--- Log opened Sun Apr 13 00:00:08 2008 --- Day changed Sun Apr 13 2008 00:00 <@Corydon76-dig> so -1 is always in order, and strncpy needs the last byte preset to '\0' 00:00 <@Corydon76-dig> We typically use ast_copy_string which acts like strlcpy 00:00 <+coil> hi 00:00 -!- coil [i=mist3r@stoned.unixnerd.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:03 <@sdodson> tzanger: I didn't mean that I had anything against C. Just that I've not written any C outside of my classes. 00:04 <@macogw> sdodson: neo gets annoyed with me for not writing much of anything outside my classes 00:05 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: do you know the history of Gaim? 00:05 <@Corydon76-dig> An Auburn student wrote Gaim to teach himself how to use GTK 00:05 <@macogw> Corydon76-dig: what do you mean? that it was called GTK aol instant messenger then they got ticked at them so it was gaim then they trademarked aim and yelled at them and sent lawyers after them so now its pidgin? 00:06 <@Corydon76-dig> It was always called gaim until it was renamed pidgin 00:06 <@Corydon76-dig> GTK is the toolkit in which Gaim is written 00:06 <@macogw> are you sure? i read it was gtk aol instant messenger and aol told them to change it 00:06 <@Corydon76-dig> It stands for Gimp Tool Kit 00:06 <@macogw> i know that 00:07 <@tzanger> sdodson: understood 00:07 <@Corydon76-dig> Well, I can ask Mark... he (the original author) is the founder and CTO of the company I work for 00:07 <@macogw> there are a few big things id like to write, but dont have the time or know C well enough to do...that might mean using Python with C bindings just to get it done 00:08 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: you're probably not yet at the point where programming flows for any language 00:08 <@sdodson> I don't see any reason to write anything other than software that interacts directly with hardware in C. 00:09 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: speed, usually 00:09 <@Corydon76-dig> (of the resulting code, not in terms of development speed) 00:09 <@macogw> Corydon76-dig: java? 00:09 <@sdodson> I don't see any reason to write anything other than software that interacts directly with hardware in C and you've actually determined that you have speed problems. 00:10 <@sdodson> and/or 00:10 <@macogw> sdodson: Ruby implemented in C is slower than JRuby 00:10 <@Corydon76-dig> If you use Ruby, you have speed problems 00:10 <@macogw> ruby's C implementation is SLOW 00:10 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: what other implementations are there? 00:11 <@macogw> JRuby is the Java implementation 00:11 <@macogw> there's a Haskell one as well, i think...that's supposed to be extremely fast 00:11 <@Corydon76-dig> Heh, two levels of abstraction 00:11 <@Corydon76-dig> since Java is typically written in C 00:12 <@Corydon76-dig> or would that count as 3 layers? 00:12 <@macogw> yet it somehow turns out faster than the one done in C. i think id hate to see how that was implemented...though im rather curious as to how it was managed 00:13 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: Well, you have to consider the possibility that the guys who wrote the original Ruby code were primarily interested in functionality, not speed 00:13 <@macogw> oh...is there a difference in functionality? 00:13 <@Corydon76-dig> whereas JRuby was probably heavily optimized, because they figured Java would be slow 00:14 <@sdodson> Bad Corydon76-dig, stop assuming Java is slow. 00:14 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: probably no difference in functionality 00:14 -!- wontonjoe [n=sh4wn@host-63-238-55-157.apid.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: the difference is design goals 00:14 <@macogw> sdodson: he didnt. he said the people who wrote it probably did. 00:14 <@macogw> i see 00:15 <@Corydon76-dig> Postgres used to be slow as dirt, pre-6.5 00:15 * macogw puts the noob cap back on and listens to the teachers 00:15 <@Corydon76-dig> And then the developers went through some heavy optimization processes, and now Postgres is as fast as MySQL 00:15 <@macogw> scales better too, right? 00:16 <@Corydon76-dig> Depends on what you're doing 00:16 <@macogw> is postgres the one with really nice automagic tuning functions? 00:16 <@Corydon76-dig> For OLPC, MySQL still rules. For DSS, you want the flexibility of Postgres 00:17 <@Corydon76-dig> oops, OLTP 00:17 <@macogw> ^^ 00:17 <@sdodson> oltp? 00:17 <@sdodson> ya 00:17 <@Corydon76-dig> OnLine Transaction Processing 00:17 <@sdodson> was wondering wtf olpc was 00:17 <@macogw> sdodson: olpc is the one laptop per child project 00:17 <@sdodson> Right, but in the context of databases. And DSS? 00:17 <@macogw> couldnt figure why the little laptops needed a db though 00:18 <@Corydon76-dig> I forget the acronym, actually 00:18 <@sdodson> I'm sure there's tons of sqlite on the OLPC 00:18 <@Corydon76-dig> OLTP is about lots of little reads and writes 00:18 <@Corydon76-dig> DSS is about massive joins and reporting capabilities 00:18 <@sdodson> dimensional data I imagine, essentially warehouses 00:18 <@Corydon76-dig> Right, data warehousing 00:18 <@macogw> hehehe 00:18 <@sdodson> decision support system 00:19 <@Corydon76-dig> That's it 00:19 <@sdodson> ie: reducing gigabytes of data into a little fuel guage so the VP knows how well the business is going. 00:19 <@Corydon76-dig> Most databases excel at DSS and suck at OLTP 00:19 <@Corydon76-dig> MySQL is generally the opposite, though they've made inroads on DSS 00:19 <@macogw> in databases class the professor said "if you're asked if you can build a data warehouse, say yes. it's just a buzz word that means database, except you can charge extra for it because it's a buzzword" 00:20 <@sdodson> I'd smack your professor. 00:20 <@sdodson> Data warehouses are an entirely different concept. 00:20 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: data warehouse is more about the experience that you have in building the kinds of reports that are needed 00:20 <@macogw> Corydon76-dig: wouldnt that have to do with your SQL-fu? 00:21 <@sdodson> You may end up with many many copies of data for the sake of making it easy to report on. It may be partitioned in multiple ways as well. 00:21 <@Corydon76-dig> It's not difficult, per se, but you need to know how to organize your data for optimal query processing 00:21 <@macogw> oh. thats what the class is on. 00:21 <@sdodson> s/organized/transform/ 00:21 <@Corydon76-dig> In data warehousing, the design of the database is probably 90% of the solution 00:22 <@macogw> the class is "database systems" ...its mostly database design and optimization with B+ trees and stuff 00:22 <@Corydon76-dig> Good design makes the queries obvious and quick to perform 00:22 <@sdodson> Usually they're entirely different systems. 00:23 <@sdodson> You take your transactional data, aggregate it and pump it into the warehouse. 00:23 <@macogw> for data mining goodness? 00:23 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: separate machines from your OLTP, you mean? 00:23 <@sdodson> Most definitely different machines. 00:24 <@sdodson> You don't want to fail to capture a line entry because some massive report was running. 00:24 <@sdodson> machines, even often software 00:25 <@Corydon76-dig> I've actually helped design database layout to use MySQL for DSS, back in the day. We settled on creating several MySQL slaves, and isolating each query to a single slave, sort of like a batch processor 00:25 <@sdodson> different storage strategies, etc. 00:26 <@sdodson> Data warehouses often end up being many times larger than the raw transactional data. 00:26 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: I've never had that happen 00:27 <@Corydon76-dig> Views and normalization counteract any normal expansion 00:29 <@Corydon76-dig> My most fun experience with data-warehousing was when we stored the sales stats in a 373-column table 00:30 <@Corydon76-dig> 1 column identifier, and 372 columns for the rare 53-week year 00:30 <@macogw> O_O 00:30 <@macogw> every year has a 53rd week 00:30 <@Corydon76-dig> since sales were always on a 7-day cyclical 00:30 <@macogw> just not a full one 00:30 <@sdodson> Dimensional data is often the opposite of normalized data. 00:31 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: in retail, you count 52 weeks normally, and every few years you have a 53-week year 00:31 <@macogw> Corydon76-dig: weird 00:31 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: it's done entirely to deal with the sales cycle 00:31 <@Corydon76-dig> Sales typically spike on the weekend 00:32 <@Corydon76-dig> So if you want to compare two weeks, you need to ensure that they are full weeks 00:32 <@macogw> i see 00:32 <@Corydon76-dig> so you can overlay stats for best comparison 00:34 <@sdodson> The text used in our DW course is listed in the wikipedia entry, yay. 00:34 <@Corydon76-dig> Anyway, years are divided into quarters and each quarter is typically a 4-5-4 week pattern, for months 00:34 <@Corydon76-dig> except for the 53-week year, where the final quarter is 4-5-5 00:35 <@macogw> so one year will go from 1/1/2000 to 1/6/2001 ? 00:35 <@macogw> or somethign like that 00:36 <@Corydon76-dig> Well, for example, the Booksamillion FY2009 goes from February 3rd, 2008 to January 31, 2009 00:37 <@macogw> february? 00:37 <@Corydon76-dig> since the fiscal year ends around the beginning of Feb 00:37 <@macogw> weird 00:37 <@macogw> fiscal year? is that based on when you open instead of the calendar? 00:37 <@Corydon76-dig> You have to realize that that makes sense for the book business, where the 4th quarter is always the biggest quarter 00:38 <@Corydon76-dig> Fiscal year is based on how you report to the state and fed govt 00:38 <@macogw> oh 00:38 <@Corydon76-dig> The reason BAMM doesn't end in December is because they have a huge month in December, and they're very busy 00:39 <@sdodson> and SEC 00:39 <@macogw> ok 00:39 <@Corydon76-dig> SEC being part of the Fed govt 00:39 <@sdodson> oh ya 00:40 <@Corydon76-dig> IRS and SEC are the two biggies, though 00:40 <@Corydon76-dig> Besides, they have to do other stuff in January to satisfy IRS and Labor 00:41 <@sdodson> Anyway, it's hard to make data warehouses without domain specific information. 00:41 <@Corydon76-dig> Employee W2s, mostly 00:41 <@macogw> Corydon76-dig: so, back to programming...if i wanna learn to write gnome apps, should i go with more bug fixing for a while or just kinda dive in and try to write something fun? 00:41 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: both 00:41 <@macogw> even if "something fun" means something big? 00:42 <@Corydon76-dig> bugfixes are going to help you discover how apps are written 00:42 <@Corydon76-dig> don't dive in to anything big at this point 00:42 <@Corydon76-dig> but sure, try to write your own tiny app, that's fine 00:43 <@macogw> cuz something fun...or rather, something that doesnt exist and i want, means a new UI to interface with evolution-data-server's calendar functionality because i dont like the monolithic approach they have 00:43 <@Corydon76-dig> Writing a tiny app is going to be easier to debug, and it'll be more satisfying, sooner 00:43 <@macogw> heh i was all happy/bouncy for a few hours after fixing that bug today 00:44 <@Corydon76-dig> Work your way up to larger apps 00:44 <@macogw> 6 hours of trying to find where to make my 6-line fix kinda sucked 00:44 <@Corydon76-dig> Writing something big takes as much inspiration and management skills as programming 00:45 <@macogw> my away message all day today was something about people who dont comment code sucking 00:45 <@Corydon76-dig> macogw: have you added comments as a result? 00:45 <@macogw> no i still dont understand most of what i read 00:45 <@macogw> i commented my part 00:45 <@Corydon76-dig> I generally find it useful to document existing code, to make it easier to read later 00:46 <@macogw> yeah i never figured out how to read it really 00:46 <@macogw> at some point i found the library's hierarchy on live.gnome.org and used that to give up on trying to trace my way to where it was happening and jump straight to the file in question 00:48 <@sdodson> sounds like a good approach 00:48 <@Corydon76-dig> Well, I'm about to fall out of my chair, so I'm going to bed 00:48 <@macogw> night night 00:48 <@macogw> sdodson: wish id looked up the library sooner 00:48 <@macogw> then i couldve gotten to the 2 hours of segfaults sooner 00:52 <@sdodson> yes, just sleep, goodnight, have fun 00:52 <@sdodson> sounds like you're learning quickly 00:54 <@macogw> or i finally ran out of stubborn :P 00:55 <@macogw> i should go do my homework and not look at ubuntu's bugtracker til its done 00:55 <@macogw> otherwise ill spend another night & day on it 00:58 -!- AstralSin [n=astralsi@24-158-189-106.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59 <@sdodson> I've never had any fun tracking down bugs. They're always something I can't reproduce or they're fixed before I reproduce them. 00:59 <@macogw> well im the one that reported this one 01:00 -!- sdodson changed the topic of #se2600 to: Summercon May 30 - June 1 http://www.summercon.org/ 01:00 <@macogw> after compiling with --enable-debug the problem was pretty obvious (cant download a gpg key from a 500 error) it was just finding where the downloading happens that was a problem 01:53 -!- macogw [n=maco@ubuntu/member/macogw] has left #se2600 [] 02:50 <@Mirage> http://www.guba.com/watch/2000793630?category_id=462&duration_step=0&filter_tiny=0&pp=40&sb=5&set=-1&sf=0&size_step=0&o=502&sample=1208072920:a3c76f076da3a1376be45cd3fd2df05f1c639238 02:50 <@Mirage> ~minilink 02:50 <@Mirage> damnit 02:50 <+MxZBot> http://maxiez.com/l/guba.com/1yA4c 02:51 <@Mirage> ah..just being pokey 03:07 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27 -!- AstralSin [n=astralsi@24-158-189-106.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600 08:39 <@someninjamaster> mirage have you got any of your pictures up yet 08:46 <@someninjamaster> in reference to mirages link http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=8a25c3921127cd9a011128103b3600bc 09:12 -!- R3d2Dawn [n=R3d2Dawn@71-87-176-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600 09:12 -!- R3d2Dawn [n=R3d2Dawn@71-87-176-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has joined #se2600 10:28 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o omegix] by ChanServ 10:34 <@Mirage> someninjamaster: Uploading the pictures now. Nice link..esp classic is that it was followed by what can only be described as a 'furry' commercial 10:35 <@mtown_nerd> Morning, folks. ] 10:35 <@mtown_nerd> :] 10:36 <@SkyDog_> yo. 11:11 <@sdodson> automatic bzooty 11:15 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 11:15 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o dc0de] by ChanServ 11:25 <@Mirage> http://youtube.com/watch?v=z6d2ijjOS50 11:29 <@tzanger> hahaha 11:44 <@SkyDog_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXBL6bzAR4 11:44 <@SkyDog_> for mirage 11:47 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55 < ware> wee 11:55 < ware> so our 45 minute drive to virgin falls turned into a 3 1/2 hour drive 11:55 -!- deoptima [i=Me@c-68-52-145-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 11:55 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o deoptima] by ChanServ 11:55 < ware> apparently the trailhead is not accessible from the south 11:56 <@tzanger> what are some of those "programmer for hire" sites where non-programmers say "I need this" and other non-programmers can pitch in to the bounty, then a programmer takes the bounty and does the work? 11:57 <@tzanger> I cannot find them for the life of me 11:57 -!- deoptima [i=Me@c-68-52-145-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:03 -!- dysturbed [n=dysturbe@182.223.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #se2600 12:05 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 12:06 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o dc0de] by ChanServ 12:07 <@NotLarry> does anyone have a zip drive I could borrow? 12:11 <@someninjamaster> i have an orb drive if we are looking for really outdated disks 12:15 -!- R3d2Dawn [n=R3d2Dawn@71-87-176-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600 12:26 <@sdodson> I can't believe EMC bought iomega 12:32 <@brimstone> anyone know off hand if cacti can graph cpu/memory/io on a linux system? 12:34 <@SkyDog_> NotLarry: I might have access to one. what size? 12:35 <@Mirage> I may have an old internal 100mb somewhere 12:35 <@Corydon76-dig> NotLarry: Possibly. do you need parallel or SCSI? 12:36 <@Corydon76-dig> and do you need the 100mb model or the 250mb model? 12:47 <@sdodson> 250mb model will read 100mb 12:57 -!- Neoteric [n=timball@c-69-251-224-10.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 12:57 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o Neoteric] by ChanServ 13:07 -!- unixfag [n=ryan@pdpc/supporter/professional/unixfag] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44 -!- unixfag [n=ryan@pdpc/supporter/professional/unixfag] has joined #se2600 13:44 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o unixfag] by ChanServ 13:50 -!- Neoteric [n=timball@c-69-251-224-10.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has quit ["I quitz"] 14:33 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46 * mtown_nerd can't wait for his Wolfdale. :D 14:51 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 14:51 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o dc0de] by ChanServ 15:03 -!- mtown_nerd [n=jhester@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:06 < ware> american gangster is the shit 15:15 <@dc0de> ware; in what context? a movie, an album, a way of life? 15:15 < ware> the movie 15:15 < ware> just watched it 15:15 <@dc0de> ahh, k 15:16 <@dc0de> not sure if I remember it. 15:16 * dc0de is watching the braves games.. 15:16 <@dc0de> s/games/game 15:17 <@dasunt> PEEPS! 15:18 <@dasunt> Wait. This is probably the wrong channel. 15:18 <@dc0de> sup dasunt, just found your easter stash? 15:18 <@dc0de> of PEEPS? 15:18 <@dasunt> I went to clean my oven, and I just noticed it has a "clean" setting. 15:18 <@dc0de> heh 15:18 <@dasunt> How do I use it? 15:18 <@dc0de> yeah, but be sure to take the batteries out of your smoke alarms first. 15:18 <@dc0de> what kind of oven? Make and Model? 15:19 <@dc0de> Gas or Electric? 15:19 <@dasunt> Electric. 15:20 <@dc0de> ok, that's one piece of info necessary. 15:20 <@dasunt> Kenmore. 15:20 <@dasunt> And it is filthy. 15:20 <@dc0de> model #? 15:21 <@dasunt> Woah, I have an oven drawer! 15:21 <@dasunt> 911.9354590 15:21 <@dasunt> That's a spiffy model number. 15:21 <@dc0de> dasunt: www.managemyhome.com 15:22 <@dasunt> I've never rented a place with a self cleaning oven. 15:22 < ware> http://www.ladymerlin.com/gallery/2600hike/DSCN0558 15:22 <@dc0de> there is the owners manual... http://www.managemyhome.com/mmh/products/ManualSearch.action?product.productName=Oven&product.brandName=Kenmore&product.modelNumber=9119354590&docUrl=http://www.managemyhome.com/mmh/lis_pdf/OWNM/L0710503.pdf 15:22 <@dc0de> ~minilink 15:22 <+MxZBot> http://maxiez.com/l/managemyhome.com/eZVt3.action 15:22 <@dasunt> Thank you! 15:23 <@dc0de> dasunt; no prob. 15:23 <@dasunt> I'm happy. 15:23 <@dasunt> I haven't went to clean out my oven since I rented this place. 15:25 -!- sasquatc4 [i=hjklk@c-76-25-86-246.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25 -!- sasquatc4 [i=hjklk@c-76-25-86-246.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 15:25 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o sasquatc4] by ChanServ 15:28 -!- tcstool [n=tcstool@74-38-170-152.dsl1.ckvl.tn.frontiernet.net] has joined #se2600 15:28 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o tcstool] by ChanServ 15:32 < dmcmorris_esi> I think I just made a clothesline worthy of the redneck record books.... 15:33 < dmcmorris_esi> a piece of coax cable strung across my living room, supported in the center with 2 broom handles held together with a hose clamp... 15:36 < ware> pics or shens 15:37 <@tcstool> ware, you're such a loser :-p 15:37 < ware> i know :D 15:38 <@tcstool> did you guys have a good time yesterday? 15:38 <@dc0de> dmcmorris_esi; only if you take pics, with your skidmarked underwear hanging on them... and post it on the 'net 15:39 < dmcmorris_esi> dc0de: my digi camera is horrible... 15:39 < dmcmorris_esi> ...and missing ;) 15:39 < ware> i know :D 15:39 <@dc0de> use a cell camera... it makes it perfect. 15:39 < ware> err yeh 15:39 < dmcmorris_esi> heh 15:39 < dmcmorris_esi> no cell cam :-/ 15:39 <@dc0de> dmcmorris_esi; you fail 15:40 < dmcmorris_esi> yeah... :-/ 15:42 * dc0de is a proud dad. 15:42 <@dc0de> my 9 year old just rattled off the entire first line of the US Constitution. 15:42 <@dc0de> from memory 15:43 < dmcmorris_esi> "we the people"? 15:43 < dmcmorris_esi> I think that's the first line... ;) 15:43 <@dc0de> no, the ENTIRE first line 15:43 <@dc0de> We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. 15:44 <@dasunt> That oven is smoking! 15:44 <@dasunt> I think the previous renters never cleaned it. 15:44 < dmcmorris_esi> the preamble ;) 15:44 <@dc0de> dasunt; I told you to take the batteries out of your smoke detectors 15:45 <@dasunt> I did. 15:45 < dmcmorris_esi> I had a coffee cup lid fall on my dish washer element last night :-/ 15:45 <@dasunt> I had a friend once who lived in an efficiency. 15:45 <@dc0de> dmcmorris_esi; yes, the ENTIRE preamble, or the ENTIRE First Sentence of the Constitution. 15:45 <@dc0de> he's 9yrs old 15:45 <@dc0de> dasunt; do you have a fire extinguisher? 15:45 <@dasunt> Had a combination living/bedroom that was probably 10x12 feet if that, and a small (6x8?) kitchen. 15:46 <@dasunt> We'd sit and talk or game, me, him, and my other two friends. I was the only non-smoker. 15:46 <@dasunt> The kitchen is starting to look like his apartment after about an hour. 15:46 < dmcmorris_esi> cool! ;) Congratulations! 15:46 <@dasunt> dc0de: No. But I have plenty of blankets. 15:46 <@dc0de> dasunt; if you were in a room that small, you weren't a "non-smoker", you actually smoked more than they did. 15:47 <@dc0de> dasunt; EVERY home/apartment should have at least one ABC dry chemical fire extinguisher. 15:47 <@dasunt> dc0de: I know. :p 15:47 <@dasunt> dc0de: You are right. Ii should remedy that. 15:48 <@dc0de> dasunt; go purchase one for your car, and one for your kitchen 15:48 <@dc0de> they're cheap. 15:48 <@dasunt> My truck had a nice ABC extinguisher. 15:48 <@dc0de> I have two under the sink, one in each car, one in the garage, and one upstairs in the master bath. 15:48 * dasunt misses that truck. 15:48 < ware> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4868.pdf 15:48 < ware> ftw 15:48 <@dc0de> ware; what is it? 15:48 <@dasunt> I'll pick up an ABC extinguisher next time I'm out, one or two for the apartment, and one for the car. 15:49 <@dc0de> dasunt; I'd feel better for you... 15:49 <@dc0de> I worry about people that don't have the basics... 15:49 <@dasunt> I'm also picking up a new battery for the smoke detector. 15:49 <@dc0de> a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit. 15:49 < ware> dc0de: extention form 15:49 <@dc0de> and those too. 15:49 <@dc0de> ware; ahh, don't need. 15:56 <@dasunt> Speaking of things for the house, why don't people who live in hurricane areas stock up? 15:57 <@dc0de> stock up? for what? 15:58 <@dc0de> dasunt; that's like saying people who live in snowy areas should "stock up". 15:58 <@dc0de> since there are large portions of the US that lose power on a regular basis during the winter months, due to Ice, Snow, and high winds. 15:59 <@dc0de> I grew up in the "snow belt" and we had everything we needed to survive for a week without power, water, heat, and transit. 15:59 <@dasunt> dc0de: I did. 16:00 <@dc0de> for those people who didn't, we simply let Darwinism do it's job. 16:00 -!- MudFlap [n=MudFlap@66.64.202.66.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #se2600 16:01 <@dasunt> To be fair, in the midwest, week-long power outages are pretty rare. 16:01 <@dasunt> Where hurricane season in places like Florida, it seems that long power outages are much more common. 16:01 <@dc0de> We had a community, and would share with each other, to make sure we all got by... but we didn't have any remorse or give any thought to those who wouldn't perform the basics to protect themselves 16:02 <@dc0de> dasunt; i grew up in new england, and while weeklong outages were very rare, a day outage was common in the middle 70's to middle 80's. 16:03 <@dc0de> and the snow fell much more during the late 70's and mid 80's. I remember one winter where we had three blizzards. 16:03 <@dc0de> with snowfall over 12", it was awesome. 16:03 <@dc0de> I made $$$ that winter... shovelling driveways. 16:04 <@dasunt> It is probably a shame that snowblowers are common now. That was good winter exercise. 16:05 <@dc0de> snowblowers were common then too, but my dad was too cheap to buy one. 16:06 <@dasunt> There's something to be said for chores that are exercise. 16:07 <@dc0de> dasunt; why do you think I have kids? 16:07 <@dc0de> as my father would always say, "Why have elves if you're not going to make them work?" 16:11 < dmcmorris_esi> http://dmcmorris.net/~dmcmorris/pics/clothesline1.jpg shows my clothes hanging in my living room ;) 16:12 < dmcmorris_esi> http://dmcmorris.net/~dmcmorris/pics/clothesline2.jpg shows one of the connections (it's the cable on the left, tied to an angle bracket) 16:12 < dmcmorris_esi> found a 7 year old web cam in a box of junk... it sucks (obviously)( 16:14 <@dasunt> dc0de: I mean exercise for yourself. 16:14 <@dc0de> dasunt; bite me... I had exercise, when I conceived them. 16:29 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 16:30 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 16:34 -!- tcstool [n=tcstool@74-38-170-152.dsl1.ckvl.tn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36 -!- remoford [n=remoford@c-76-22-253-140.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 16:37 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 16:39 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 16:53 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 16:58 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 17:31 -!- R3d2Dawn [n=R3d2Dawn@71-87-176-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:36 -!- MudFlap [n=MudFlap@66.64.202.66.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [] 17:43 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 17:44 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 17:46 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has left #se2600 [] 17:46 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 17:46 -!- mtown_ner1 [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has left #se2600 [] 18:01 -!- astralsin1 [n=astralsi@24-158-189-106.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600 18:02 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03 <@aestetix> vagina 18:04 < astralsin1> yum 18:04 <@dc0de> orgasm 18:04 -!- AstralSin [n=astralsi@24-158-189-106.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:04 -!- astralsin1 is now known as AstralSin 18:18 <@sdodson> What are things aestetix has to pay for, Alex? 18:25 -!- tcstool [n=tcstool@74-38-170-152.dsl1.ckvl.tn.frontiernet.net] has joined #se2600 18:25 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o tcstool] by ChanServ 18:33 -!- GodFix [n=chatzill@h69-21-239-226.69-21.unk.tds.net] has joined #se2600 18:33 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o GodFix] by ChanServ 18:58 -!- ShadowHntr [i=sentinel@wikipedia/Shadowhntr] has joined #se2600 18:58 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o ShadowHntr] by ChanServ 19:04 -!- tcstool [n=tcstool@74-38-170-152.dsl1.ckvl.tn.frontiernet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:04 < AstralSin> gotta have some cheap beer cans littering the room too 19:04 < AstralSin> oh fuck 19:04 < AstralSin> that was for a conversation that happened a long time ago 19:05 < AstralSin> nevermind 19:05 <@aestetix> lolz 19:07 <@brimstone> lolz 19:08 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 19:08 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 19:11 <@sdodson> hai its brimstone! 19:11 <@brimstone> sdodson: make my catalyst 3500 xl work plz 19:13 <@sdodson> sounds shiny 19:13 <@brimstone> i can't console to it :( 19:13 <@sdodson> why not have your networking team oook at it? 19:13 <@brimstone> it doesn't let me 19:13 <@brimstone> i am the network team 19:15 <@sdodson> that sucks 19:16 * mtown_nerd saw "catalyst" and thought "video card." lol 19:16 <@mtown_nerd> doh >< 19:16 <@GodFix> brimstone: r u sure it's no your serial port? 19:17 <@GodFix> can you telnet/ssh to it? 19:17 <@brimstone> i know the serial port on the box is good, just tested that 19:17 <@GodFix> using the right port settings? 19:18 <@sdodson> i hear your networking team sucks 19:18 <@brimstone> according to http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps700/products_tech_note09186a008010ff7a.shtml#connecttermtocat i am 19:18 <@brimstone> sdodson: shut yo mouf 19:18 <@GodFix> I'm in process of attempting to upgrade IOS on a 3550 right now and it's telling me "ERROR: Image is not a valid IOS image archive." 19:18 <@sdodson> slackers, each and every one of em 19:22 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23 -!- hobbes615 [n=ryan@pool-71-255-235-132.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #se2600 19:23 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o hobbes615] by ChanServ 19:26 <@ShadowHntr> GodFix: i'm no cisco expert, but perhaps your file is either an invalid archive, or in the wrong format? 19:28 < ware> brimstone: why you leaved us 19:28 <@GodFix> it's what Cisco told me 19:29 <@brimstone> fed up with shadow 19:29 <@GodFix> I'm on the phone with them right now 19:47 <@dc0de> GodFix; what file do you have? 19:47 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 19:47 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 19:47 <@dc0de> what is the filename you're trying to upload as your image? 19:53 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55 <@GodFix> dc0de: c3550-ipservicesk9-tar.122-44.SE1.tar 19:55 <@dc0de> GodFix; lemme do some looking 19:56 <@GodFix> it's funny, I can save the running config to the tftp server and load the running config from tftp, but the IOS images won't load 19:57 <@dc0de> what series router? 19:58 <@GodFix> Cat3550 EMI 19:58 <@dc0de> kk. 19:58 <@dc0de> looking 19:58 <@dc0de> are you doing this via the CLI or via CMS? 19:58 <@GodFix> cli 19:59 <@dc0de> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps646/products_configuration_example09186a0080169623.shtml#concept9 19:59 <@dc0de> that's the file you need. 19:59 <@GodFix> I'm actually on the phone with a Csico engineer who's as stumped as I am 19:59 <@dc0de> err, actually that's the instruction set you need. 19:59 <@dc0de> you need the .bin file, if you're doing the CLI upgrade. 19:59 <@dc0de> the tar file is for using the CMS 20:00 <@brimstone> up next on the Cisco Hour, we help you tag ports and setup POE, don't go away! 20:00 <@dc0de> brimstone; Heh... 20:00 <@dc0de> GodFix; 24 port or 48port? 20:02 <@GodFix> 24 20:02 <@GodFix> holy blow my shorts 20:03 <@GodFix> it's amazing when the actaul Cisco Engineer give you a command that isn't working 20:03 * brimstone salutes his shorts 20:03 <@GodFix> here's what they said to do: archive download-sw /overwrite tftp://ip-address/c3550-ipservicesk9-tar.122-44.SE1.tar 20:14 -!- dc0de_ [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 20:14 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o dc0de_] by ChanServ 20:14 <@dc0de_> narf 20:15 -!- dc0de [n=dc0de@c-76-97-62-119.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:21 < ware> dick and fart hokes 20:22 <@sdodson> hoke hoke! 20:22 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has joined #se2600 20:22 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o omegix] by ChanServ 20:40 -!- R3d2Dawn [n=R3d2Dawn@71-87-176-185.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #se2600 20:40 < R3d2Dawn> Has anyone seen the Hitman Movie 20:41 <@JimShoe> its on PPV right now, but havn't watched it 20:42 <@brimstone> a friend said it made him want to play the game 20:42 < R3d2Dawn> Any one seen Dark Angel 20:42 * brimstone has, twice 20:42 < R3d2Dawn> you remember the intro to each show? 20:43 <@brimstone> mostly 20:43 <@dc0de_> yeah, I've seen about all of them 20:44 < R3d2Dawn> you remember the parts the show of the flashback of her and the others being tattooed on the back of the neck with the bar code and them also escaping, and a scene showing two of them escaping dark angel and another kid? 20:44 <@brimstone> let's say yes for conversation 20:44 < R3d2Dawn> through the snow and climbing a barbed wire fence? 20:44 <@omegix> yar 20:45 <@dc0de_> yes 20:45 < R3d2Dawn> Well for yes sake I think they used some of the same scenes in the begining intro for the Hitman movie 20:45 <@brimstone> herm 20:45 <@omegix> odd 20:45 < R3d2Dawn> Yeah it is odd 20:45 < R3d2Dawn> for me the stuck out like a sore thumb 20:45 * brimstone puts that in front of someone to eat cheese with 20:46 <@sdodson> i like cheese 20:46 < R3d2Dawn> theiy either used the same footage or the scenes are very similar 20:46 <@omegix> did you read any of the books after the series? 20:46 <@omegix> I was always curious how the sandaval thing was resolved. 20:47 < R3d2Dawn> no not yet 20:47 < R3d2Dawn> I was pissed they ended it so soon though 20:48 <@omegix> I have the second book downloaded to pdf, but it's a huge file 20:48 < R3d2Dawn> how many books are their? 20:48 < R3d2Dawn> Hit man was a good movie, I can see them coming out with another 20:49 <@omegix> three i think. the first one is supposed to be filler, the second is supposed to resolve the sandaval thing. i forget what the third does. synopsis available on wikipedia. 20:49 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has joined #se2600 20:49 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o mtown_nerd] by ChanServ 20:49 < R3d2Dawn> It seems to also follow suit as with Jason Bourne in the manner Jason falls victim to a girl and winds up helping her 20:49 < R3d2Dawn> Hitman that is 20:49 <@brimstone> omg spoilers! 20:49 <@mtown_nerd> Hitman was kinda' terrible. :/ 20:49 < R3d2Dawn> so you watched it 20:50 < R3d2Dawn> ? 20:50 <@mtown_nerd> Yarp 20:50 < R3d2Dawn> have you also watched dark angel? 20:50 <@mtown_nerd> i have not 21:01 <@freakn> ping skydog 21:02 < R3d2Dawn> pinging skydog [unkown] with infinite bytes of data: 21:03 < R3d2Dawn> request timed out. 21:12 <@mtown_nerd> What you guys up to tonight? 21:13 <@GodFix> about 6'0", 245lbs 21:13 <@mtown_nerd> heh 21:13 <@mtown_nerd> cute :p 21:13 <@GodFix> flashing a switch 21:13 <@dc0de_> flashing the neighbors 21:13 <@GodFix> changing some routing paths 21:14 <@dc0de_> changing my underwear 21:14 <@mtown_nerd> I don't suppose anyone has any experience with the Twin2X4096-6400C5DHX RAM modules, do they? :o 21:14 <@dc0de_> well, I slept with a pair last night. 21:14 <@dc0de_> they were cold, unloving, and very edgy. 21:15 <@mtown_nerd> awww :{ 21:15 <@dc0de_> and they can't cook breakfast for shit. 21:16 <@mtown_nerd> I think I've hit the limitations of these modules at, like, stock frequencies. lol People really weren't kidding when they said they don't OC for shit. 21:16 <@mtown_nerd> ~_~ 21:16 <+MxZBot> mtown_nerd: i haven't a clue 21:21 <@brimstone> R3d2Dawn: holy cow, those do look almost the same 21:21 <@mtown_nerd> ? :o 21:24 <@Evilpig> fucking blizzard. we had illidan sub 1% and the damn server crashed 21:25 <@mtown_nerd> lol 21:25 <@mtown_nerd> siiiigh :P 21:26 -!- ShadowHntr [i=sentinel@wikipedia/Shadowhntr] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:29 <@mtown_nerd> What race/class, EP? 21:30 <@sdodson> I hate mmos 21:31 < ware> Evilpig: lulz 21:32 <@mtown_nerd> I did after playing so many of them for so long ... but now that I've been away for a while, I'm ready for a game to come along so that I can play a char that improves over time that I can kill cool shit w/ my friends. 21:32 <@mtown_nerd> lol 21:32 -!- GodFix_ [n=chatzill@h69-21-239-226.69-21.unk.tds.net] has joined #se2600 21:34 -!- GodFix_ [n=chatzill@h69-21-239-226.69-21.unk.tds.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34 -!- GodFix [n=chatzill@h69-21-239-226.69-21.unk.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35 <@sdodson> A friend is trying to get me to play WoW again. 21:35 <@sdodson> I told him no way, i'm going to develop a social life, he laughed at me. 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> lol 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> Silly "normie" 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> Wanting social interaction 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> ! 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> The only one I'm waiting on at this point is WAR. 21:36 <@mtown_nerd> Everything else is moot. 21:38 <@SkyDog_> evening all. 21:39 <@sdodson> hai SkyDog_! 21:39 -!- cwire [n=chatzill@c-71-226-12-74.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #se2600 21:39 <@SkyDog_> yo sdodson 21:39 < eryc> HELLO SKYDOG 21:39 < eryc> HAI!!! 21:39 <@sdodson> SkyDog_: When we heading to wilpig's place for that abuse session? 21:40 <@SkyDog_> heya eryc. 21:40 <@SkyDog_> sdodson: only if we're going to abuse him. 21:40 <@SkyDog_> i have a baseball bat need to break in. 21:40 <@sdodson> sounds good! 21:40 <@sdodson> we'll give him a mullet 21:41 <@SkyDog_> with a mallet 21:41 <@dc0de_> w00f 21:41 <@dc0de_> sup cwire 21:41 < cwire> sup dc0de 21:41 <@SkyDog_> W00f! 21:41 <@dc0de_> working on Thunderbird... 21:42 <@SkyDog_> sucka. 21:42 < cwire> fun... 21:42 <@dc0de_> heh 21:42 <@sdodson> working on it? 21:42 <@dc0de_> adding some add-ins... trying to get it to perform what I need for calendaring 21:43 <@freakn> Skydog: how hard is it to silk screen print on pint glasses? 21:44 <@freakn> is it a special screen or a normal flat screen that is really big? 21:45 <@sdodson> brimstone: look at this madness! http://jasondclinton.livejournal.com/65533.html 21:45 <@SkyDog_> freakn: It's not a screen, it's pad printing. 21:45 <@SkyDog_> better to have it done professionally. 21:45 <@sdodson> it involves acid, no? 21:45 <@brimstone> madness!? THIS IS SPARTA! 21:46 <@dc0de_> sdodson; you can print or you can etch 21:46 <@dc0de_> etching involves acid. 21:46 <@freakn> Skydog: the cost of shipping blows the price of glassware sky high though 21:46 <@sdodson> sky high! 21:46 <@sdodson> sky high! 21:47 <@SkyDog_> freakn: yeah. this is true. 21:47 <@sdodson> that's from some song, but I can't recall what it is. 21:47 <@freakn> only need a few dozzen glasses ... I will be looking for local printers tommorrow 21:47 <@freakn> how did you make the pad for oz2? 21:47 <@freakn> oz 3 21:47 <@SkyDog_> we did glass etching. big difference. 21:47 <@SkyDog_> and it was done by hand. 21:48 < R3d2Dawn> yeah I was right, they re-used many scenes in Hitman from the Pilot episode of Dark Angel 21:49 <@freakn> skydog: how hard is it to do the etchings then? Not set on what I'll be doing, just wanna get some pint glasses for a bachelor party 21:50 <@sdodson> wow, that's whack. Debian/Ubuntu actually allows packages that require input via STDIN during install. 21:50 <@sdodson> that makes baby jesus cry 21:51 <@SkyDog_> freakn: I'd have to find the website. you have about a 25% failure rate when doing it by hand. 21:52 <@SkyDog_> http://www.glass-etching-kits.com/glass-etching-starter.htm 21:52 <@SkyDog_> This is the kit we started with. 21:52 <@freakn> thanks for the info 21:53 <@SkyDog_> no problem. 21:53 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: technically, you should be typing on the keyboard while openssh is generating keys... 21:54 <@Corydon76-dig> Any crypto that generates keys is the same way... 21:56 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: what? 21:57 <@Corydon76-dig> The installation of openssh-server typically involves the generation of keys 21:57 <@Corydon76-dig> and to get secure keys, you should be typing on the keyboard while it's doing that 21:57 <@sdodson> Sure, but apparently there are packages that require input in the form of prompts via STDIN 21:58 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: I just look at porn while that's happening in order to introduce entropy. 21:58 <@Corydon76-dig> I'm just saying we should do it more often 21:58 <@sdodson> And I have butteryflys flapping their wings. 21:58 <@sdodson> What? that's broken dude. 21:59 <@sdodson> That should be forbidden via policy. 21:59 < cwire> i don't know if i want any crypto that uses that kind of "seed" to generate keys :-P 21:59 <@sdodson> If you submit a package that REQUIRES input via STDIN during install it's broken. 21:59 <@Corydon76-dig> FreeBSD does that on several packages, too 21:59 <@Corydon76-dig> It's actually rather common 21:59 <@sdodson> Windows use is common too. 22:00 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: are you arguing for less use of Windows? 22:00 <@sdodson> No, just saying that something being common isn't an implication that it's actually good. 22:01 <@Corydon76-dig> There are good reasons for requiring it on packages 22:01 <@aestetix> word 22:01 <@sdodson> Such as? 22:01 <@Corydon76-dig> and I suspect it's overridden if output is not to a terminal 22:02 <@aestetix> "dog" "tree" or "cat".... a word is any grouping of letters, or in some cases, a letter in itself 22:02 <@Corydon76-dig> (You can detect that, you know) 22:03 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: such as asking for additional options, with a libnewt window, for example 22:03 <@sasquatc4> is there anyway to block numbers from calling/texting on cingular? everything im reading is that they wont actually do that, which seems rediculous 22:03 <@sdodson> Asking for options should be something that can be suppressed. Otherwise there's no way to automated it and therefore it's busted. 22:03 <@Corydon76-dig> sasquatc4: There is not, but you can ask that they do not charge you for the text message 22:03 <@sdodson> broken by design. 22:04 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: The Asterisk build process isn't very friendly toward automation, either 22:04 <@sdodson> Busted. 22:04 <@sasquatc4> hmm, k, tryin to help the woman cause she keeps getting harrasing texts from an ex, you would think after all these years they would have that worked out, but i guess since they get money for it they dont care 22:05 <@sdodson> i imagine calling customer service would end that. 22:05 <@Corydon76-dig> No, we concentrate of user-friendly. The automation groupies are smart people and figure it out, if they desperately want it 22:05 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: Customer service? 22:05 -!- rattle [n=rattle@tor/regular/rattle] has joined #se2600 22:05 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o rattle] by ChanServ 22:05 <@sdodson> So automate your install, then tell the user to run zomg-leet-configuration-tool-for-newbz 22:05 <@Corydon76-dig> Pray tell, how do you call customer service on an open source project? 22:06 * sdodson pats Corydon76-dig and tells him it's going to be alright 22:06 <@sdodson> I'mt alking about sasquatc4's txt messaging person 22:07 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: Nice, switching conversations, without redirecting output. Good sysadmin practices. 22:07 <@Corydon76-dig> Remind me never to ask you to multitask on any of my systems 22:07 <@sdodson> I was having a conversation with sasquatc4, not you! 22:08 <@sasquatc4> sdodson: apparently not, they just cant block numbers and tell you to call the police 22:08 <@sdodson> multitasking is a myth! 22:08 <@Corydon76-dig> sasquatc4: call Congress, instead 22:08 <@sasquatc4> of course they are willing to change your number, for a fee and the hassle of you getting a new number 22:08 <@sdodson> That sucks. 22:09 <@Corydon76-dig> Proposed laws make them move in a hurry to a solution and show Congress there's no need for new legislation 22:09 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: Anyway, I stand firm on the opinion that anything requiring user input during package installation time is fundamentally busted. 22:09 <@sdodson> *REQUIRING* as in there's no sane way to pass --stfuplzjustinstalldamnit 22:09 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: I wouldn't be surprised if your employer has several packages like that 22:10 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: I know we don't because it's a fundamental policy of RPM not to allow user interaction during package installation. 22:10 <@sdodson> I'm speaking specifically of items packaged, such as debs or rpms. 22:10 <@sdodson> Incase that wasn't clear. 22:11 <@Corydon76-dig> and not build processes? 22:11 <@sdodson> The same should apply to configure and make scripts. 22:12 <@sdodson> You have a bunch of expect scripts in your build farm or something bustificated like that? 22:12 <@Corydon76-dig> Make sure you let the kernel maintainers know that you disapprove of 'make menuconfig' 22:12 <@sdodson> That's not *REQUIRED* 22:12 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: No, we simply don't configure options on our build farms 22:13 < eryc> The Asterisk build process is stupid 22:13 <@Corydon76-dig> We take the default options 22:13 <@Corydon76-dig> eryc: the Asterisk build process is a standard ./configure ; make 22:13 <@sdodson> Good job, so what are you saying that contradicts my mentality that anything which cannot be automated is busted? 22:14 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: passwords are a good reason to require interaction, too 22:14 <@sdodson> I don't care if ./configure --makemedothehokeypokey cycles through asking you to stick your left arm in, out, etc. 22:15 <@sdodson> So install, don't include a password, refuse to run without having a password set. problem solved. 22:15 <@Corydon76-dig> I have one such expect script, although it's related to development, not to building 22:15 -!- mtown_nerd [n=Josh_Hes@fileserver.ghruaim.net] has left #se2600 [] 22:16 <@sdodson> 19:50 <@sdodson> wow, that's whack. Debian/Ubuntu actually allows packages that require input via STDIN during install. <@sdodson> that makes baby jesus cry 22:16 <@sdodson> ^^ my original statement incase it's become unclear over the past 20 minutes 22:16 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: which packages? 22:16 <@dasunt> sdodson: Er, doesn't that make sense? 22:16 <@dasunt> For example, installing exim. 22:16 <@sdodson> Apparently some packages, which is why PackageKit will not work with. 22:16 <@dasunt> It is going to need configuration settings. 22:16 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: name one, specifically 22:17 <@sdodson> Why on earth does installation of a package REQUIRE USER INPUT DURING PACKAGE INSTALLT IME? 22:17 <@Corydon76-dig> I'm curious to see this interaction 22:17 <@dasunt> sdodson: Because they may need to be configured? 22:17 <@sdodson> http://jasondclinton.livejournal.com/65533.html 22:17 <@dasunt> So what does Redhat/Fedora do? 22:18 <@dasunt> Just leave everything unconfigured for you? 22:18 <@sdodson> rpms are not allowed to ask for user input. 22:18 <@sdodson> Yup. 22:18 <@dasunt> Cute. 22:18 <@dasunt> sdodson: You can force packages to not ask for configuration, I think. 22:18 <@dc0de_> sasquatc4; I would contact the FCC, and make it a federal issue. 22:18 <@sdodson> I'm not suggesting that the ability to configure packages during installation should be removed. Just that allowing packages to REQUIRE input is busted. 22:18 <@dc0de_> Harassment over the telephone is a serious federal offense. 22:19 <@sdodson> dasunt: Apparently there are no policies in the debian packaging guides which prohibit such. And that's the problem. 22:19 <@dasunt> sdodson: I don't see the problem. 22:19 < eryc> the new asterisk seems okay. last i used it was 1.2 and that was ugly 22:19 <@sdodson> The problem is that there's no way to automate it (sanely) if it requires input via STDIN. 22:20 <@dasunt> sdodson: Look at --config-file 22:20 <@dc0de_> well, I'm outty... 22:20 <@dasunt> Woopsie, wrong option. 22:20 * dc0de_ is away: off to bed 22:20 < eryc> what does it ask you for on stdin? 22:21 <@dasunt> sdodson: You want to look at dpkg --unpack 22:21 <@dasunt> sdodson: That will unpack the package (that is, install it) but leave it unconfigured. 22:22 <@sdodson> configuration is dependant on debconf, right? 22:22 <@dasunt> Then "dpkg --configure --pending" looks like it will configure all pending packages. 22:22 <@Corydon76-dig> Oh, I see... 22:22 <@dasunt> Looks like (according to the man page) there are two steps 22:22 <@sdodson> Apparently there are known packages in the debian repos which do not respect options asking not to configure during install time and require input via stdin. 22:22 <@dasunt> 1. Unpack the configuration files, and at the same time back up 22:22 <@dasunt> the old configuration files, so that they can be restored if 22:22 <@dasunt> something goes wrong. 22:22 <@dasunt> 22:22 <@dasunt> 2. Run postinst script, if provided by the package. 22:23 <@Corydon76-dig> The issue is that dpkg (nicely) asks if there are dependencies, if you want to install, instead of blindly going forward or blindly failing 22:23 <@Corydon76-dig> RH's default is to just install the 300 dependencies regardless 22:24 <@dasunt> Corydon76-dig: There are also packages that ask for input upon removal. 22:24 <@Corydon76-dig> dasunt: right because other things depend on it 22:24 <@dasunt> IIRC, trying to remove libc gives you a prompt where you have to type something like "do as I say" 22:24 <@sdodson> I don't think dep installation is the issue at hand here. 22:24 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: actually, that is usually the reason why it requires input 22:24 <@sdodson> From reading dialog the problem is that certain packages require input via stdin in order to install properly. 22:25 <@Corydon76-dig> "Hey, I need to install some other packages, too. Is that okay?" 22:25 <@sdodson> Surely that can be automated, I don't get the impression the problem here is related to programatically using dpkg. 22:25 <@dasunt> sdodson: Did you try "--unpack" 22:25 <@Corydon76-dig> Actually, I think apt-get is what prompts that 22:26 <@Corydon76-dig> dasunt: it's not a problem he's personally having; he's incensed over a blog entry 22:26 <@dasunt> Ah. 22:26 <@sdodson> dasunt: I'm not actually trying anything here. I'm just reading what's been described by the author of PackageKit and why it won't work with dpkg. 22:26 <@dasunt> sdodson: It sounds like he didn't take the time to read the man page of PackageKit. 22:26 <@sdodson> Atleast not until there are policies in place which forbid broken behavior. 22:26 <@dasunt> Er, man page of dpkg. 22:27 <@Corydon76-dig> sdodson: in the eyes of others, it's not broken 22:27 <@Corydon76-dig> some of whom have far more experience than you or me 22:27 * dasunt reads the blog entry. 22:28 <@sdodson> dasunt: There are apparently packages which do not work with that because they're broken and there are no policies in place to prevent broken packages like that from being introduced into the repositories. 22:28 <@Corydon76-dig> but tis okay... the Internet never stopped righteous indignation... you go right ahead with your rant... 22:28 < eryc> can we read some poetry next and argue about that? 22:28 <@sdodson> http://jasondclinton.livejournal.com/65533.html?thread=124669#t124669 in particular 22:29 <@Corydon76-dig> Actually, I'm going to play some Patience and then go to bed. I have a 2 hour jaunt into work tomorrow morning. 22:29 <@Corydon76-dig> Good night 22:29 <@sdodson> Corydon76-dig: later. 22:29 <@dasunt> sdodson: I wonder what packages? 22:30 <@dasunt> Hmmmm... 22:30 <@sdodson> I don't know. It'd be interesting to see. 22:30 <@dasunt> I agree. 22:30 < eryc> why would you want to use packagekit? 22:30 <@dasunt> I will say that in the long run, it makes sense to have an abstract (hell, lets use XML, it is popular right now) configuration front end. 22:31 < eryc> its pretty rare that debian packages ask for input.. 22:32 < eryc> although Corydon76 is the resident expert on Packages 22:33 <@sdodson> http://wiki.debian.org/PackageKit has meaningful discussion 22:33 <@dasunt> I'm not getting the point. 22:34 <@dasunt> So he's trying to make a superduper tool to manage all package systems. 22:34 <@dasunt> Debs work dififerently than he expected. 22:34 <@dasunt> Thus it is debian's fault? 22:34 <@dasunt> Oh, I understand. He's one of my customers! 22:34 <@sdodson> huh? 22:35 < eryc> why would you want to use packagekit? 22:35 <@dasunt> Maybe I misunderstand still. 22:35 <@dasunt> eryc: It is graphical, and, er, graphical? 22:36 <@sdodson> Because it intends to provide a sane interface across all package backends I guess. 22:36 < eryc> graphically? 22:37 < eryc> ..whats the point 22:37 <@dasunt> eryc: I guess the point is to have the same interface to systems that act wildly different. 22:37 <@sdodson> Desktop users. 22:37 < eryc> the same interface to the package manager 22:37 < eryc> and every thing else is completely fucvking different 22:38 <@dasunt> For exampe, updating debian packages will not change the version, only install security fixes. Updating redhat packages will. 22:38 < eryc> use puppet? 22:38 <@dasunt> Won't it be fun to have users discover that on their own? :p 22:38 <@sdodson> You guys don't agree that package installation, updates, and removal should have the ability to happen without requesting input from the user? 22:38 < eryc> i agree completely 22:38 <@dasunt> sdodson: Isn't that a problem with windows? That programs do install silently? :p 22:39 < eryc> i'm not sure why a GUI manager has that requirement 22:39 * sdodson kicks dasunt in the shins 22:39 < eryc> it requires a friggin display 22:39 <@sdodson> Because popping up a terminal window and asking questions sucks? 22:39 < eryc> who cares if someone has to touch the keyboard 22:40 <@dasunt> I'm more fond of the computer asking me if it has any doubt. 22:40 < eryc> you obviously were unlazy enough to open the pkg mgr in the first place with the mouse 22:40 < eryc> if this app was meant to run in the background and the admin silently updates things then maybe i could see some utility 22:41 < eryc> otherwise the whole point in choosing a different distro is the package manager 22:41 <@sdodson> I can be configured to do that. 22:41 * dasunt ponders 22:43 < cwire> just curious, anyone planning on driving form atlanta (or surrounding areas) to new york for hope this summer 22:43 <@sdodson> There seems to be a general consensus that debs requiring input via stdin are busted, even in the debian communicty. 22:44 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has quit ["I quitz"] 22:44 <@dasunt> Advance it through debian channels then. 22:46 < eryc> i can tell my mom if u want 22:47 < eryc> she can bring it up during bingo tuesday 22:47 <@dasunt> I just told my cat. 22:47 <@dasunt> I don't think she's going to help you though. 22:50 <@sdodson> That seems to be the plan. 22:50 <@sdodson> Appreciate youz guysz help. 22:51 < eryc> i just wrote a letter to my congressman 22:51 < eryc> and my dentist 22:52 <@sdodson> I'm flossing my teeth as we speak. 22:52 <@sdodson> Do I just come off as a complete douche? 22:52 <@sdodson> I think what I was saying was sensible. 22:52 < eryc> seems reasonable 22:53 < eryc> packages shall not require input 22:53 < eryc> i think thats chiseled somewhere 22:53 <@sdodson> It was the 11th commandment. 22:53 <@sdodson> moses sucks 22:53 <@sdodson> eryc: so you're using puppet? 22:54 < eryc> notsomuch 22:54 < eryc> i'm going to 22:54 <@sdodson> ya, that's basically the same state I'm in. 22:54 <@sdodson> I have it pushing out an motd that says the machine is managed by puppet and local changes may be lost but that's about it right now. 22:54 < eryc> ha 22:55 <@sdodson> It's a bit like the car newbs on the ricer forums that list what they've done to their car and what they plan to do. 22:55 <@sdodson> It's always like "Plans: Dual Super Chargers, Headers, Carbonfiber booster rocks, new suspension." "Done: Light weight shift knob, vinyl NOS stickers" 22:55 <@sdodson> s/rocks/rockets/ 22:56 <@sdodson> Man, I really feel like corydon just wasn't listening and if he had been it'd be so clear to him that he was wrong. 23:07 <@Corydon76-dig> I was listening, and I honestly don't give a flying fuck 23:08 <@sdodson> bummer dude 23:08 <@Corydon76-dig> No, really. I don't give a fuck. About the whole thing. 23:09 <@Corydon76-dig> My dog's not in that fight 23:12 < eryc> you mean your chicken 23:13 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has joined #se2600 23:13 -!- mode/#se2600 [+o omegix] by ChanServ 23:13 <@someninjamaster> has dolemite posted his pictures yet 23:13 <@someninjamaster> mine are up now 23:13 <@someninjamaster> http://www.someninjamaster.com/Site/Gallery/Pages/burgess_falls.html 23:32 <@sdodson> "If you have less than four hard disk drives installed in each product when powering up, a fault LED may light up on one power supply. This issue occurs because the power supply requires a minimum of four drives to draw the necessary power from the power supply to prevent its malfunction." 23:33 -!- hobbes615 [n=ryan@pool-71-255-235-132.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:48 -!- omegix [n=JC@76.73.237.206] has quit ["(bah)"] 23:48 <@dasunt> Jebus. 23:48 <@dasunt> My neighbors scared the shit out of me. 23:48 <@dasunt> They had someone show up at 11:48 pm. 23:49 <@dasunt> Looking for them. 23:49 <@dasunt> (They live downstairs) 23:50 <@brimstone> sdodson: what's that from? --- Log closed Mon Apr 14 00:00:40 2008