoguy> they had a toorcon seattle?  I didn't know that
15:40 <@scort> http://www.scoil.info/gallery2/v/civil-war.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 craigslist post for the civil war
15:41 <+Dagmar> wow http://www.geekologie.com/2008/07/omg_omg_watch_this_right_now.php
15:42 <+Dagmar> Talk about having a texting problem
15:45 <@nachoguy> wow, that was NSFW
15:45 < cwire> that was awesome
15:46 < eryc> bikes have cruise control?
15:47 <+Dagmar> eryc: No, but with great idiocy comes great irresponsibiliity
15:47 <@critch> Actually, yes bikes can have cruise control
15:48 <@critch> There are items called throttle lockers. And others actually have proper computerized throttle control
15:48 <@critch> http://www.throttlemeister.com/
15:49 <@scort> hi how do i bike
15:51 <@critch> ahh shit, they are now putting airbags even on the goldwings.
15:52 <@wizardpc> wha..HUH?
15:52 <@wizardpc> how do you DO that?
15:52 <@critch> says something about 4 sensors in the forks. Shows a few photos of the bag coming out of the handlebar area
15:53 <@critch> I'm just thinking it must be really funny to watch the geezers bounce off of the bag and get thrown that much further.
15:54 <@wizardpc> this week in "Taking a good idea too far" cinema: Crash testing a motorcylce with airbags!
15:57 <@critch> goldwing crash test with airbag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18zKUlxWW08&feature=related
15:58 <@oddball> I'd much rather have a car with no front airbag, but side curtain bags.
15:59 <@oddball> the reports I've seen show that the front airbags + seatbelt isn't much different that seatbelt... oh, and that's only if you're average height and weight.
16:01 <@oddball> As for motorcycles, I guess it stops the rider from flying over the other vehicle/shoving him through the window.
16:03 <@critch> It all depends on how you hit. If I think I am going to hit, I am going to be fairly stiff, and unlikely to need the airbag to keep me off the dash. Not to mention all the different ways I could slide in to remove 2/3rds of the energy by getting clear of the bike.
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16:04 <@oddball> This is true
16:04 <@critch> I know me + bike is 920lbs, Me  alone is 327lbs. Removing bike from equation reduces energy needed to be absorbed
16:04 <+Dagmar> Man I'm going to mke the hippies in Minneapolis hate me
16:05  * oddball is almost afraid to ask.
16:05 <@critch> Watched a show last night that basically said most motorcycle accidents are caused by hesitation. So aggressive riders are more likely to not hesitate and be able to get clear.
16:05 <@oddball> Oh, and what scooter did you settle on?
16:06 <@SkyDog_> Dagmar: My scooter is sitting at the top of the peabody campus, under the portico.
16:06 <@oddball> critch: Yeah, I would guess most are caused either by hesitation, or dumb ass car drivers.
16:06 <@critch> well, there are a lot of dumb ass moves by others that are avoidable.
16:07 <@critch> They didn't say it was the fault of the rider, just that hesitation removed the possibility of avoidance
16:07 <@oddball> It's sad that I've had to consider that my Fiero might actually be less visible that many guys on bikes
16:08 <@oddball> (sure it's twice as wide, but it's also damn short)
16:08 <@scort> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7594249.stm
16:09 <@polerin> just a lil oddball
16:09 <@polerin> just a lil
16:10 <@oddball> I was navigating a parking lot the other day, looked to my left and saw nothing but the ass end of a caddy heading towards me.
16:11 <+Dagmar> oddball: I'm getting a *MANLY* horn to add to mine
16:11 <+Dagmar> It's going to fucking shake windows
16:11 <+Dagmar> I just gotta figure out how manly it can be without deforming the scooter's shape.
16:12 <@oddball> Yeah, I'm very happy that the Fiero has a horn made in the 80's... you know, back when a horn said "Watch out, Mother FUCKERR!" instead of "umm... excuse me."
16:12 <+Dagmar> SkyDog_: If I knew what you meant by portico I'd be considering parking there myself
16:12 <+Dagmar> There's entirely too much fru-fru on this campus
16:13 < eryc> http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2008/09/03/aboutinternets/
16:13 <@SkyDog_> Hehe! It's at the top of the quad. The left and right side of the wyatt building has arched walkways. I park underneath there.
16:13 <+Dagmar> I can't find anything saying I *shouldn't* explicitly, so I'm going to start cabling my scooter to those unused bike poles at the Commons
16:13 <@SkyDog_> GO for it man.
16:14 <@SkyDog_> I'd cable mine, but it weighs 616lbs dry. I don't think anyone's gonna be walking away with it.
16:14 <@critch> Dagmar: there are some nice air horn options. They come in two portions, one for the compressor, and then the horn. Allows you some options for locations and brackets.
16:15 <@critch> SkyDog_: don't be too certain. Especially right now there have been a lot more bike thefts.
16:15 <@SkyDog_> it'd be difficult.
16:15 <@scort> eryc, cute
16:16 <@critch> SkyDog_: not really. Think about it going into neutral without a key. IF you aren't locking the steering, someone can just hope on, put in neutral and roll it away for later pickup with truck or trailer.
16:16 <@SkyDog_> I lock the steering. :)
16:16 <+Dagmar> Mine is 215lbs
16:16 <+Dagmar> *I* can lift it myself if I absoltely have to
16:17 <@wizardpc> wtf kind of scooter weighs 600lbs?
16:17 <+Dagmar> I'm not parking it much of anywhere without tethering it to something serious
16:17 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: 250cc models aren't so featherweight
16:17 <@SkyDog_> wizardpc: a yamaha Vstar 1100.
16:17 <@critch> wizardpc: one with a nice size motor
16:17 <@wizardpc> thats no scooter
16:17 <@SkyDog_> :)
16:17 <+Dagmar> I have to concur.
16:17 <+Dagmar> You've lied to us
16:17 <+Dagmar> Naughty naughty
16:17 <@oddball> wizardpc: not all scooters are push powered
16:18 <@sdodson> who?!
16:18 <@SkyDog_> Dagmar: If I had a 250, I'd look like a monkey on a tricycle.
16:18 <@scort> sdodson, do you have a scooter
16:18 <@scort> or still that rsx
16:18 <+Dagmar> This is like the difference between a rifle and a street sweeper
16:18 <@sdodson> critch: dagmar wanted me to believe that most motorcycles were 1500lbs or so
16:18 <@sdodson> scort: RSX
16:18 <+Dagmar> Pistol grip + semi-automatic == street sweeper and nono
16:18 <@scort> oh sorry for mistyping it
16:18 <+Dagmar> Rifle grip + semi-automatic == mostly legal
16:19 <+Dagmar> Motorcycles have footpegs
16:19 <@critch> sdodson: just the big baggers and large touring bikes. Good ones should be under 1000lbs
16:19 <+MaxieZ> Let me know if you guys think I'm being stupid on this.  I have a customer who wants to install squid on his web server so he can surf with multiple IPs (our ips).  I declined to do this on his web server, but I told him I'd be happy to do so on a separate machine.  My reasoning is that a web server and web surfing are two different security models that I don't want to merge as we're not sure what all could go wrong.
16:19 <+Dagmar> Scooters have floorboards.
16:19 <@wizardpc> errr....dagmar is confused
16:19 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: No, actually I'm not.  In California they make it real simple
16:19 <+MaxieZ> Maybe I'm just being overly paranoid.
16:20 <@wizardpc> a streetsweeper is a particular model shotgun
16:20 <@critch> Dagmar: hmm, I have friends with Honda VTX1300 with floorboards. I think you are refering to the difference between stradling and stepping through.
16:20 <+Dagmar> If it's got a rifle stock you're probably okay.  A pistol stock is considered not okay.
16:20 <+Dagmar> Bayonettes are completely out of hte question, for some reaosn
16:20 <+Dagmar> critch: Pretty much.  That thing Skydog got isn't a scooter.  Heh
16:20 <@sdodson> critch: It's ok, I told him he was wrong, he argued then cried.
16:20 <@wizardpc> ah you're talking about a state that none of us live in
16:20 < nated0g_wrk> but a pistol gripped 12 guage with a 18.5 barrel is considered home defense
16:20 <@SkyDog_> MaxieZ: Sounds logical to me.
16:21 <+Dagmar> I'd say he's up to something
16:21 <@critch> nated0g_wrk: I did some trap shooting with a 20guage pistol grip pump shotgun, Felt like my glock, really odd.
16:21 <+MaxieZ> Dagmar: I am suspicious, but not certain
16:21 <@wizardpc> In DC, a glock is a machinegun
16:21 < nated0g_wrk> did you hit anything with it?
16:21 <@SkyDog_> http://www.vstar1100.com/gallery/MyV-Star.jpg
16:21 < eryc> MaxieZ: blog spam
16:21 <@SkyDog_> This is similar to mine.
16:22 < nated0g_wrk> in dc a pellet gun is a class 3 weapon
16:22 <+Dagmar> So, how do you expect to fire a semi-automatic rifle *accurately* with a pistol stock, as compared to one with a rifle stock you can properly brace.
16:23 <@oddball> Dagmar: come to the range sometime, and we can show you.
16:23 <@wizardpc> Dagmar: a streetsweeper is a SHOTGUN model
16:23 < nated0g_wrk> pistol grip is more of a tactical thing
16:23 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: You keep saying that, and I'll keep not really caring
16:23 <@scort> about:internets
16:23 <+Dagmar> Most people would consider a "streetsweeper" to be anything more useful for spraying bullets indscriminately in an urban setting
16:24 <@critch> Dagmar: here is a good picture of a motorcycle with floorboards. http://www.sideroadcycles.com/importedmotorcycles/ImportAccessories/AccessoryImages/650vstar.jpg
16:24 <@wizardpc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetsweeper
16:24 <+Dagmar> On the flipside of this, apparently in CA so long as you're careful to hit only the people you want to hit, they're fine with the semi-automatic rifles
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16:25 <@wizardpc> Dagmar: I'm trying to help you out here
16:25 <+Dagmar> So do we wait until I can cite that same URL to show that streetsweepers are used for anal, or do we just keep on going?
16:25 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: No, you're trying to enforce a very narrow definition of a slang term as a specific product model.
16:26 <+Dagmar> People who aren't aware someone named their gun "street sweeper" would say an uzi is one in a heartbeat
16:26 <@wizardpc> no, im saying that what you think you know is not correct, and I'm trying to help you not look like an idiot
16:26 <+Dagmar> Whatever
16:26 <@scort> Place of origin 	Flag of South Africa South Africa
16:26 <+Dagmar> Ask people who _aren't_ into guns sometime
16:27 <@scort> why did it come from south africa
16:28 <@oddball> Dagmar: ok, next time someone says the manufacturer of their computer is Microsoft, I guess it would be wrong for me to correct them.
16:28 <@wizardpc> Dagmar: I'm trying to educate you. Just because my grandmother refers to her computer as "the modem" doesnt mean that she'd right about the term
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16:30 <@oddball> scort: South Africa has been the source of many "fun" military items.
16:30 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: You're getting anal about something completely TRIVIAL to the point at hand, fucker
16:30 <+Dagmar> IT'S GOT A FUCKING PISTOL STOCK ON IT, DUDE.
16:30 <+Dagmar> That's the point.
16:30 <@scort> oddball, like what else?
16:30 <@wizardpc> no, it doesnt.
16:30 <@nachoguy> wait, my typewriter isn't supposed to be plugged into the modem and the TV?
16:30 <+Dagmar> http://www.google.com/search?q=streetsweeper&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
16:31 <+Dagmar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Protecta-shotgun-p1030163.jpg
16:31 <@sdodson> Dagmar thinks everything is trivial, like being off on the weight of a motorcycle by a factor of two
16:31 <+Dagmar> All three images.  Pistol grip.  Right there.  Hard to fucking miss.
16:31 <+Dagmar> Illegal in CA.
16:31 <@scort> Dagmar, needs to smoke a bowl
16:31 <@wizardpc> ya seriosly
16:32 <@oddball> scort: a helicopter that looks a lot like the Soviet Hind, flamethrowers attached to the side of cars to be used as "non-lethal deterents..."
16:32 <+Dagmar> Why the fuck you want to obsess over a brand name is beyond me
16:32 <+Dagmar> You guys are the ones who need to spark a bowl.
16:32 <@scort> dude oddball those sound hot
16:32 <@wizardpc> dagmar, I never ever want to see you correct someone's terminology ever again
16:33 <@wizardpc> even if you're trying to help
16:33 <@nachoguy> flamethrowers are non lethal.  you'd have to stand around in the fire to die.  You know, or someone would have to keep it trained on you, but they would NEVER do that.
16:35 < eryc> diaf?
16:35 <@scort> yeah that sounds like fun
16:35 <@scort> so it would only burn off your hair and not cook you?
16:36 <@scort> i dont see how that works
16:36 <+Dagmar> wizardpc: Go bitch at California
16:36 <@scort> Dagmar, r u azn?
16:36 <+Dagmar> The term was used in their documentation explaining to people how to figure out if their gun is legal or not.
16:36 <@wizardpc> WE ARENT FUCKING IN CALIFORNIA!! NO ONE IN HERE IS!!!!
16:36 <+Dagmar> So what?
16:36 <@brimstone> i am
16:36 <+Dagmar> I've said several times I was using it as slang.
16:36 <@brimstone> now simmer down wizardpc
16:36 <@scort> lies by brimstone
16:36 <@nachoguy> Scort, passing a lighter under a steak doesn't cook it ether.
16:36 <+Dagmar> So, what part of that keeps eluding you
16:37 <@nachoguy> I don't really have a point
16:37 <+Dagmar> How about this...
16:37 <@scort> nachoguy, so it's a little flame and not tf2 style flame thrower?
16:37 <+Dagmar> s/streetsweeper/LIKE A STREETSWEEPER/g;
16:37 <@nachoguy> I figured you might just want to imagine butane flavored raw meat.
16:37 <+Dagmar> Are we happy NOW?
16:37 <@scort> Dagmar, no
16:37 <@scort> you need to tie my shoes
16:37 <+Dagmar> scort: Then you can fuck right off
16:37 <@nachoguy> scort, sure, military helicopters never go full bore on weapons, they're like sampler packs
16:38 <@nachoguy> like fun sized bars of snickers
16:38 <+Dagmar> This is goddamn stupid to argue about
16:38 <@scort> cuz ammo is too expensive for 3rd world countries?
16:38 <+Dagmar> It would be like worrying about your shoes being untied as you parachute jump.
16:38 <+Dagmar> PEDANTRY.  WE CAN HAS IT.
16:38 <@scort> no
16:38 <+Dagmar> Go look up "pedantry" then
16:39 <@brimstone> pedantic=no
16:39 <@polerin> wait, my understanding of flamethrowers is that most of the fuel didn't burn immediatly
16:39 <@nachoguy> polerin, quit flaming.
16:39  * nachoguy snickers
16:39 <+Dagmar> brimestone: When I was talking about the clear difference between a scooter and a motorcycle?  Yes.  Getting tweaked out about whether or not "streetsweeper" is a generic term or a brandname (especially since it's migrating into being a generic term) is _pedantry_
16:39 <@polerin> that part of the idea behind it was to saturate the target so it will keep burning
16:40 <@scort> wtf fuel does most common flamethrowers use?
16:40 <@scort> gasoline?
16:40 <+MxZBot> gasoline is simply highly refined diesel...
16:40 <@nachoguy> I was making it up as I went
16:40 <@scort> kerosene?
16:40 <@polerin> (this is not a comment one way or the other, just technical interest)
16:40 <@nachoguy> goat urine?
16:40 <@brimstone> what about mopeds?
16:40 <@oddball> scort: usually a form of napalm or gas
16:40 <@brimstone> where's wontonjoe when we need him?
16:40 <@oddball> of course, napalm is just gas + liquid detergent...
16:40 <+Dagmar> "The term in English is typically used with a negative connotation, indicating someone overly concerned with minutiae..."
16:40 <@nachoguy> goat urine?
16:40 <+MxZBot> goat urine is what is used in flamethrowers
16:41 <@scort> so it does burn for a while
16:41 <@nachoguy> well, the bot says so
16:41 <@oddball> Well, you can destil urine into an explosive...
16:42 <@polerin> yay saltpeter!
16:42 <@polerin> .. I think.
16:42 <@polerin> (I fail at chemistry, so I never bothered to try)
16:43 <@scort> oddball, because of the nitrogen that's in it?
16:43 <@oddball> I think so... it's been awhile since I looked that up.
16:44  * oddball is kind of glad he no longer has a copy of the US military's improvised munitions handbook.
16:44 <@scort> oh o
16:44 <@polerin> also this guy looks disturbingly like tom
16:44 <@polerin> http://tcpip.livejournal.com/
16:45 <@brimstone> it's the chin
16:45 <@brimstone> and the air
16:45 <@brimstone> *hair
16:45 <@oddball> It was interesting to read what you could do with common substances, but it might have meant me answering awkward questions if the police got the wrong address and raided my place.
16:45 <@polerin> and the cheeks/nose too
16:45 <@polerin> the eyes and forehead are a bit off
16:45 <@polerin> but.. yeah.
16:46 <@polerin> jaw is a bit off as well
16:47 <@scort> tom who
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16:48 <+MaxieZ> Tom Cross?
16:48 <@scort> wtf
16:48 <@scort> (who)
16:48 <@brimstone> if he has a son named christopher, god so help me
16:49 <+MaxieZ> noobs
16:49 <@scort> yeah i know im a nub
16:49 <+MaxieZ> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cross_(computer_security)
16:50 <@scort> halp i can only click on half that link
16:50 <@scort> damn xchat
16:50 <@scort> ohhh decius
16:51 <@scort> sorry i dont know everyone's real name
16:51 < I-MOD> neither do i
16:53 <@aestetix> Didn't he also found (or co-found) se2600?
16:59 < eryc> no that was my mom
17:00 < eryc> i founded phreaknic
17:01 <+Dagmar> Decius was there before JonnyX and I
17:01 < eryc> i went to the coffee shop one day and announced, hey guys, lets invite fucktards from the south to a crappy motel!
17:01 <@scort> Dagmar, whos more worthless, me or eryc ?
17:01 < eryc> the rest is history!
17:01 <@polerin> Dagmar: just sayin, he looks like tom :P
17:02 <@aestetix> eryc: uh, if you were at any of the early phreaknics, you'd know just how true that statement is :p
17:02 <+Dagmar> Who looks like Tom?
17:02 <@polerin> lol
17:02 < eryc> aestetix: ya i helped pick the name
17:02 <+Dagmar> J. Random Hippy?
17:02 <@scort> yo momma Dagmar
17:02 <@polerin> http://tcpip.livejournal.com/
17:02 <@polerin> ^^ that dood
17:02 < eryc> me and maverick
17:02 <@aestetix> he does kinda
17:03 <+Dagmar> Hmm... pale skin, cleft chin, long hippie hair?
17:03 <+Dagmar> A bit yeah
17:03 <@polerin> nose and cheekbones too
17:03 <@aestetix> Fucking hippie
17:03 <@polerin> the jaw is a bit lower, and the top of the head a bit narrower
17:03 <@aestetix> haha
17:03 <@scort> yuppie
17:03 <@aestetix> http://www.livejournal.com/allpics.bml?user=tcpip
17:03 <@aestetix> there's a guy in his pics page that looks like rattle
17:03 <@polerin> he also doesn't have that insane look in his eye that tom gets
17:03 <@polerin> hehe
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17:04 <@scort> pics polerin
17:04 <+Dagmar> Get him drunk and see if it comes out
17:04 <@scort> pics polerin plz
17:04 <@polerin> Dagmar: he's an aussie.  I'd have issues with that one
17:04 <+Dagmar> You have problems getting Aussies drunk?
17:04 <@aestetix> polerin: do you think he's vute?
17:04 <@aestetix> cute*
17:04 <+Dagmar> You don't _have_ to drink their godawful beer too ya know
17:04 <@polerin> when they are in australia, yeah :P
17:05 <+Dagmar> Ah
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17:05 <@polerin> I meen I guess I could appeal to his scientific side and see if he would get drunk on webcam and then start ranting, but I think he might take that the wrong way
17:05 <@polerin> :P
17:06 <+Dagmar> That depends on if you show him Decius' video or not
17:06 <@polerin> hehehe
17:06 <@polerin> the classic one?
17:06 <+Dagmar> "Privshee ish overrrated!"
17:06 <@aestetix> man
17:06 <@polerin> oh, I was thinking the aliens vid
17:06 <@aestetix> Why are there PN talks in the morning
17:07 <+Dagmar> Any of 'em would do
17:07 <@polerin> yeah
17:07 <@aestetix> you know everyone is going to sleep through 3/4 of them
17:07 <@polerin> aestetix: uh, not everyone does
17:07 <+Dagmar> aestetix: Probably because we might have another jet-fueled "wake up call"
17:07 <@polerin> I had a fairly good audience for my talk, and I was what.. the second person up :P
17:07 <+Dagmar> WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
17:07 <@aestetix> I remember at DefCon, I walked up to Richard Thieme and asked if he wanted to go for lunch
17:07 <@aestetix> His response: "Dude, it's 6pm"
17:07 <@scort> richard d james
17:08 <@aestetix> polerin: ok everyone worthwhile
17:08 <@aestetix> except the people who wake up to heckle the poor soul stuck with a morning talk
17:09  * polerin zip tie's aestetix to the railing and leaves him there
17:09 <@polerin> ass
17:09 <@polerin> I meen it wasn't the best presentation in the world but it wasn't THAT bad
17:11 <@aestetix> actually
17:11 <@aestetix> I think really in the last year
17:11 <@aestetix> the only conference talk I've gone to, I gave
17:11 <@sdodson> yay new hardware
17:11 <@aestetix> no wait, I went to hypatia's talk
17:12 < eryc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4sOM4tpno
17:13 <+Dagmar> Whoa
17:13 <+Dagmar> That's some serious talk there
17:14 <+Dagmar> They even used the word "gimmick"
17:19 <@aestetix> Well, it's fucking true.
17:19 <@sdodson> BUH BYE!
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17:22 <@polerin> anyone have a transcript of that, having trouble making it out
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17:32 < TdC_VgA> HAHAHAHAHHAHAH
17:32 < TdC_VgA> the one lady says "it's over"
17:32 < TdC_VgA> hahahah
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17:38 <+MaxieZ> scort: What was richard d james in reference to?
17:38 <@scort> Bush hid the facts
17:38 <@scort> MaxieZ, in reference to aphex twin
17:39 <+MaxieZ> um ok...
17:39 <@Catonic> LMFAO
17:39 <+MaxieZ> Totally lost, but ok.  I listen to aphex twin...just not sure where it came from in the conversation
17:39 <@Catonic> my coworker's wife decided to give blood last minute..
17:39 <+MaxieZ> so he cut her?
17:39 <@Catonic> so it's taking time for her to do so...
17:40 <@Catonic> I overheard the conversation and said to myself "Bleed faster, bitch!"
17:40 <+MaxieZ> why is it that a woman can bleed for 7 days when it's convenient for them, but when it's time to go home they can't squirt some out?
17:42 <@scort> MaxieZ, i dunno, aestetix said richard, so the only richard i know is him
17:43 <+MaxieZ> ah ok
17:46 <@scort> i have great logic...kinda like a women
18:01 < TdC_VgA> polerin: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/
18:02 < TdC_VgA> transcript on that page =)
18:04 <+Dagmar> Man, seeing this *much* video of the cops using tear gas and rubber bulllets on people without any warning or provocation makes me feel like every last one of those motherfuckers at the convention are complete assholes.
18:04 <+Dagmar> There's craptons more going on than CNN is letting on
18:09 <@scort> omg riots
18:10 <@scort> now wheres that streetsweeper we've been talking about
18:10 <@scort> i think they should use that at all the republican conventions
18:10 < TdC_VgA> Dagmar: got a link?
18:10 < TdC_VgA> arresting amy goodman was just a bad idea... moron RNC tools
18:16 <+Dagmar> TdC_VgA: Just fuckin' look around on the web man
18:17 < TdC_VgA> thank you for being so informative.
18:17 <+Dagmar> It's still the same three sites as yesterday that have the majority of the vidos
18:17 <+Dagmar> Except this bit
18:17 <+Dagmar> http://www.stupidsheeple.com/index.php/2008090140/latest/bristol-palin-gone-wild.html
18:18 <+Dagmar> GREAT pics of the Palin kida in possession of both beer and hard liquor, underage, with firearms, too
18:18 <+Dagmar> YAY!
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18:19 <+MaxieZ> ~minilink
18:19 <+MxZBot> http://maxiez.com/l/stupidsheeple.com/sINaz.html
18:19 <+Dagmar> I R TEH AWESOMES
18:19 <+Dagmar> http://www.stupidsheeple.com/images/stories/palin/l_35f7a16c03a722609ce1effe6a98224d.jpg
18:19 <+Dagmar> Underage girls and Capn Morgan
18:19 <+Dagmar> Oh and GANG SIGN
18:20 <+MaxieZ> I liked that the link kind of looked like "is nazi"
18:20 <@scort> i was wondering why all those people looked a bit young
18:20 <+MaxieZ> ~minilink
18:20 <+MxZBot> http://maxiez.com/l/stupidsheeple.com/2cifE.jpg
18:20 < TdC_VgA> UPDATE4: It's pretty clear that the pictures are from Levi's sister and not Bristol Palin...  Still a big concern about the family Bristol is marrying into and helps explain some of what is going on...  Still doesn't excuse Sarah Palin for her lack of parenting skills...  But it's clear now the drinking pictures are of Bristol's soon to be sister-in-law and not her.  BTW we're not some left wing rumor machine, we only reported what we w
18:20 <@scort> Dagmar, no you're not awesome, just a dick
18:21 <+Dagmar> ...and scort goes into the ignore list
18:22 <@scort> burn
18:22 <+Dagmar> Someday, these guys will maybe learn it's not acceptable to be a cocktard 24/7
18:22  * scort runs away crying
18:22 <+Dagmar> cerkit was banned from here for being a dick all the time, but at least cerkit would hold a legitimate argument about something.
18:23 <+MaxieZ> This is true...Cerkit always was arguing something
18:23 <+Dagmar> Ah but something specific
18:23 <+Dagmar> None of this stupid "u r a dick" crap
18:24 < TdC_VgA> shame those are of the sister in law
18:24 <+Dagmar> But that's okay.  I'm sure no one will be in the dark as to why certain events transpire when these guys mouth off to people at PN without the internets to protect them
18:24 <+Dagmar> TdC_VgA: Somehow it doesn't much matter to me.  Knocked up and boozing is good enough for me
18:26 <+MaxieZ> Really, it doesn't matter to me at all...I'm far more concerned about the fact that she didn't have a passport and had never left the country till last year
18:26 <+Dagmar> There's no way that woman should be VP
18:27 <@scort> dagmar just threatened me
18:27 <@scort> im calling the police
18:27 <+MaxieZ> I suppose it's ok though.  Jesus loves her and wants her to be vp
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18:28 <+Dagmar> More like "corrupt election officials want her to be VP"
18:28 <+Dagmar> I'm going to have to go shopping for a pitchfork next week, I just know it
18:29 <+MaxieZ> Reading this review of Chrome: "At work, I often have 40 or 50 tabs open in Firefox"
18:29 <+MaxieZ> WTF?
18:29 <+Dagmar> Yeah
18:29 <+Dagmar> Some people's job involves looking at a lot of porn at once
18:29 <@brimstone> i don't see people keep track of that many tabs
18:29 <+Dagmar> Rational people use collections of bookmarks and bookmark folders.
18:30 <+MaxieZ> How can you see your tabs like that?
18:30 <@brimstone> but now, you have the overhead of an ENTIRE PROCESS for each tab
18:30 <+MaxieZ> At work I run 40 to 50 thousand tabs...I ran out of pids!
18:31 <+Dagmar> brimstone: Doesn't ammount to much on any modern OS.
18:31 <+Dagmar> You fork, and only the unique resources get cloned
18:31 <@brimstone> i don't really know how processes work, at the os level
18:32 <@brimstone> i'm just trying to troll on chrome
18:32 <+Dagmar> Run FF, and let's say it takes up 100Mb of RAM (which is way more than reality)
18:32 <+Dagmar> Start a second copy and it doesn't take up another 100M
18:32 <+Dagmar> brimstone: Well, it's beta
18:32 <+Dagmar> They were up front about it
18:32 <+Dagmar> Yeah, it's kinda in a scary state but when it runs, jesus it's fast
18:33 <+MaxieZ> No, cause the second FF is a new window in the same process
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18:34 <+Dagmar> MaxieZ: I said start a second copy and I meant it
18:35 <+Dagmar> It's just easier to illustrate when some newb is hollering about how FF is taking up "OMG SO MUCH RAM" because they were looking at something like the GNOME memory reporting tool which um, does not produce readable rsults IMHO
18:35 <@Catonic> Dagmar: just seeing how the police are acting now in riot gear is enough to make you want to take to a high ledge with a sniper rifle and some non-lethal ammo.
18:36 <+Dagmar> Ya point out to them that if they actually added up all the memory allocated for everything, they'd see that somehow their machine is actaully using >6Gb of RAM
18:36 <+Dagmar> Catonic: Yeah specifically in one of those videos the cops didn't say a damn WORD
18:36 <+Dagmar> They just showed up and started pointing rubber bullets and tear gas launchers at the kids across the street.
18:36 <+Dagmar> ...and then started using them.
18:37 <+Dagmar> I dont' want to climb a clock tower over it, but I'd like to sit the mayor and chief of police down at a table there and show them all these videoes and have them explain exactly which fucking country these cops think tehy're in
18:37 <+Dagmar> ...becuase those guys should be resigning over this if they had any self-respect.
18:37 <@Catonic> I had a Birmingham cop put me on edge once... knocked on my door in the middle of the day (I was sleepin), when I answered the door, he placed his foot on the threshold.
18:38 <+Dagmar> Catonic: I assume you responded with "I'm sorry, did you have a warrant?"
18:38 <+Dagmar> "...or is this a home invasion?"
18:38 <+Dagmar> I know I've called the cops on the cops before.
18:39 <+MaxieZ> How did that work out?
18:39 <+MaxieZ> Most cops I know don't give a damn when you report other cops?
18:39 <@Catonic> The first thing that told me he -might- be a cop was the radio he was using. I knew the model number just on seeing it.
18:39 <+Dagmar> Pretty well considering the cops I called the cops on were 100% in the wrong.
18:39 <+Dagmar> See, I'm a bastard.  I wasn't _asked_ if they were cops, so I didn't mention it.
18:39 <@aestetix> man
18:39 <@Catonic> The second thing was the badge on his chest that read "Birmingham" over the top and "Police" over the bottom.
18:39 <+Dagmar> I just said there's some guys with guns.
18:39 <+MaxieZ> ah
18:40 <@aestetix> It seems that every hour I spend in sunlight, I have to sleep for 2
18:40 <@Catonic> He didn't say "police" at any point.
18:40 <@Catonic> just some dumpy 275 lb 5'7" dude on the doorstep.
18:40 <@brimstone> 10BaseF lol
18:41 <@Catonic> prolly about 55 years old, wearing glasses... looks like a security guard.
18:41 <+Dagmar> "I'm sorry your honor, I'd just woken up and checking out his man-boobs wasn't exactly high on my list of things to do"
18:41 <+Dagmar> There's a reason they have to identify themselves as police.
18:41 <+MaxieZ> amen
18:42 <@Catonic> it's just a bad situation in a bad town.
18:42 <@aestetix> What happens if cops get called on cops?
18:42 <@Catonic> there's like a zillion ways that could have gone wrong.
18:42 <@brimstone> aestetix: they bring donuts
18:42 <+Dagmar> aestetix: The "bad cops" almost instantly have a problem
18:42 <@aestetix> lol
18:42 <@Catonic> he was looking for someone they had a warrant on.
18:42 <+MaxieZ> aestetix: what happens or what's supposed to happen?
18:42 <+Dagmar> The "bad cops" have almost certainly not radioed in that they're doing something they shoudln't be.
18:43 <+Dagmar> So, the "other cops" come out, flanked by paperwork courtesy of the dispatcher.
18:43 <+Dagmar> The other cops then have a choice... they can be complicit in the wrongdoing, with a dispatcher not really giving them time to make up something convincing, or they can tell the bad cops to bugger off and sort things out properly.
18:44 <+MaxieZ> Going home...later
18:44 <@Catonic> I'm just really concerned when it comes to legal assemblies
18:44 <+Dagmar> Truly
18:44 <+Dagmar> My contact lenses aren't designed for absorbing tear gas
18:44 <+Dagmar> I'd have to replace htem
18:45 <+Dagmar> Sentence me to near-blindness for a week or more and I will definitely have some free time to generate enough phone calls and paperwork to make someone's life MUCH more hellish than mine will be
18:45 <@Catonic> 1st amendment... I understand that we have the right to freely assemble.
18:45 <+Dagmar> Exactly.
18:45 <+Dagmar> This "free speech zones" shit is nuts
18:46 <+Dagmar> Public spaces like parks and so on, you definitely have the right to freely assemble, particularly if you're not up to anything illegal
18:46 < eryc> i'd want them arrested if i was trying to hang out in the park
18:46 <+Dagmar> Wpw
18:47 <+Dagmar> The RNC has only managed about a 60% occupancy at their own convention
18:47 <+Dagmar> CNN just did a pan shot
18:47 <@Catonic> but where does it become constitutional rights vs rights reserved by the state, city, and so on?
18:47 <@Catonic> property law...
18:48 < TdC_VgA> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k
18:48 < TdC_VgA> hahah 60%
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18:49 <@Catonic> the craziest distortion of law is that the government cannot spy on us.
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18:49 <@Catonic> directly.
18:49 <@Catonic> but it can pay someone else to collect the information.
18:50 <@Catonic> or it can buy a copy of a database that someone else is already collecting.
18:50 <@Catonic> we have a right to privacy from the government, but not from each other.
18:52 <@Evilpig> http://www.founditemclothing.com/t-shirts/dicknose.html   fuse is blurring out dicknose off of this shirt
18:54 < TdC_VgA> "redheaded sasquash for jesus"
19:04 <+Dagmar> Some people should be drowned at a young age
19:05 <@scort> http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1220485672216.png
19:05 <+Dagmar> It would prevent them from complaining to me that they've got three MACs responding to the same ARP query... at home.
19:11 <@aestetix> Dagmar: some people should be drowned at any age.
19:12 <+Dagmar> Five minutes after I tell him his VLAN stuff is definitely messed up he says "the vlan config returned to defaults ... everybody is back on 1 lan ... thats probly half my whole problem"
19:14 <+Dagmar> Oh my
19:14 <+Dagmar> Bob Dole's been doing the BOtox
19:17 <+Dagmar> The thing that makes me want to cry is that he was getting a response back for 10.0.0.1 from three devices
19:17 <+Dagmar> One being his DSL modem (no big deal)
19:17 <+Dagmar> The other two being two interfaces on his router.
19:17 <+Dagmar> He actually assigned the same IP address to both interfaces on his router
19:19 <+Dagmar> God help us all
19:29 <+Dagmar> There's old women in the audience lookin bored lol
19:30 <+Dagmar>  I would genuinely enjoy seeing some of these people eaten by zombies
19:37 < AstralSin> jesus christ, firefox was just using 700MB of my RAM
19:37 < AstralSin> i thought they fixed that shit
19:37 <@brimstone> HAHAHA
19:38 <@brimstone> Dagmar | Run FF, and let's say it takes up 100Mb of RAM (which is way more than reality)
19:39 < AstralSin> well, at least that's what htop said, which can be misleading... much of that could have just been cached memory
19:39 < AstralSin> bbiab
19:39 < AstralSin> but FF definitely uses more than 100mb
19:39 <+Dagmar> memory fragmentation is a bitch
19:39 <+Dagmar> Close the browser once in a while
19:40 <+Dagmar> ...or holler at your OS vendor to build a memory defragger
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20:08 <+Dagmar> Newsflash: Mitt Romney thinks the Sun should rise in the West.
20:08 <+Dagmar> Oh and apparently he thinks we shouldn't give anyone constitutional rights
20:08 < AstralSin> he also eats poo
20:09 <+Dagmar> This is insane
20:09 <+Dagmar> lol
20:09 <+Dagmar> He just listed a bunch of shit HIS party was responsible for, and then says electing more of them would be _change_
20:11 <+Dagmar> Congratulations... he just argued against pornography in schools.
20:11 <+Dagmar> THere's only two things that can mean
20:11 <+Dagmar> Neither are sane
20:13 <+Dagmar> Oh GOD I have got to get a copy of this man's speech so I can subtitle it for Phreaknix
20:13 <+Dagmar> Holy motherfucking shit it's just a never-ending stream of easy targets
20:15 <+Dagmar> Wow.
20:15 <+Dagmar> I think he just declared a holy war against Islam
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20:20 <+Dagmar> rattle: You have GOT to see Mitt Romney's speech
20:20 <+Dagmar> It's like he's living in an alternate universe
20:48 < AstralSin> hah, Chrome has a DoS vulnerability that doesn't even require you to click a link, just hover over it
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21:04 <@scort> Those tempted to flash a laser skyward for a good laugh might want to think twice. In addition to potentially downing an aircraft, pranksters could get slapped with a $25,000 fine and/or 20 years in the clink. And officials are also considering prosecuting laser shining losers as domestic terrorists under the Patriot Act. Not something you want on your résumé.
21:11 < AstralSin> they'll have to find me first, bwahahahahaha!
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21:23 < I-MOD> scort, lol
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21:33  * polerin twitches
21:33 <@polerin> The RNC is cheap shot after cheapshot
21:33 <@polerin> Fear fear fear smear liberal fear fear fear smear smear
21:45 <@polerin> anyone know who just got ejected from the RNC?
21:45 <@polerin> hauled out by her arms?
21:46 <@scort> cliton?
21:46 <@polerin> no
21:46 <@scort> clinton*?
21:46 <@scort> oh
21:46 <@polerin> lol
21:47 <@polerin> lissa just made an ammusing comment
21:47 <@scort> wat
21:47 <@polerin> Imagine the consternation that would result from palin's grandchild being mixed.
21:47 <@polerin> (Not trying to say it will be, but ... dang that would be funny.)
21:50 <+Dagmar> I would need medical assistance to stop laughing
21:50 <+Dagmar> polerin: By the look of it she was one of the Code Pink people
21:50 <@polerin> wouldn't supprise me.  looked right from the back
21:50 <@polerin> they are awesome.
21:51 <@polerin> <3 Code Pink
21:51 <+Dagmar> They're hilarious
21:51 <+Dagmar> Ooooh so threatening they are
21:51 <@polerin> them and the puppitista's
21:53 <@polerin> and just now someone else?
21:54 <+Dagmar> I didn't catch it
21:54 <@polerin> The chants of "Drill baby drill" sorta belie the whole "McCain is for alternate energy" crap
21:54 <@polerin> I didn't either, lissa saw it
21:54 <@polerin> we are watching cbs.
21:54 <@polerin> errr
21:54 <@polerin> not cbs
21:54 <+Dagmar> I've got CNN recording at home but I missed recording Romney's bit
21:54 <@polerin> wtf.  PBS
21:54 <+Dagmar> I'll have to snag that from YouTube
21:54 <+Dagmar> You could probably get it on CSPAN as well
21:55 <@polerin> that assumes I get CSPAN :P
21:56 <@timoguin> fag
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21:56 <@polerin> :)
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21:56 <@timoguin> ? srs stfu who made you god?
21:57 <@polerin> timoguin: get it right.  If you're going to be like that use the right word.  It's Dyke.
21:57 <@timoguin> its homo trans faggot wannabe bitch with a dick actually
21:57 <@polerin> faggot assumes that I want to sleep with guys, which I can assure you that is eminetly untrue
21:58 <@timoguin> this place has gone to shit since ware left anyway~
21:58 <@scort> lollololo
21:58 <@timoguin> ;)
21:58 <@timoguin> pz
21:58 <@polerin> as for bitch, well, cant argue with you there.
21:58 <@polerin> never claimed to be nice.
21:58 <@scort> polerin, shit on his face
21:58 <@polerin> I find it interesting that I'm not the one who's slinging insults
21:59 <@polerin> but on another note, what the hell is your damage anyway.
21:59 <@polerin> Dagmar: http://twincities.indymedia.org/2008/sep/breaking-rnc-8-charged-conspiracy-riot-furtherance-terrorism
22:00 <+Dagmar> Read it
22:00 <+Dagmar> I've been hitting that site every couple of hours
22:00 <@polerin> nods
22:00 <+Dagmar> You'll find me brazenly calling them idiots in the comments sometimes
22:00 <@polerin> I haven't hit it since earlier this morning
22:00 <@polerin> lol
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22:00 <@polerin> please do, they are full of shit sometimes
22:01 <+Dagmar> If half the stuff in the affidavit leading up to the search warrant are correct, the RNC Welcoming Committee people are fucked
22:01 <+Dagmar> Otherwise, it's one hell of a frame job
22:01 <+Dagmar> Dig around in there and find the affidavit.  It's pretty damning
22:02 <+Dagmar> Mind you, most of the shit might well have just been a complete fiction.
22:02 <+Dagmar> If they can prove it was made up, some cops are in some _serious_ shit
22:02 <@polerin> well, I note that a good bit of that is manuals
22:02 <+Dagmar> They could have busted those guys *weeks* ago on Conspiracy charges
22:02 <+Dagmar> *should* have actually
22:02 <+Dagmar> A good bit of what is what?
22:03 <@polerin> cursory overview.
22:03 <@polerin> give me a second to really read
22:03 <+Dagmar> Okay
22:03 <+Dagmar> The affidavit has detailed stuff about who was doing what, when, and what they were planning on doing
22:04 <+Dagmar> "Hey kids, it's fun to *talk* about throwing molotovs and flattening tires as a joke, but when you _plan to do it, you're fucking yourself in the ear._"
22:05 <@polerin> OH no Hollowed out puppets!  Urine and Feces!
22:05 <+Dagmar> Just the same, the cops WAY overreacted all this week
22:05  * polerin grumbles
22:05 <+Dagmar> polerin: Once you get past the part that was basically copied as the search warrant you get some grisly details of *why* hollowed-out puppets were on that list
22:05 <@polerin> ...  Xbox gaming systems and mp3 players?!
22:06 <+Dagmar> Because they can be used as communications devices (XBox Linux) and audio instruction manuals
22:07 <@Corydon76-dig> Oh, terrible.  People are communicating?  Terrorists, the lot of them...
22:07 <@polerin> http://twincities.indymedia.org/files/affadavit0903-sm.pdf
22:07 <@polerin> btw
22:08 <+Dagmar> Yeah it gets pretty ugly after the end of the warrant
22:08 <+Dagmar> It could easily be argued that those guys, based on that affidavit, should have been arrested weeks ago, which would have avoided a lot of the drama this week
22:09 <+Dagmar> Of course, it also serves the Republicans that there *was* a lot of drama
22:09 <+Dagmar> Like, giving instructional seminars on how to build blockades and bust windows without getting caught MORE than qualifies as conspiracy
22:09 <+Dagmar> ...although the word "terrorism" has exactly zero place in it
22:09 <@polerin> how to build blocades?
22:10 <+Dagmar> Yes.  Like I said, read all the way through the affidavit where they start talking about the results of their surveillance on people
22:10 <@polerin> building blocades isn't neccisarily illegal
22:10 <@polerin> :P
22:10 <+Dagmar> Exactly.  Except for the fire stuff, it's all misdemeanor shit
22:10 <+Dagmar> Blocking a street, impeding traffic, that's a misdemenor.
22:11 <+Dagmar> Not exactly major shakes.
22:11 <@polerin> the Caltrops thing is concerning, except for the fact it was probably discarded
22:11 <@polerin> the fact that we have discussed doing something does not indicate our intent to do it
22:12 <+Dagmar> Yeah but again, that's not what the affidavit says was the purpose of the discussion
22:12 <@polerin> "Using marching bands to create noise so officers are unable to hear commands"
22:12 <+Dagmar> Discussing specifcally how to do it _at_ the RNC.  That's a conspiracy charge.
22:12  * polerin tries to stifle laughter
22:12 <+Dagmar> Dude you're nowhere near the parts I'm talking about yet
22:12 <@polerin> I know I know
22:12 <@polerin> I'm giving it a thourough reading
22:13 <@polerin> and being distracted by the convention
22:13 <@polerin> Palin was super super super nasty
22:13 <@polerin> virtually every other word was an attack
22:13 <+Dagmar> Lemme pull out a highlight for you
22:14 <+Dagmar> "During many of these scnearios, the use of water bottles as mock Molotov cocktails were utilized.  These "mock" molotov cocktails were thrown at vehicles, buildings and streets.  Additionally, a simulated RNC delegate vehicle was targeted by throwing tocks at it, slashing the tires, and attempting to overturn the vehicle"
22:15 <+Dagmar> "Also during this camp, according to this law enforcement agency, an individual discussed the use of large street puppets to conceal and transport materials such as Molotov cocktails, bricks, caltrops, shields and lockboxes.  This individual also stated long bamboo poles used for the poppets could be used as spears and utilized to drive back police."
22:16 <+Dagmar> Of course, it's altogether possible that "an individual" might well have been a provocateur or the other undercover agent
22:16 <@polerin> That is actually a fairly common claim on the police side
22:17 <@polerin> I've been involved with the puppitistas. it's bs in general
22:17 <@polerin> they don't want that kind of shit anywhere near their art
22:17 <+Dagmar> Good for them
22:18 <+Dagmar> That doesn't mean they can't fall prey to evil plans (of either side)
22:18 <@polerin> oh I know :P
22:18 <+Dagmar> Ya wonder why Dru and I were always super-paranoid about the cops in re to 2600 meetings?
22:18 <+Dagmar> It's cause we're familiar with this kind of shit
22:18 <+Dagmar> ...and we think like deviants.
22:18 <@polerin> and caltrops are not just "a device with nails or other sharp objects protruding"
22:18 <@polerin> they are a specific type of that device :P
22:18  * polerin grumbles
22:19 <+Dagmar> This is why we were always so damn serious about "THOU SHALT NOT BE DOING HEINOUS ILLEGAL SHIT AT MEETINGS, NOOBS"
22:19 <@polerin> oh yes, trust me I understand
22:19 <@polerin> lol
22:19 <@polerin> I'm parinoid
22:19 <+Dagmar> The moment you start doing illegal shit for the sake of personal gain, etc etc, you basically hang up the "kids exploring technology" overcoat and invite this kind of interpretation of your actionc
22:20 <+Dagmar> These kids appear to be morons.
22:20 <+Dagmar> Highly-motivated, but still morons
22:20 <@polerin> not neccisarily
22:20 <@polerin> consider this group for example
22:21 <@polerin> think about how you could phrase something about most of the members of this group
22:21 <+Dagmar> They could get more done with ONE incident of mass arrests and unclean seizure warrants (which the greyfaces are more than ready to provide for them) than in 10 years of throwing molotov cocktails
22:21 <+Dagmar> All they'd need to do was acutally keep their noses 100% clean.
22:22 <@polerin> .. you realize taht this is not the first mass arrest right?
22:22 <+Dagmar> ..but if half the shit on this affidavit can be substantiated, they're screwed
22:22 <@polerin> :P
22:22 <+Dagmar> I know it's not
22:22 <+Dagmar> Hell, every time I go to Phreaknic I'm still putting a 3-5% chance we're all going to jail
22:22 <@polerin> "During the period of XX/XX to XX/XX  So and so  Procured several fire arms with ammunition"  "Has pamplets and information on how to to build bombs/attack websites/hax0r your mamma/whatever"
22:22 <@polerin> etc
22:22 <+Dagmar> ...just because god only knows what kind of technology might turn up that would get the authorities in a pani
22:22 <+Dagmar> c
22:23 <@polerin> "During this convention, there were multiple classes on the subject of breaking into computer networks"
22:23 <+Dagmar> We stay out of trouble because we're super-ultra-mega clear to everyone that destructive behaviour will win you a butt whoopin' WAY before the cops can get ahold of you
22:23 <@polerin> oh come on :P
22:24 <@polerin> if the cops came for me with all my poltical stuff, and some of the documentation I have in here, it'd look bad
22:24 <+Dagmar> Look bad is one thing
22:24 <+Dagmar> We just about *always* "look bad".  Let's face it.
22:24 <@polerin> that's what I'm saying
22:24 <@polerin> same thing with motivated protestors, especially of the anarchist flavors
22:24 <+Dagmar> Now, if you had a pile of people's financial information on you and started trying to trade it to other people, I'd beat your ass like an unwanted catholic kid
22:25 <+Dagmar> This is also apparently the difference between us and the guys in MSP
22:25 <+Dagmar> People started smashing windows and no one stepped up to say "STOP THAT SHIT RIGHT NOW"
22:26 <@polerin> your assuming people actually saw them, and they weren't in and out
22:26 <+Dagmar> I don't care how pissed those hippies would have gotten at me.  I'd have grabbed one of the fuckers by the scruff of his neck and ridden him to the ground to turn him over to the police, _after_ being sure he wasn't a cop in disguuse
22:26 <@polerin> also, that they weren't smashed as a result of something else (throwing rocks at cops who are shooting at you with rubber bullets comes to mind)
22:26 <+Dagmar> I've seen video of one of the windows being smashed.
22:26 <@polerin> (which I'm not against)
22:26 <+Dagmar> Dumbasses just stood there and gaped
22:27 <+Dagmar> Window-breaker in a bike helmet just scampered off.
22:27 <+Dagmar> He'd have never gotten away from me
22:28 <+Dagmar> <-- REALISTIC anarchist
22:28 <+Dagmar> Sometimes, you *do* have to override the personal rights of others to keep dimwits from burning the everything down
22:28 <@polerin> so lockdowns?
22:28 <@polerin> barricading intersections?
22:29 <+Dagmar> By "lockdowns" you mean what?
22:29 <@polerin> uh, exactly what the police mean
22:29 <+Dagmar> Dude, you've just given me a noun and zero context or explanation.
22:29 <@polerin> you chain yourselves togeather in ways that are hard and time consuming to break
22:29 <@polerin> typing it out :P
22:29 <+Dagmar> Okay, so why
22:29 <@polerin> because it meens that they can't just come in and start dragging you off one by one
22:29 <+Dagmar> I can see doing that to protect a permitted assembly
22:30 <+Dagmar> I mean, you've got a responsibility to not just cave in to an illegal arrest
22:30 <@polerin> no, actually you don't according to the law
22:30 <+Dagmar> It's hideously difficult to put any hard and fast rules to it tho
22:30 <+Dagmar> Fuck the law.
22:30 <@polerin> you have a resonsibility to obey whatever a cop tells you ;p
22:30 <+Dagmar> There is a different between illegal/legal and right/wrong.
22:31 <+Dagmar> If what the cop is telling you is going to result in a serious problem later on, you've got an obligation to make that clear to them
22:31 <@polerin> they aren't going to listen at a protest :P
22:31 <+Dagmar> If ya gotta be arrested, so be it, but at least you gave him the chance to make the right choice based on the information you have
22:31 <@polerin> hell, they won't even listen at a silent dance party ;P
22:32 <@polerin> not to mention arguing with a police officer can be construed as resisting arrest
22:32 <@polerin> Cheers, and have fun with the tazer and pepper spray ;P
22:32 <+Dagmar> A clean concience is very important to me.
22:33 <+Dagmar> Like the Harry Harrison's books explain, if you're going to make your own rules, they have to be better and more stringent than the system you just left behind.
22:33 <+Dagmar> Anything else is just being an animal.
22:33 <@polerin> ;P
22:33 <@polerin> i'm not dissagreeing
22:33 <+Dagmar> I'm serious.
22:33 <+Dagmar> Ah okay
22:33 <@polerin> I'm saying what you are talking about isn't going to be effective, though I understand why you say it
22:34 <+Dagmar> Yeah, but lets say you just witnessed an assault
22:34 <+Dagmar> The cop on the scene decides it was *YOU* but you just saw the actual assailant running west.
22:34 <+Dagmar> Me, I'd haul ass and tackle the real assailant, regardless of what the cop said, and let the judge sort it out later.
22:35 <@polerin> personally a bunch of the materiel in here is unsupprising.
22:35 <+Dagmar> Yeah, but a lot of it is pretty damning
22:35 <+Dagmar> If they can produce proof of it, those kids are both idiots and in a heap of trouble.
22:35 <@polerin> I've read a large ammount of similar things, ie stuff on unarresting, resisting police formations, etc
22:36 <@polerin> bah, manuals are bullshit evidence
22:36 <+Dagmar> If the kids can prove that such things did NOT take place, even a few of them, the prosecution is fucked, and the cops are in serious, serious shit.
22:36 <@polerin> knowing thins isn't illegal
22:36 <@polerin> using police scanners isn't illegal
22:37 <+Dagmar> Like, one video tape of one of those meetings showing that the kids were planning on not doing anything destructive, like say the bit about the cocktail-throwing session...
22:37 <+Dagmar> If that didn't actually happen and the kids can prove it, hooboy
22:37 <@polerin> See
22:37 <@polerin> Everything I read in there said they discussed doing these thigns
22:37 <@polerin> I've discusssed doing far worse than that
22:37 <@polerin> discussion isn't illegal, nor is it conspiracy.
22:37 <+Dagmar> Discussing it is one thing.  Planning to do it is Conspiracy.
22:37 <@polerin> Agreement to do something is.
22:38 <+Dagmar> Conspiracy is a much easier charge to make stick.
22:38 <@polerin> planning in and of it'self is not
22:38 <+Dagmar> Putting the word "terrorism" in there I think might have been pushing their luck tho
22:38 <+Dagmar> You're mistaken.
22:38 <@polerin> because planning doesn't imply that you are going to do something
22:38 <@polerin> just that you're considering it
22:38 <+Dagmar> If you plan to rob a bank, you are guilty of Conpiracy to Commit
22:38 <@polerin> hell I've planned out how to rob a bank.
22:39 <@polerin> no way in hell I'd do it
22:39 <+Dagmar> Yes, but your goal was not to rob it.
22:39 <@polerin> their goal wasn't neccisarily to do the more violent things
22:39 <+Dagmar> From the description in the affidavit, this went way beyond theoretical
22:39 <@polerin> bah
22:40 <+Dagmar> Even trying to plan something and realizing you can't do it is Conspiracy
22:40 <@polerin> most of the planning stuff I saw in the affidavit would be stuff I would do
22:40 <@polerin> I'm not saying they realized they couldn't
22:40 <+Dagmar> Why the hell would you mock up throwing firebombs?
22:40 <+Dagmar> I mean, seriously.
22:41 <@polerin> these are revolutionary anarchists.  Just because they want to know and to spread the knowledge of how to do soemthing doesn't mean they are going to use it at a specific point in time
22:41 <+Dagmar> I'm not saying the kids are "damned, damned, damned"
22:41 <+Dagmar> I'm saying this affidavit ups the ante quite a bit
22:41 <+Dagmar> At this point, ONE side or the otehr is in some deep, deep doodoo
22:41 <@polerin> meh.  there are only a few things in it that are serious, most of the rest of that kind of  thing you'd find in any serious non-violent protest planning group too
22:42 <@polerin> the kids are fucked
22:42 <@polerin> not because they did anything wrong per say
22:42 <+Dagmar> Blockades are fine, IMGO.
22:42 <+Dagmar> s/IMGO/IMHO/;
22:42 <+Dagmar> They'll piss people off, but not do much more than make a mess.
22:42 <@polerin> but because the jury is goign to hear "anarchist" and think "violent evil"
22:42 <+Dagmar> Firebombs, on the other hand... those are completely off the menu.
22:42 <@polerin> actually the intent behind blockades is to impede police movement most of the time
22:42 <+Dagmar> Yeah, and I'm fine with that, considering what they were expecting
22:43 <@polerin> and what they got :P
22:43 <+Dagmar> Slowing someone down doesn't entirely endanger life and limb
22:43 <+Dagmar> They didn't even need to plan that much tho
22:43 <@polerin> no comment
22:43 <@polerin> anyway, I'm going to bed
22:43 <+Dagmar> They would have gotten WAY more mileage out of this discussing just how to neutralize the effects of teargas, lawerly stuff for when they're inevitably illegally arrested, etc
22:43 <@polerin> There is some stuff in there that is going to be dangerous, mostly the IED related things
22:44 <@polerin> so you neutralize the effects of teargas.  ... what next
22:44 <@polerin> that's not a plan, that's a reaction.
22:45 <@polerin> if you just do that, you're going to be picked off
22:45 <+Dagmar> So you get arrested, and very justifiably let free lawyers rip the city of MSP a new asshole, knowing you did absolutely NOTHING wrong.
22:45 <+Dagmar> You didn't do anything, there's plenty of video around showing you didn't, and you'd be out by noon on Wednesday at the worst
22:45 <+Dagmar> If they actually planned this destructive stuff, they fucked up large
22:45 <@polerin> except if you look at the history of these cases, the people genrally don't get vindicated... they get charged with things that are completely ancillary to their orignal request
22:46 <@polerin> err
22:46 <@polerin> arrest, not request
22:46 <+Dagmar> Oh no
22:46 <+Dagmar> 2004 they had mass arrests and the cops made up a bunch of lies, and the judges saw the video and turned people loose as quickly as they could
22:46 <@polerin> and for their troubles the people who were arrested got what?
22:47 <@polerin> and you are mischaracterizing the speed with which things happened
22:47 <+Dagmar> They got some city officials in some serious shit
22:47 <@polerin> many of them had to come back for later dates :p
22:47 <@polerin> are you referring to quebec btw?
22:47 <@polerin> or one of the other protests
22:47 <+Dagmar> The Quebec thing was awesome
22:47 <+Dagmar> Provocateurs, stone cold busted.
22:47 <@polerin> more than that
22:47 <@polerin> and not so awesome
22:48 <@polerin> the police raids prior too?
22:48 <+Dagmar> What about them
22:48 <@polerin> you know, where they were clubbing people in their sleeping bags?
22:48 <@polerin> leaving them needing serious medical attention?
22:48 <+Dagmar> You might as well hold someone responsible for lions breaking into the back yard
22:48 <@polerin> and the courts didn't give them shit
22:48 <@polerin> ...
22:48 <+Dagmar> Those people either needed better lawyers, or guns to shoot the invaders with
22:49 <@polerin> yes, becose polce officers aren't sentient or trained to uhm.. uphold the law :P
22:49 <+Dagmar> I fail to see what point you're aiming for with this
22:49 <@polerin> what I'm saying is that the law reguarly shits on protestors
22:49 <+Dagmar> Of course it does.
22:49 <+Dagmar> Protesters are very often incredibly stupid.
22:49 <@polerin> so, they fight back
22:49 <@polerin> sometimes violently.
22:49 <+Dagmar> "The man" wrote the rules of the game.
22:49 <@polerin> not my personal choice, but .. yeah
22:50 <+Dagmar> Learn the rules, then force them to play by your rules.
22:50 <+Dagmar> 100% transparency.
22:50 <+Dagmar> 100% recordings.
22:50 <+Dagmar> No lies may escape.
22:50 <@polerin> you're not going to get a police force to play by your rules
22:50 <@polerin> doesn't happen :P
22:50 <@polerin> anyway
22:50 <@polerin> BED
22:50 <+Dagmar> You do if you hold a geniunely peaceful protest.
22:50 <+Dagmar> So there.
22:50 <@polerin> uh.. yeah..
22:51 <+Dagmar> Tomorrow, go read The Art of War.
22:51 <+Dagmar> It's short.
22:51 <@polerin> only if you go read the book of 5 rings :)
22:51 <+Dagmar> OH!  I remember a bit of that one
22:51 <@polerin> because cops riding horses into a non-violent croud is so playing by the protestors rules (the cops weren't even repremanded)
22:52 <+Dagmar> This would be when it would be appropriate to link arms.
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22:52 <+Dagmar> And sue, sue, sue.
22:52  * polerin gives up
22:52 <@polerin> you're assuming that didn't happen :P
22:52 <+Dagmar> Find a nice ambulance chaser to handle the personal injury civil suit
22:52 <@polerin> the croud was dissobeying orders to disperse
22:53 <+Dagmar> I'm pretty sure the last part didn't involve a more ruthless ambulance chaser or your tone would be differnt.
22:53 <@polerin> you know...  disperse from an area with fences on three sides and a line of riot cops on the 4th
22:53 <+Dagmar> Look at more of that footage from MSp this week
22:53 <+Dagmar> The cops in at least one instance gave orders to disperse to people who were effectively in a canyon, then chased them to the end of it and performed a mass arrest
22:53 <@polerin> so because they weren't obeying, the officers called a charge to disperse them :P
22:54 <+Dagmar> Giving someone an order they can't follow isn't going to go well with a judge
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22:54 <+Dagmar> I'll put this another way
22:54 <@polerin> and yet it didn't matter
22:54 <@polerin> anyway
22:54 <+Dagmar> Feel free to just *give up*
22:54 <@polerin> oh like hell I would
22:54 <@polerin> lol
22:54 <+Dagmar> Then you have the right mindset.
22:54 <@polerin> you know me, when the hell have I ever just *dropped* something
22:55 <@polerin> I just don't expected the law to protect me from it's foot soldiers.
22:55 <@polerin> I expect to be put into a jail, problably in the mens side
22:55 <@polerin> probably even
22:55 <+Dagmar> You realize that 5 rings is just about combat, right?
22:55 <@polerin> actually it's not just about combat :)
22:56 <+Dagmar> Well, not "just" but jsut about all of it is
22:56 <@polerin> if you read it carefully you will understand it is about tactics, and about the doing of something
22:56 <+Dagmar> Art of War is to a large degree about avoiding combat and still winning
22:56 <@polerin> "Many times you will beat a man without even fighting him, because he will look in your eyes and know you to be a formidable opponent."
22:57 <@polerin> (not exact wording but close enough)
22:57 <@polerin> he also says to take everything he says about personal combat and extrapolate it to situations involving large ammounts of men
22:57 <@polerin> to think about how it applies
22:57 <+Dagmar> Of particular interest..."If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
22:57 <+Dagmar>     irritate him.  Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
22:57 <+Dagmar> "
22:58 <+Dagmar> There's nothing wrong with waiting for the cops to do something pretty damn bad, knowing you can take the video footage to court and put some bitches out of jobs.
22:58 <+Dagmar> I'll take some tear gas and rubber bullets for that
22:58 <@polerin> that's assuming that you don't have the video of it confiscated then lost
22:59 <+Dagmar> That would be bad planning.
22:59 <+Dagmar> We have technology.
22:59 <+Dagmar> The soluti0on to that would be cantenna repeaters, or barring that, CDPD card.
22:59 <@polerin> which can be confiscated
22:59 <@polerin> before the protests
22:59 <+Dagmar> Good luck turning off the entire cellular network
22:59 <@polerin> ie, the iWitness people
23:00 <+Dagmar> Oh yeah I know part of the purpose of the searches was to target the people who were in part responsible for testimony that the cops were lying in 2004.
23:00 <+Dagmar> No doubt about that.
23:00 <@polerin> not just to target
23:00 <@polerin> but to disable
23:00 <+Dagmar> I am specifically stipulating that by planning anything illegal, they shot themselves in the foot.
23:01 <@polerin> different group
23:01 <+Dagmar> I know that, you know that.
23:01 <+Dagmar> The press, they don't care.
23:01 <@polerin> I'm not talking about the press :P
23:01 <+Dagmar> The iWitness guys will probably have an easy win
23:01 <@polerin> the MSM doesn't give a shit, and hasn't since the 80's
23:01 <+Dagmar> THere will be some serious backlash for arresting media and legal observers.
23:01 <@polerin> but how many other's wont, because they weren't there to document the crap?
23:02 <+Dagmar> Again with the defeatism
23:02 <@polerin> the hell there will, they've been doing it for years
23:02 <@polerin> i'm not saying give up
23:02 <@polerin> I'm saying that I've heard it before
23:02 <+Dagmar> If you're that convinced the situation is unwinnable, you're either a pansy, or you should be making cocktails.
23:02 <@polerin> and the only thing that is going to make a difference is the net
23:02 <@polerin> and when did I say it's unwinnable
23:02 <+Dagmar> Dude, whadddaya think a cdpd card is?
23:03 <+Dagmar> You can live video stream over a Toshiba Libretto
23:03 <@polerin> I've been saying that you can't win it through the courts or the mainstream media
23:03 <@polerin> yes, I know what you're saying, but you have to have someone and/or somewhere to catch the video
23:03 <+Dagmar> Well, you probably *could* in it through the courts, but it's a hell of a lot easier now that we've got YouTube to make it so that NO ONE can evade the truth of things
23:03 <@polerin> not to mention with a convention in town the network is going to be congested
23:03 <+Dagmar> s/in it/win it/;
23:04 <+Dagmar> Now you're describing a network congestion problem.
23:04 <+Dagmar> Trivial.
23:04 <@polerin> not neccisarily
23:04 <@polerin> remeber, you cannot trust that you will have a full loadout of equipment
23:05 <@polerin> given that the police have been targeting documentation groups
23:05 <+Dagmar> Who does?
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23:05 <@scort> fuck da police
23:05 <+Dagmar> No one planning on making a fault-tolerant network assumes all of it will work all the time.
23:06 <+Dagmar> Hell, most people assume things will be operating at 1/2 or 1/3 of it's full functionality, just to be sure of how much abuse the system can take
23:06 <@polerin> i'm saying that you can't assume you'll even have a network
23:06 <+Dagmar> Don't need one.  Cantenna.
23:06 <@polerin> to WHAT
23:06 <@scort> fuck da police
23:06 <+Dagmar> Someone else.
23:06 <+Dagmar> Who in turn sends to someone else.
23:06 <@polerin> what are you going to connect to if your equipment has been confiscated
23:06 <+Dagmar> And so on, and so on.
23:06 <@scort> fuck da police!!!!!!
23:06 <@polerin> that's all I'm saying
23:07 <@polerin> so, if yo ucan't connect out, still film
23:07 <@polerin> try to protect it as you can
23:07 <+Dagmar> Dude, for example, do you seriously think that if the feds came down to Phreaknic and took everytthing more complex than a digital watch away, that it would slow us down for longer than it takes to raid wal-mart?
23:07 <@polerin> ie, film in camera and offload to laptop in the bag, etc
23:07 <@polerin> well, you're also talking about a protest and a hacker con :)
23:07 <@polerin> different strokes, different folks
23:08 <+Dagmar> Dis would be why wees is impotant peoples
23:08 <@scort> fuck da police!!!!!!
23:08 <+Dagmar> We can make the packets flow
23:08 <@polerin> oh, i'm not dissagreeing
23:08 <+Dagmar> ...and we generally (well, usually) smell better than hippies.
23:08 <+Dagmar> For sure we dress better.
23:08 <+Dagmar> 8D
23:08 < I-MOD> we can also make the packets halt...with certain connections
23:08 <+Dagmar> Yeah but that's bo-ring.
23:09 <@Catonic> XD
23:09 <@polerin> i'm just saying that assumptions about equipment is pretty tentitive
23:09 <+Dagmar> Making a network unstoppable is WAY more fun
23:09 <@scort> fuck da police!!!!!!
23:10 < I-MOD> scort, stfu
23:10 <@Catonic> Dagmar: how lany gig-e links makes an unstoppable network?
23:10 <@polerin> Dagmar: if you're so awesome go help the indymedia people at the next demo
23:10 <@polerin> :P
23:10 < I-MOD> enough that they can't kill them all at once
23:10 <@polerin> I'm sure if you go to the techmeet you can get involved
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23:10 <@polerin> hehe
23:10 <+Dagmar> polerin: THat would involve driving a long ways to support people who arne't paying me, and whom I don't particularly respect
23:11 <+Dagmar> If they started talking about smashing shit, they would soon be very unhappy that I came.
23:11 <+Dagmar> I have a nasty tendency to hit people.
23:11 <+Dagmar> hehe
23:11 <@polerin> wow with the assumptions ;P
23:11 <+Dagmar> It would not be the first time I'd been brought to something I wasn't going to stay for
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23:12  * I-MOD can just imagine
23:12 <+Dagmar> From what I'm seeing and have been seeing on the indymedia site, they're dumbasses
23:13 <+Dagmar> There was even chatter ABOUT barricades and tearing some shit up on the indymedia site
23:13 <+Dagmar> All I could think at the time was "dumbasses"
23:13 <@polerin> yes, by the commenters most of the time :)
23:14 <@polerin> indymedia doesn't log.  not saying that ip info isn't obtained in some other way, but they don't log
23:14 <@polerin> on purpose
23:14 <+Dagmar> Smart move or some of them would have gotten thmselves into trouble
23:14 <+Dagmar> Of course, that doesn't offest the fact that they're still thick
23:14 <@polerin> what they don't have can't be supponeaed
23:14 <@polerin> or however it's spelled
23:14 <@polerin> too tired to give a shit
23:15 <+Dagmar> Yeah, but if the cops needed an excuse to go pop someone else,  they would have had it
23:15 <@polerin> they are explicity anti-police
23:15 <+Dagmar> This, above and beyond the fact that it became clear early on that the people running twincities.indymedia.org had "unclean hands"
23:16 <+Dagmar> Police-neutral is the way to go.
23:16 <+Dagmar> If you're anti-police, you will alienate what could be your best allies.
23:16 <+Dagmar> Insiders.
23:16 <@polerin> when was the last time you heard a story where the police said "yeah those police were full of shit, etc etc etc"
23:17 <+Dagmar> http://mpdenforcer20.blogspot.com/
23:17 <+Dagmar> Read it.
23:17 <+Dagmar> Theres's some cops right there who are fed up as fuck with corruption in the Memphis Police Department.
23:17 <@polerin> corruption isn't the same as police vs protestors :P
23:17 <+Dagmar> Read that blog.
23:17 <+Dagmar> Seriously.
23:18 <+Dagmar> They're pushing the line about discussing live cases in a few spots, but they're _really_ rather clearly fed up with anything that's not actually by the letter and book
23:18 <+Dagmar> "Every courthouse in America is well versed on the importance of free speech, except in Memphis, Tennessee."
23:19 <+Dagmar> If guys like that acutally trusted that protest organizers were going to be spotless, _they'd turn_
23:19 <+Dagmar> So... what kind of utility do you think knowing in advance whether or not the police were going to deliberately try to provoke something would be?
23:19 <+Dagmar> It would be so full of win you'd have to add extra letters to 'win'/.
23:20 <+Dagmar> Everyone is a potential ally until they are proving they're not.
23:20 <+Dagmar> That's in Art of War somewhere, but not worded like a git
23:21 <@polerin> actually, I think most of the protestors assume that the police are going to do something at pretty much every opportunity
23:21 <@polerin> they'd rather be happily supprised :P
23:25 <+Dagmar> I like surpises
23:26 <@polerin> I note there's nothing about that transwoman being beat to a bloody pulp in memphis in the blog
23:26 <@polerin> anyway
23:26 <@polerin> I'm about to waffleface
23:26 <@polerin> night
23:30 <@Catonic> waffleface.. lol
23:33 <@sdodson> put it in her mouth
23:33 <@sdodson> waffleface?
23:55 <@someninjamaster> when you fall asleep on a keyboard
23:55 <@someninjamaster> and it leaves a waffle print on your face
23:57 <@someninjamaster> ha http://www.questionablecontent.net/
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